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Posted by:
protoss ®

12/22/2023, 08:28:49
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I used to write here sometimes,  but stopped when some guy threatened me for life . But I read from time to time still ,  but what happened only post allowed now is to be negative for Prem  , where is the objectivity . Are you people 100 percent certain prem is fake ??






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Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/22/2023, 12:17:59
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oh my goodness, what on earth makes you think he might not be a fake?






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Fake
Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/22/2023, 14:47:19
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What do you mean by “fake”? Fake what?

What was your screen name in past?

Someone threatened your life? I have never seen an ex premie threaten someone’s life. I am sure there are creepy ex premies just as there are creepy premies. I have seen people who post negative things about Prem Rawat threatened on social media.

This is an internet message board for discussion of Prem Rawat. . At the top are the guidelines I copied them for you -

“This forum is for anyone with a genuine interest to discuss and read about Prem Rawat, also known as Maharaji. It is not intended as a replacement of any previous forums, and is not intended to represent any perceived community of former followers of Prem Rawat. It is also not intended to replace the community of followers of Prem Rawat that most of the posters were once part of. Yes, it is possible to find or renew friendships here, but as with any group of people there will be those who like each other, and those who don't. This isn't as important as the free exchange of information and opinions about the subject matter, that can help those interested form a more complete view of the Prem Rawat cult.

The forum is owned and administered by myself, John Brauns (posting here as JHB), the webmaster of ex-premie.org. I hope that readers and contributors to the forum will find it of value, but I recognise that this forum will not suit all tastes. Other forums are linked to the right.

Anyone may read the forum, but to post you will need to register. To do so, please send your preferred username and password to prtadmin@realemail.net" style="-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; font-family: "Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"; font-size: 21px;">prtadmin@realemail.net.

Forum Guidelinesprtadmin@realemail.net">Email Forum AdminPosting Problems?

Please keep this forum focussed on Rawat, his organisations, and how he affected our lives.
For off topic discussions please use prem-rawat-talk.org/nonrawat. Off-topic posts here may be transfered or deleted.”






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Re: Fake
Re: Fake -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/22/2023, 23:11:28
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I think you are unlikely to answer "fake what?" 

But I had a point asking you to. He's claimed to be so many things. As Gail said on Greedy Guru "he's had more makeovers than the Kardashians"

So fake Perfect Master? Fake Lord? Fake Master? Fake Teacher? Fake Peace Ambassador? Fake family man? 

Are you going to claim he never told us the things he did about his divinity? Can you ask people to surrender their lives to you and then just be a peace ambassador without explanation or apology?  

Have you ever seen Prem Rawat take responsibility for anything he has ever done that has hurt or fooled another person? I can't find one recorded instance. He blames India, the mahatmas, the premies, the press -- he seems incapable of blaming himself.

Can you blame him for one thing he ever did wrong?

Fake what?   Something akin to divine? Or do you believe he is what he presents himself to be to the public, a peace teacher and ambassador? If he's just that, than isn't he a fake? Since he denies it was ever all about him? If he's trying to whitewash his past to the public; isn't that an indication he's presenting a false image? 

He's a living breathing human being. He's claimed to be many things he never was. Is that a fake?  

No excuses for threats. But read Susiewasapremie, Don Johnson and Jacques Sandoz threads on Facebook where people are threatened in the past year.  Why does nearly everyone who knows the worst about Prem fear for their lives and safety? What does that say about what people believe about him? Is that the work of a Peace Ambassador? Terror of retribution?

What does Prem Rawat mean to you? What is the thing you like the most about him? What is your biggest criticism of him? 

 And since he has claimed to be so many things- what do you believe him to be?








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Re: Fake
Re: Re: Fake -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/23/2023, 06:38:10
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Thank you Susan. So well put. You've left no wiggle room. I would extend your questions to all the lurkers on this forum. Watching them squirm, instead of glee, my heart would ache for/with them because it really is that sad and painful to grapple with the truth.





Modified by lakeshore at Sat, Dec 23, 2023, 06:40:29

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Re: Fake
Re: Re: Fake -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
protoss ®

12/23/2023, 14:07:54
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I was never close to Prem , never spoke to him . But I have Knowledge since 50 years. And I have seen him now hundreds of times, and I know what I feel when listening to him live. And yes someone threatened me I know who it was and no one here protested .This site is only for negativity about Prem nothing else. 






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Re: Fake
Re: Re: Fake -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/23/2023, 15:33:49
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'This site is only for negativity about Prem nothing else.'

Well, no. That would be really boring.

This site is about uncovering the truth. 

