GOK,

In your last post to me, which I've answered below ("I'll take that as a yes" -- http://www.forum8.org/forum8/posts/8124.html), you said that Rawat has clearly implied he's divine:

Why was he called "Lord of the Universe" in the '70s?

Why was Maharaji described as "Greater than God" in the '70s?

Again, you can see how EV is confusing the usage of these terms in India with their apparent "faddish" enjoyment outside India.  But that's a small point.  Here, too, I have to say that this seems like obfuscation to me.  Yes, perhaps Indians do routinely pronounce the Guru as God or even greater than.  What matters is whether or not they really believe it.  Where's the evidence that they don't?  EV says that these statements can be difficult to understand in the West.  But it's a nonsequitor to say that they're mainstream in India, isn't it?  Mainstream or not, what do they mean? 

The fact is, India's a very religious place and there really are all these "Godmen" running around here, there and everywhere.  Please note, it's not as if ex-premies claim that Rawat's the only person who claims to be God, or even the only Indian guru who does.  But that seems to be how EV's trying to defend him here, isn't it?  And it doesn't really take us any closer to answering the question, does it?  Why was Rawat called "Greater than God"?  Great question, too bad they avoided it.

Then we have this silly answer.  I'm sure that no one familiar with Rawat could have ever imagined that EV would try this "Hollywood Squares" bit of mischief:

What about this song called Arti?

Another little-understood practise that came from India with Maharaji in the '70s is Arti, a song sung to the teacher or to members of his family. Arti is performed not only in front of a teacher or master but also on many other occasions: a son returning from a long journey, a sister honouring her brother or to honour the successful completion of an important endeavour. In a handful of occasions in the past decade, students in the West have sung Arti.   Have you ever heard such nonsense?  That arti, the most solemn imaginable expression of full-on devotion, the song that Rawat himself turbocharged just so we'd have no possible excuse for not getting every last scintilla of devotion flushed out from the recesses of our hearts, would be reduced and cheapened like this.  A stupid Hallmark Greeting card, good for all occasions.  Bus trips and middle school graduations.    Anyone reading the actual words of arti, aware of how we practised it -- what am I talking about, you guys still sing it to him once in a while, don't you? -- would see this answer as yet another blatant deception.  Why are they doing this, GOK?  Why?   Here's the next bastardization of reality, about darshan this time:   It has been reported that his students touch his feet. Is this true?   Expressing respect is not unique to students of Maharaji. Asian teachers of all disciplines, including martial arts, music and philosophy, conduct to this day a procession where students line up and pass by their teacher, bowing or touching his feet as a sign of respect and gratitude. Many Catholics express similar respect to their Cardinals and Bishops by kissing their rings. There is no great secret about this: Maharaji sits in a chair while people file by and pay their respects. Many simply walk by and smile, others simply say "thank you," others bow, and others choose to briefly touch his feet. In the 1970's the reception line called "darshan" was common in the West, but this practise is now only conducted on rare occasions, mostly in the Indian subcontinent where the practise is culturally accepted. There is no admission charge or fee connected to the reception line, and there is no recommendation or obligation in any way to participate.   To begin with, the question is a bit of a straw man.  We didn't just touch his feet, we kissed them.  Why doesn't it ask about that?  Hm, I wonder.  Don't you?   Anyway, once again the allusion to Catholics.  I'm not one myself and again I'm not sure if believers kiss Cardinals' and Bishops' rings but, if they do, what does that really mean and what are the implications here?  Where's God in all this?  Is God somehow represented by the ring?  How about the foot of a guru?    Also, do you agree that many people simply file by Rawat and say "thank you"?  That might be the case now but it sure wasn't when I was a premie.  Likewise, if there's no expectation to go through darshan now, that sure isn't the way it was back in the day, was it?  Or to not pay anything?  Well, there was never any fee as such but surely you remember those little envelopes, don't you?  I'm sure a man could retire several times over on those little fellers, don't you think?  Funny how EV forgot. Finally, there's this:   Is it true that some people venerate him? Some see him as a friend, some as a teacher, some as a Guru or Master. What does he claim to be? He recently told a journalist: "People used to call me Guru. I speak from my heart, and what happens is from one heart to another. I'm not trying to place myself above people. I am a human being. Many things have been said about me. Many of these things have come from people's own emotions, good or bad. I am proud to be a human being. I am very happy that I have this life. I am also happy that I can feel joy and pain like everyone else. Some people would love to put labels on me, but I am just me." You'll note that once again EV didn't answer the question.  Is it true that some people venerate Rawat?  The answer is yes.  But then look at Rawat's own comments.  He says that he's not trying to place himself above people, that he's just a human being.  However, look at what he said, not back in the seventies, but in 1990, when he chided his followers for forgetting that, as guru, he is actually no less than God himself.  You can quibble over what he's saying if you like but, however you put it, there's no way that the person who said this wasn't trying to place himself above others, is there?: Just see, today this word 'guru' has become a ridiculous term, a sort of a joke and people do not know what is a 'guru'. When I fly a plane in India, I often listen to the radio in the cockpit. There are talks going on between various pilots in the vicinity. Somebody would address: "Well guru, how are you?" Because they do not know the true meaning and implications. They don't understand the glory of a guru and Master. Because they have forgotten altogether. They have made such pseudo-guru who have put the whole system to disrepute. For instance, in schools they don't know the correct meaning of a couplet like: The radiance radiated from my beloved is of such an amazing hue ... They say, "Oh yes, because Kabir saw a sort of redness..." But what sort of redness was it? Such so-called gurus have marred the reputation of this institution. It has been ruined. Actually the guru is such a personality about whom it is said: I bow down to the lotusfeet of my Guru Maharaji who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form. And whose words are like sunbeams to disperse the accumulated darkness of gross ignorance. So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man. So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart. Yes, in my own heart! So what gives here, GOK?  Why is it that you first resisted admitting that Rawat has led people to think he's God but then you finally agreed?  Why does EV lie and dissemble this way, pretending to field these questions honestly but, honestly, doing anything but?  And tell me truly, what do you think the chances are that they're lying this way without Rawat's clear knowledge and consent?  For all we know, he thought up these bullshit non-answers himself but there's no way in the world that he hasn't at minimum authorized EV peddling them. Well?