I was quoting PatD's penultimate sentence in his post above 'Re: Thugs, slaves and slave-drivers' that I responded to. That is why I put it in quote marks.

I'm not so sure you really do agree with me...I do think it's necessary and appropriate to go after what they say, especially when you can prove it's false.

I *do* agree with you (I think). People are personally accountable and responsible, and I think you are doing a good job drawing attention to the revisionism from leading premies.

Mike, because you actually do know these people, it might be hard for you to be objective

Maybe, but I think I am being objective. I am not excusing anyone.

... now your really can get information which wasn't available then.

Yes, I have made this same point repeatedly in my post above in this thread and recent posts elsewhere. Currently, with all the info available now, there is less excuse than there was previously to remain a premie with all the facts so public; and premies who now revise what went on, the history that they were part of, should be challenged (even if they are old-time friends).

My main point was to confront an attitude that I see occasionally on this Forum: that the cult was the product of Maharaji and a small group of PAMs/high-fliers/inner-circle premies; and that the rank-and-file, who did not really want any part of the cult baggage, were inveigled into it by these PAMs. That I reject. The rank-and-file were as much a part of it as any high-flier; if you were a premie, that means you thought Maharaji was the Lord, or at least God-like, you wanted to dedicate and surrender your life to him, to receive that grace, get out of your mind, find your heart, and get taken where He (upper case 'H') wanted to take you. If you did not feel that, or something very similar, you were not a premie as I understand the term.

And if you were a premie as I have defined it, then you were part of the group that went to programs, gave M his buzz as being part of the audience, contributed to his finance, made it possible for mahatmas/instructors/initiators to exist and visit your community. You bought into the whole thing, for goodness sake. To say now that you did not really feel these things and it was all other people's fault, is copping out (Brit English there). It may be true that you did not really feel those things, but if you acted *as if you did* you were part of it - surely?

That is the attitude I object to. Of course I am not denying personal responsibility, and some premies did more stupid things than others, and some perpetuated the cult more than others, and are still doing so now, and it is great that you are drawing attention to it.

But if you, or I, or anyone, was a premie, of whatever era, we were part of it, and must accept some responsibility. That is all I am saying.