Weren't you ever a seeker of truth? When did that stop? You'll just go with the feeling you get when you hear him speak, and ignore the tons of evidence here and on other sites describing what Prem Rawat is really like when he is off stage?

I've had the 'knowledge' 51 years, seen him hundreds of times. I know what I used to feel when I was listening to him live. It is liberating to be no longer under that spell.

Sorry you felt threatened. There's no need for that.






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Re: Fake
Re: Re: Fake -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
eDrek ®

12/23/2023, 15:37:47
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Ok, you say this: 'This site is only for negativity about Prem nothing else.'

If so then why don't you 'MOVE ON'. Seems like you're stuck in the past.






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Please answer
Re: Re: Fake -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/23/2023, 16:29:16
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When you ask if we ( and there is no we here it’s a message board … you are now one of us because you have posted here) think he is a fake, a fake what?

Fake what? 







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Re: Fake
Re: Re: Fake -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tommo ®

12/23/2023, 17:17:47
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Well that is really the nub of it? You have a belief that your feelings provide an accurate guide to the character of a man. Leading you to completely trust Prem Rawat and believe that everything he says is true/ significant for you in some way.  Most folk who post here have come to the conclusion that feelings are not in fact a reliable guide and that it is anyway unwise to put too much faith in anyone - and especially one who - is in fact - someone that you don't really know.  That is all there is to it. Caveat emptor as in so many things.

This is just a simple point of disagreement






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Re: Fake
Re: Re: Fake -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Aquinas ®

12/23/2023, 18:34:21
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The thing is protoss that you can get pretty much the same intense feelings from lots of different things.

Back in the days when Bal Bhagwan was considered ok, I got incredibly strong feelings from him - and that was ok at the time. But then he and the "holy mother" became the bad guys (according to prem) so we weren't allowed to feel good about them.

I bet you could get really good feelings from lots of things. Just give it a try. The feelings that you think you get from prem are actually inside you - they are your feelings but you are giving him the credit for them. Confusing I know, but it's not really much different than the people who fainted at the Beatles or other pop stars. The heightened and intense feelings are inside YOU! Don't give the charlatan credit for what is basically your own body's responses. 

Good luck at getting away from him. 






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Re: Aquinas: a Q&A
Re: Re: Fake -- Aquinas Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/23/2023, 19:44:42
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I was recently speaking to a person interested in NRMS and I was telling her about that very thing in DLM. The Holy Family get black-balled by GMJ and instantly not a good word ever said about them again. They were in their minds. Forgotten. Into a black hole.

Destroy all the magazines and tapes? No problem.

This Knowledge cannot be spread throughout the world without these great souls the Mahatmas. All back to India these fakes and rapists. They were never mentioned again.

Everything could change from one day to the next, no questions asked. 

Then I thought, from one day to the next (almost), Rawat completely changed his vocabulary dropping off lots of words that had been very important in his speeches and beginning to create a new version of his claims without the Indian backstory. Maybe they edited out his fluffs. I've got one audio tape of an early 80s satsang that still had a single person shouting Bolie Shri Satguru d (and then in her mind, whoops I'm the only person about to shout Ki Jai, I must not have heard an agya, are we back in 1976? how embarassing) at the end of the tape. Someone must have forgot to cut it off the end of the tape.

In your days skulking about the stage, did you ever see him ever use a prompter or a list of points to get him back on track or anything like that at all?






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Re: Aquinas: a Q&A
Re: Re: Aquinas: a Q&A -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Aquinas ®

12/24/2023, 20:04:53
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Prembio - During the time I was at Visions, I never saw him refer to notes or a speech and he never used a prompter. I think he would have considered those things beneath him, as whatever he said he probably believed was divinely inspired. It was all very "stream of consciousness" just like the early days of satang in the community. We never used notes or speeches, just 'spoke from the heart'.

I personally thin the reason that his satsangs were so bad is because he was so undereducated. His vocabulary was limited, as were his experiences of life in the early days, so he couldn't really do much more than repeat like a parrot what his father had said, or whatever nonsense he was thinking about at the time.

Let's face it, he was never much of a speech maker.






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Re: Aquinas: a Q&A
Re: Re: Aquinas: a Q&A -- Aquinas Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/25/2023, 21:06:12
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For me, while he was just parrotting what he'd been taught and repeating the boring Indian stories he wasn't too bad. I mean how much would you expect of a 13 or 14 year old who spoke English so poorly? Once he got some confidence and starting talking about whatever nonsense he was thinking about I really lost respect for him and thought he just was pretty dumb. He can still give a speech that makes you think he's demented but he can now also give speeches that are almost sensible. He's still uneducated but he's picked up enough information so he can talk like he's a man of the world. I think it's like when he mentions Socrates. Does he know anything but He was Greek and said "Know thyself?"






