Pat, here is my anonymous "premie response" to "premie response" 's post.

Dear PR, as a practicing premie, I have no wish to join this forum, nor do I wish to regale you with "an irrelevant quote", or a "transparent attempt to change the subject", nor offer you "irrelevant criticism" in reponse to your recent post. But through my longtime friend PatW, with whom I have had many a meaningful, if juxtaposed dialogue over the years, I feel I must respond to you on nothing more than a 'point of information' .

No doubt M's public persona has evolved over the years, and no doubt this is a good thing. Nonetheless we premies, especially oldtimers, are in my view, subject to idealised thinking when it comes to M, to the point of accepting the rewriting of our past as if it never happened. I have long found this worrying, and therefore, I offer you this response: It is NOT "only exes" who remember M claiming to be, if not "God" then "greater than human". Granted, the "Guru is greater than God" quote, originating as you say from Kabir, has a 'plausible' explanation when  based on an understanding of Indian spirituality and culture. But to an impressionable, rudderless 21 year old in the early 70's this quote, offered as it was with no such explanation, was a powerful contributor to the mindset which prompted my huge surrender to this "human being", for whom we gave up our homes, inheritances, careers, educations, marriages, the best years of our lives, often under serious peer pressure from M's most trusted (and feared,in some cases!) "honchos" .

Let me therefore draw your attention to the quote included in Hilltop's post "M has gone haywire..." which states:

 "To be here as an individual, and yet to be able to be next to that person who is everything , in which everything is, and he is in everything. Guru Maharaji. The Lord. All-powerful." From the accompanying picture I'd say this quote was late 70s, by the way.

 Yes, you can split hairs here and say"... but he is not saying "I am God" or using the "G" word". To which I say, ok, he is not SAYING that , but he is, most effectively STATING as much, and again, the effect of such words on me,was powerful. I bought it, hook line and sinker.(or is that "hook, sink, and liner?")

 I'm not trying to be divisive here, nor pour scorn on anyone, least of all M, but I feel strongly there is a need for acceptance here. This forum is, as I see it, set up by people who , for whatever reason, became dissillusioned, disenchanted , and are seeking 'closure' . Their quest is not helped by being branded a "hate group" by EV, and I agree with Glen Whittaker when he recently told me "we should be building bridges, not walls." Therefore, let us not be afraid of the facts, as they are, because if something is real it can withstand a challenge.

 It is also true that M said, circa 2000: "People ask me am I a prophet or a messiah. I smile and say 'No I am just a human being but if you want peace inside yourself I can help." 

So, thank God(!), he has moved on, it would appear. But denial that it WAS different is not healthy. Look, we are all, including M, subject to our conditioning as a child. I was brought up to believe I was a a no-hoper, with no self-esteem. It took 7 years in therapy in my 40's to even begin to rewrite my inner tapes and believe otherwise about myself. I do believe M was raised in a culture that gave him enormous self belief in his "divine power". That must be awfully difficult to put into perspective, and function with any normality. Imagine! I'm sure that is at the root of his denial of the past, which I HAVE witnessed, fairly recently, and it made for uncomfortable viewing.

 You see, to accept him as 'Lord of the Universe' was easy. One simply gave up any responsibility for one's own life, dreams or  thought processes. Whereas to accept him as a human being, with flaws, subject to stresses and strains, temptations etc. is far harder, because we have to take responibility, and can no longer rely on our 'image' of perfection in the One whom we needed to keep on a pedestal. That image becomes irrevocably flawed. But it is only as a "human" that any of us can be assessed. And then we can make an informed, proactive choice, to accept, or not, this person's gift, and to see that gift in the context of its being offered by a mere mortal, like you and I. Changes the picture drastically. And for the better I say. Brings it down to earth. But denial is NEVER the way to go. See how respected Bill Clinton remains in the American psyche because he admits and apologises for his errors? The man is not born , not even M, who doesn't make mistakes.

 Look at Van Morrison, the singer. I have it on first hand authority from people once  in his employ, that he is not, shall we say, the easiest, or nicest  person to be around (to put it politely!!) but if anyone offered me a ticket to his show, i'd be there!

 So, tell it like it IS, I say. As Jesus said "Know the truth and the truth shall set you free."