Joe,

I also believe there is something psychologically unrealistic about the concept of forgiveness as a respnsbility, because genuine forgiveness is not just something from the will, you have to be really ready to do it.  And this is especially true when the perpetrator doesn't even acknolwedge the injury caused.

You brought up an important and perennial subject, Joe, thanks.

Some people say that it's not possible to heal and move on with one's life after any kind of abuse without first forgiving the abuser.  It's an issue that twists many child abuse survivors into knots all of the time. Some feel guilty (or are made to feel guilty) when they simply are not ready to let go and move on with their lives.  They aren't healing fast enough for onlookers and are told that!  "Oh, just put that out of your mind" is a common suggestion.  My answer has always been "Yeah.  You think???"  As if, it's so easy to just put that out of one's mind!   It's really breathtakingly unbelievable how often people say that to adult child abuse survivors.  It's very nervy, too.  No one can walk in someone else's shoes.

Survivors/victims may not be ready to move on and they may need to feel some anger and other emotions about their abuse(r) and express it first (always must be in a safe way).   It's easy for someone to tell someone to "oh, just forgive and forget."  The word "forgive" also has the religious connotations attached to it that can be offputting.   One of the issues about this forum is that a lot of anger is expressed and Elan Vital has labelled it as hate.  I've said this all along:.  Anger and rage are not hate.  They are emotions just like any other emotions but they aren't hate.

One thing I can say for sure is this:  Telling someone to be forgiving is fruitless and insensitive, especially if someone is clearly not ready to move on with their life.  There's no instant mix and stir surrounding this particularly when you've got a grown woman or man who is still dealing with severe child abuse issues.  Ya just can't rush into and through recovery.

It's not necessary to forgive someone, but it is possible to forgive someone.  I have found that it's a choice each person is entitled to make for themself.  Forgiveness is possible even if an abuser doesn't acknowledge perpetrating the abuse, but because most abusers never acknowledge what they've done makes it so much harder.  Yet, it's still possible to move on.  

What does forgiving oneself mean?  IMO, it means to stop blaming oneself for being a victim of abuse and learing how to love oneself. It means different things to different people.  To exonerate oneself from blame.  Now that's liberating!

How does this fit in with Prem Rawat?  For one, he never admits his mistakes -- he can do no wrong.  Second, he's indoctrinated people into believing he can never be questioned and does no wrong.  Third, he's indoctrinated premies into believing that all the people around him are at fault for his errors.  There are so many binds involved in this it's sometimes difficult to grok.

How does this fit in with John?  I haven't a clue.  I don't know the man and it's not such a great idea to analyze him from near or from afar, IMO.