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Re: What You Feel
Re: Re: Fake -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/23/2023, 19:20:47
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You were never close to Prem? You never spoke to him? Wow, you must be a very unique pwK.

I recommend you stop going to Prem Rawat's speeches and start attending the World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE) events. You're heart will start pumping and you'll realize you're alive not snoozing in a bottomless pit of boredom.

I think I remember when someone threatened you before. Someone posted threatening you with eternal damnation. I don't know who it was but I don't think they had the power unless it was Guru Maharaj Ji, the Lord of the Universe, because you were making him look bad.






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Re: Fake
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Posted by:
lesley ®

12/24/2023, 04:23:53
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I joined in 1973 and left in 2000.  Back then it was enough for me to read the old satsangs that are on EPO and go wtf, things have changed so much since the early days - immediately I realised Maharaji was a faker and he had been leading us down the garden path.

Now it's 23 years on from then and it's a lifetime isn't it.  Your sincerity and belief in him isn't fake.  

But what happens as reality seeps in through the cracks, when the belief that Prem Rawat is a special person for you takes in a wider view of the 'Holy' Rawat family where since leaving the cult his older brothers have done better than him and it's their turn to rub his nose in it.

Believing in Maharaji is a big belief. 

As Aquinas said, it is your own body responses.  Yes, of course you don't walk round feeling the same way as you do in an event - that is the amplification of being in a mob, simple as that.  Guru Maharaj Ji and those Indian Mahatmas promised big but all they really delivered was some rebranded yoga techniques.

As John said, it's about the truth. 

I dunno how to put it or really quite understand it but I do know so many people corroborate my experience that I don't want to live a lie, even unwittingly - however painful and shocking it is a relief to lose it - better out than in as they say.

 






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Re: Fake
Re: Re: Fake -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/24/2023, 05:33:07
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"And I have seen him now hundreds of times, and i know what I feel when listening to him live."

Hi protoss,

You've been given a lot to think about and I hope you take the kind and caring words of the others here seriously. Other than embellish, I can't add much to what's been said. Instead, I write as much for the many hopefully curious readers here who never post.

We've all felt "that feeling" hundreds of times when listening to Prem Rawat live (and as Acquinas indicated, mistakenly attributed it to him). That feeling, combined with all the reinforcement of practicing, participating and keeping in touch (practicing Knowledge) kept us going back to see him over and over again. And yet, here we are, proclaiming it to be a cult and Prem Rawat to be a fake.

Fake what? For me, a fake guru, master or teacher who teaches or "reveals" truth, god, source of life, peace or anything special at all... let alone "ambassador" or even a genuine advocate for peace.

Fake because he's two-faced: he says one thing out of one side of his mouth and acts in an opposite manner out of the other side of his mouth behind the curtain. Excessive alcohol consumption, heavy smoking, pot, sexual exploitation, grossly excessive and greedy materialism, abusiveness and cruelty are only a few examples of what caused people who witnessed it to leave in disgust: anything he could use to fill the void of his own lack of the "peace" he proclaims to offer.

Fake because the techniques of meditation he claimed to be uniquely his to teach or "reveal" have been debunked and shown to be identical, common or similar to those taught for eons by other so-called guru's or masters.

Fake because in my experience, he's been sadistic, abusive and even contemptuous of his followers. I know that's difficult to fathom, but objectively - going so far as to order that anyone in a position to do so should move into an ashram and take a lifetime vow of poverty, chastity and obedience (to him!) as the best way to "realize" his (debunked) Knowledge - that's exactly how I was treated. Moreover, after a decade of that, he abrubtly closed the ashrams with no advance notice, explanation, apology or assistance to all those destitute people he caused to be dependent on him for literally everything.

Perhaps the best way I can frame all this is by asking you how you would feel if you found out that Prem Rawat laughs at you and mocks you behind your back for being so gullible and easy to manipulate? Whether that's true or not (and I believe it is), in my estimation it's tantamount to my experience of his attitude towards me and countless others over the years. I've spent years on this forum citing examples. To cite a few, is poking naked followers' penis's with a stick and pouring motor oil over them consistent with the man who appears on the stage?

To say something positive, Prem Rawat isn't always wrong. "Listen to your heart" comes to mind... that inner voice or intuition that guides you. The one that resonates when you're listening to him. The problem is that if you're like me and so many other former followers, that process becomes short-circuited (disabled) such that suddenly you're only able to acknowledge one voice while shutting out all the others saying anything contrary to what you want to hear: like removing batteries from your smoke detectors. Listening to your heart often disables objective and rational thinking, intelligence even. Add to that the emotional paralysis that comes from the fear of coming to terms with the possibility that you've been deceived after investing so much of your time, love and energy for... fifty years.

That's the very portrait of a cult and especially personality cults like this one. It's a sad and tragic situation, which is why my heart goes out to anyone caught-up in it. The good news, and I can't emphasize this enough, is the experience on the other side - free from the cult indoctrination and your own blockages - is by far more free, real and exhilarating.

Sincerely and for what it's worth,

Bob
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Post Script: Once I learned about all this, I had no choice other than to recognize and set aside my selfish need to feel good, and instead stand up for the overarching values of basic right and wrong and human decency. This is why so much as been said about the corruption of values in people under the influence of cults.






Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Dec 24, 2023, 08:26:29

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clarification of above post!
Re: Fake -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

01/13/2024, 16:40:57
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every word after "I copied for them for you" is a cut and paste from the forum introduction.

Someone understandably read this as me saying I was an administer of the forum. I am not and never have been. The quote begins "this forum..." end "...transfered or deleted"

Sorry for the misunderstanding I wish I had seen how easily the quotation marks could be missed when I  pasted the quote for Protoss.

Thank you JHB! A very hard job! And thanks to friend who asked me if I was an administrator! Yikes! No, but I admire everyone who has ever done the job!

Look at top of page its exact quote from it.









Modified by Susan at Sat, Jan 13, 2024, 16:43:29

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Re: the posts here
Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/22/2023, 18:10:38
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Hi protoss,

I'm shocked and saddened that anyone would threaten you in such a way and I can't imagine anyone I've come across on this forum doing so. I'm also not aware of any posts that are not allowed unless they're way off-topic or clearly disengenuous or trolling in nature.

If you've read here, you must be aware that there are two Prem Rawats. The public facing Prem adored by his adherents and the man behind the curtain who had people close to him sworn to secrecy and made to sign non-disclosure agreements if they wanted to remain close to him. Fortunately, many of them broke their vows of secrecy in the higher interest of warning others about Prem's behaviors that stood in stark contrast to his "message of peace."

As for objectivity, my posts are based on thirty-six years of practicing Knowledge with all my heart and soul; from nearly a decade in Guru Maharaji's ashram to the contemporary era of significant local and regional finances in support of Prem Rawat and his events. My objectivity stems from Prem's crushing abuse and exploitation of me as a premie, as well as the crushing realization - after I read the truth exposed by so many eye-witnesses - that I'd dedicated my life and invested everything in such a hypocritical and deceitful man purporting to posess and reveal the source of my existence. This perspective, of course, came about only after I was able to break free from my cult indoctrination, i.e., finally free and able to look back and see things... objectively.

To answer your questions, 1) negative posts are certainly not the only posts allowed; 2) my objectivity stems from my experience and acceptance of trustworthy eye-witnesses; and 3) yes, I am 100% certain Prem is fake.

Anyone who posts in support of Prem (positively) should be prepared to back-up their support in a rational and responsible manner, which typically requires acceptance and discussion of deeply troubling and uncomfortable facts about Prem. Many who have tried come across as too steeped in their "leave no room for doubt" cult indoctrination (the fear of and taboo against criticizing their master) to be taken seriously.

I remember "protoss" when you posted a few times many years ago. Welcome back!

Bob






Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Dec 22, 2023, 18:12:15

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Re: the posts here
Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Aquinas ®

12/22/2023, 18:38:34
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Dear protoss

Objectivity is why I know that prem rawat, AKA Guru Maharaji AKA Maharaji, etc. is a fake.

Oh, that and all the years I was a member of his insidious cult and the times I served as a community coordinator and later as a part-time instructor. then working for Visions International where I learned first hand just what a fake he is.

I am sorry for you if you still think he is NOT a fake. Because he is. I wish you all success is learning the truth and being able to accept it and move beyond his cult. 

As for the threats, I don't know anything about that. In all the years I have been reading (and occasionally posting) here, I have never seen anyone threaten someone's life. Could you have misunderstood a simple disagreement? I have seen premies threaten the livelihood of ex-premies and had some experience of that myself back in the early 2000s. that is one of the reasons I stopped posting for years, so I understand how threats can be intimidating. But I don't think that anyone posting here now would do such a thing. At least I hope not.

Anyway, just keep reading and I am sure you will come to your own conclusions.






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Re: I wasn't sure until
Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/22/2023, 22:35:47
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I watched a video in which he admitted it

There were only a few years when I thought he might have something to offer because I was trusting the words of others and then there were decades when I knew he was a useless guru, a shit and a liar but I wasn't sure if he'd started as a fake until I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears from the Master Himself. It's on Youtube






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Re: the posts here
Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
protoss ®

12/25/2023, 07:05:40
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I realize that my  use of the word feel was wrong here, maybe i should have said experience instead, also I agree that for so many pwk  Knowledge  is a cult or religion, and I have always kept my distance to those people ,  so you are right that knowledge is a cult for a lot of people , but for sincere and people with courage it is not , it is something that has to be experienced. Also I want to apologize if i have made anyone upset here because of my posts . If so please tell me and i will never post here again. All the best to you all






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Re: the posts here
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Posted by:
13 ®

12/25/2023, 08:03:14
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'for so many pwk  Knowledge  is a cult or religion, and I have always kept my distance to those people ,  so you are right that knowledge is a cult for a lot of people , but for sincere and people with courage it is not , it is something that has to be experienced'

See the irony in this? 

A bit more courage and sincerity, and you'll be fine. You'll see it's wall to wall cult. No gaps for a few courageous and sincere people.






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Re: the posts here
Re: Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
KarenK ®

12/25/2023, 09:11:34
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Hi Protos,
Something I have always loved about this Forum is this is a place to have concepts poked! There is no need to apologize or leave. I really like when practicing premies come to the Forum. It challenges my beliefs too! Prem's AGYA to "leave no room for doubt in your mind," is a recipe to promote and enforce cult mind. I had a lot of cosmic, blissful, and mystic experiences in the cult that I attributed to Prem aka LOTU. But then I have had a lot more since I exed out.  I go back and try to reexamine what was "real" and not. How much of it was created by my emotional ferver? 
Why do the premies that have been practicing for DECADES not ever realize knowledge? Can you name ANYONE that has realized K? IMO, most commit what is termed "spiritual bypass." This is where a person adopts a spiritual practice, but never does the deep Shadow Work required to face, confront, deal with all aspects of Self. Instead they tend to project on to others what is "within inside" themselves that they fear to face. When I first joined the Forum in 2000 there were a fair number of active premies here and some were consumed with vitriol. I do not find your posts to be like that. I feel that to question anyone's beliefs here is great, as long as you are polite about it. You have been. That is a good thing. I welcome challenging dialogue .

Karen Kirschbaum






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Re: the posts here
Re: Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/25/2023, 11:48:54
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As Karen indicated, you are certainly welcome here and I can't see how you may have in any way offended anyone. Certainly not me.

"you are right that knowledge is a cult for a lot of people, but for sincere and people with courage it is not"

As difficult as this is to say, that statement is a good example of how people trapped in cults often think about it. Such a person can't accept that it's a cult because doing so would place them in a horrible predicament. It takes tremendous courage for such a person accept that they're in a cult because they, of all people, as intelligent, sincere, courageous and good as they are - after investing decades of their life - might be wrong about the most basic and important thing in their life, perhaps their hightst priority even. Consequently, they'll go to great lengths to justify and rationalize their involvement.

It was devastating for me to come to terms with it. It took more sincerity, courage, soul searching and gut-wrenching honesty with myself than anything else I've ever dealt with. The question becomes what does it take to push one over the edge enough to sit down and really face it?

For me, there were many things, a few of which I mentioned in my earlier post. One of the biggest things, however, happened to be exactly what you said: "but for sincere and people with courage it is not." That's exactly how I approached it. When the going got a little bumpy, I doubled down with even more sincerity, even more courage, even more effort, even more internal dialog with Prem Rawat, even more of everything associated with being a good premie, devotee or person with Knowledge. I did everything Prem Rawat guided or taught me to do sincerely from my heart with courage, commitment and... devotion.

As 13 said: "a bit more courage and sincerity, and you'll I'll be fine."

But I wasn't. In fact, being responsibly steeped in the real world in the middle of a demanding career, it made matters worse. Why isn't this working? Why am I not on an even keel? Why am I on an even more intense roller coaster of feelings, emotions and yes, experience? And my so-called experience was so darned personal, private and isolating that it wasn't doing me or anyone else much practical good. I couldn't even talk about it with anyone! Frankly, after thirty-six years of that, I had to accept that there was no end in sight; no realization or even a lasting, grounded stability. It was only after I was able to break free from "leave no room for doubt" that I was able to be honest (and objective) with myself. 

What mostly concerns me is your apparent willingness to, as (once again) 13 put it: "just go with the feeling you get when you hear him speak, and ignore the tons of evidence here and on other sites describing what Prem Rawat is really like when he is off stage." Add to that your apparent reluctance to answer Susan's question: a fake what?

What do you think of - or how do you feel about - the tons of evidence describing what Prem Rawat is really like when he is off the stage? And I'll add this: is your experience worth overlooking all that and giving Prem Rawat a free pass in exchange for it? Are you willing to contemplate what that might say about a person willing to make such a trade?

It's a horrible predicament and again, my heart goes out to anyone caught-up in it. You may perceive these posts as negative, but the posters here were the only people with enough heart and courage to help me and many others through it.

Few things in my life required more sincerity, courage and honesty than leaving this cult and I'm a better person for it.

None of this is easy.

Be well and thank you for being here!






Modified by lakeshore at Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 12:02:56

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PWK's and realization of K
Re: Re: the posts here -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
KarenK ®

12/25/2023, 12:16:15
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So this is addressed to the PWK's in Prem's org that monitor this Forum. Like me, many of you received K 50 or so years ago. I don't recall ANY premies claiming to have realized the great K as Prem claims to have done in a few weeks. Does a realized premie exist? If not, what is the point of the whole thing? 
I would love for a "realized" premie to come her to this Forum, not to be attacked, but to have a spirited frank conversation. I really want to know what it means to have realization! Is it God/Unity consciousness? Is it total surrender to the former Lotu? What is it like to remember the Name 24/7? 
I really want someone to tell me!







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Re: PWK's and realization of K
Re: PWK's and realization of K -- KarenK Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
protoss ®

12/25/2023, 13:03:04
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That is a very good question Karen .  I did make effort to remember the name 24/7 and was happy to wake up in the morning and still remember it . For myself i realize and then  i forget . But which premie would like to write here and then be attacked by 10 expremies . How fun is that ?






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Re: PWK's and realization of K
Re: Re: PWK's and realization of K -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/25/2023, 14:44:52
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In 2000 when I arrived on this forum it was not for the faint hearted - between Jim on the one hand demanding you post your real name and Catweasel on the other hand who's posts were very heavy-going.

You might note that Jim used his real name and Catweasel did not make himself known.

Jim felt pretty scathing to me but it was nowhere near as bad as reading Catweasel and back in those early days of exiting when the fog of premie thoughts would descend I would switch on the computer and read the forum, the fog would lift and I have a memory of feeling grateful to Jim for keeping up with the logical arguments. 

So I hope you are not feeling attacked here, Protoss - really we are an exceptionally nice crew. 

I gave up with the 24/7 after a couple of hours of trying.  I was a teenager!

But really who would even want to focus on the coming and going of their breath for longer than a few minutes, it reminds me of the old image of the hypnotist - now follow this watch as I swing it back and forth, back and forth, your eyes are getting heavy, keep watching back and forth, back and forth, now you can close your eyes and sleep, Guru Maharaj Ji is everything to you.






Modified by lesley at Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 15:53:54

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Re: PWK's and realization of K
Re: Re: PWK's and realization of K -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
KarenK ®

12/25/2023, 14:53:35
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Please tell me how I am attacking you? I just want to have a good conversation with you! Can we agree to disagree without being disagreeable? Does someone challenging your POV threaten you? I am not trying to put you down!






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Re: PWK's and realization of K
Re: Re: PWK's and realization of K -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/25/2023, 15:19:10
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Hi Protoss,

I hope I didn’t cause bad feelings for you. There are a fair number of people who have very different opinions here. I don’t want anyone to pretend to feel they can join the discussion. No one. Please feel free to say how you really feel and what your experiences really have been.

The concept that others are in a cult; not me- isn’t just common in Prem Rawat followers it’s common in NXVIM, FLDS, Twin Flames- almost every group others see as a cult. I am not denying your experience or what you feel. Just asking you to think about that. Maybe put yourself in the heart of someone who is in a different cult and how that person might think or feel.

It is a less contentious group posting here now. That might change, as it’s not a cult, unless banned IP I think anyone can post. But I am sincerely saddenned you were threatened. I know what that is like. It feels bad. My suggestion. Do what I do. If someone threatens you take their words, save them, post them- it says far more about them than you.


Merry Christmas; Happy Holidays! 

And again, when you asked, “are you 100% sure Prem is fake” … fake what? What about Prem are you concerned most we think is fake? 

Respectfully

Susan






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Re: PWK's and realization of K
Re: Re: PWK's and realization of K -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/25/2023, 15:34:07
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Hi protoss,

I'm curious. Do you feel that the replies to your posts are personal attacks? It's confusing to me that you would apologize if you offended anyone and then say what you said, which really could be viewed as offensive. I know all of this can be a bit overwhelming and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. Nevertheless, unless I misunderstood your comment, if you feel you're being attacked, I'm wondering why you would feel that way. Requests to make an effort to respond to uncomfortable questions are not attacks.

Speaking for myself, as a premie and when I first stopped practicing Knowledge, I was terrified of confrontation. I'd spent my adult life (ten years in the ashram) relying on Knowledge ( "the sword of His Knowledge and the shield of His Grace" - Prem Rawat's words, not mine) to protect and shield me from uncomfortable situations (actually "the world," but I'll save that for another day ). I still avoid them but not nearly as much as I did when I was dependent on Maharaji for all aspects of my well-being.

I'm also not sure what your motivations are to post here and it's really none of my business. I just hope it's not for the thrill or noble cause of standing alone in defense of Prem Rawat and Knowledge in what you might perceive to be hostile territory - thus viewing the replies through that filter. I've personally made a sincere and respectful effort and I was looking forward to a sincere and constructive response. And that is not an attack.






Modified by lakeshore at Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 16:02:52

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Re: PWK's and realization of K
Re: Re: PWK's and realization of K -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/27/2023, 20:48:22
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As a kid I tried to avoid uncomfortable situations but there were so many uncomfortable situations being involved in Divine Light Mission and having young Prem Rawat as your guru that I toughened up.






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After 20 years I realised Knowledge
Re: PWK's and realization of K -- KarenK Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/25/2023, 13:03:31
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wasn't even a thing...






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Re: After 20 years I realised Knowledge
Re: After 20 years I realised Knowledge -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/25/2023, 14:47:12
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that's so true.  

all those mahatmas had was a grab bag of parlour tricks.





Modified by lesley at Mon, Dec 25, 2023, 14:48:20

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Re: After 20 years I realised Knowledge
Re: After 20 years I realised Knowledge -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/25/2023, 15:37:30
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Yep…isn’t that ironic? Knowledge is just a concept. Prem’s go to label for anything that threatens his scam. 






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It's all my fault!
Re: PWK's and realization of K -- KarenK Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/26/2023, 07:17:02
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H Karen,

While you're waiting, I wanted to add something to my post.

I know you were much like me and others here in terms of your extraordinary efforts, devotion and sincerity. After I described doubling-down with everything my heart could muster with no significant results other than more intensification, which took me further away from peace and stability, something occurred to me.

You can bet the roof over your head that Prem Rawat and his defenders will never blame him or Knowledge. Instead, they'll blame me and come out with their laundry list of reasons why I wasn't experiencing anything resembling the "Knowledge of all Knowledges" that every perfect master from Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and all the others purportedly revealed.

- I had concepts
- I was in my mind
- I didn't "let go"
- I wasn't surrendered, open or empty enough
- I wasn't in touch with my thirst
- I must've had other issues, i.e., I needed a doctor instead
- I wasn't doing the techniques properly
- My three legged stool wasn't in balance
- After Prem Rawat said that realizing Knowledge is easier than wearing eye-glasses, I didn't get the memo that it got switched to a life-long process of unfolding
- I had too many expectations... all Knowledge does is "make the ride smoother"
- It's a long spell of cloudy days... be patient and the sun will come out soon
- It's good enough just be on the boat, sit back and leave everything to the captain
- I came for the wrong reasons!

And my personal favorite:

The soft pads of my finger tips were a few millimeters off the exact spot they needed to be when practicing the third technique, which is why so much emphasis was placed on it during those countless Knowledge reviews.

Sorry... I had to toss that in.







Modified by lakeshore at Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 07:26:49

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Re: It's all my fault!
Re: It's all my fault! -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/26/2023, 09:51:08
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'The soft pads of my finger tips were a few millimeters off the exact spot they needed to be when practicing the third technique'

Did I miss something? Where did your finger pads go on the third technique? My third technique had nothing to do with fingers!

We were all shown random techniques, like those cults where everyone gets their own mantra? Is that why we weren't allowed to discuss the techniques, in case we found out we all had different ones?

Damn, no wonder I'm not a realised soul.






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My mistake...
Re: Re: It's all my fault! -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/26/2023, 12:12:18
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I meant the first technique, the one called light before it became a number.

Seriously (as if that's possible with such an off-the-wall topic), I always wondered why Maharaji made such a big deal about how and where to precisely place your fingers as if not doing it exactly as he demonstrated could prevent you from seeing light and becoming a realized soul. As if he wanted everyone to stand beneath him in awe and marvel at his perfect mastery of such a simple and insignificant thing. As if a silly millimeter off could make a huge difference. I remember repeating the process a dozen times or so in Knowledge reviews to try to get it just right, afraid that I might be off just a little or that there might be something wrong with my anatomy.

It's funny because I dream in color in the dark with no fingers at all. Apparently, that light doesn't count. It's just ordinary synapses firing instead of those divine ones. 







Modified by lakeshore at Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 12:21:17

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why the light
Re: My mistake... -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/26/2023, 17:19:23
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There has been much speculation on the forum of eye injuries and lawsuits.  It changed from the painful eye pressure I was initiated with to the second 1977 wave already giving K reviews with "NO EYE PRESSURE!!!" even my Mr. Mind as a teen wondered if someone had been injured. 

The leaked Mahatma mac had much discussion of contact lenses. I wonder if that ever caused an injury?

I wondered too, if anyone had ever occluded their airway with a too forceful attempt at nectar? 

Such a stupid cult. 

Thumbs in your ears can be helpful for equalizing pressure with altitude changes I have noticed.

Pissed at the cult that such a helpful thing as focusing on my breath was associated with coercive control. I got over that but it took awhile. 








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Eye injuries from the light technique
Re: why the light -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Aquinas ®

12/26/2023, 18:56:43
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I am one of those people who had her eyes squeezed out of shape by the light technique. Padarthanand was VERY heavy handed with this technique and I tried to repeat his pressure when I practised (trying to squeeze out that light I think). 

I was 21 at the time and had never had eye problems but about a year later I was seeing an optometrist and being prescribed glasses for astigmatism. Later I read things like this:

Rubbing Your Eyes Could Be a Factor. Rubbing your eyes is one habit that could cause astigmatism. In fact, frequent rubbing could eventually change the shape of your corneas. Rubbing also increases your risk of keratoconus, a condition that makes the corneas thin and cone-shaped.

So yes, those stupid techniques could and did cause injuries to people's eyes, mine included. I only wish there was some way to prove the cause - oh boy, what a class action lawsuit.






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It writes itself
Re: Eye injuries from the light technique -- Aquinas Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/26/2023, 19:54:54
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Were you a member of the Divine Light Mission from 1973-1982 and suffered eye injury from the light technique? You may be entitled to compensation for your medical bills, pain and suffering, lost wages and lost enjoyment of life. Call Cultbuster, Snottittlebrat and Glassyeyes for a free no cost to you evaluation. No fee unless you win. No fee unless we win. 

Edit- eye injury is serious, and I am sad this happened to people. I don’t think it’s unlikely at all there have been lawsuits like this and settlement agreements.






Modified by Susan at Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 20:01:00

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Re: It writes itself
Re: It writes itself -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Aquinas ®

12/26/2023, 22:56:34
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And prem would just blame the mahatma for using too much pressure (against the instructions of the perfect master). So then we would try to sue a person with no visible source of income or assets? 

But it would be fun to try! LOL






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absolutely
Re: Re: It writes itself -- Aquinas Top of thread Post Reply Forum
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Susan ®

12/26/2023, 23:52:00
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He made the mahatmas, trained the mahatmas, fired the mahatmas, had all the power... but he never takes any responsibility for anything that goes wrong. Great trait in a pilot. 

An Ex-Unity School Teacher reports Posted on forum V

Date: Wed, Jul 12, 2000 at 04:18:37 (GMT)


From: Unity school ex


Subject: Jagdeo's 'children's satsang'


Dear forum posters - I have only learned abut Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in the last 6 months or so. I do have something to add; although I didn't actually see him do anything, I do know that he did some of this stuff at the Unity School in Denver during the 1977-78 period.


I was a teacher at that time, and devoted premie. I volunteered to be a camp counselor for the summer at the Unity School, as I had the time off from my regular teaching job, and was very interested in doing service at the school and learning more about the waldorf philosophy as well. I worked there for two summers.


One day I learned that Jagdeo did special 'children satsangs' at the schoolThis seemed odd to me, and I questioned one of the other teachers about it. She replied that it was so beautiful that Jagdeo took such a special interest in children and regularly did these. He would get all the children in a room, turn off the lights, have them lie down in a circle, and tell them stories. He told them not to talk about it with others. The teacher told me it was 'kids satsang'.


I felt this was very wierd, as I clearly remember that Maharaji gave a number of satsangs about how we should not tell kids what to believe. He used to say that adults always wanted to jam their beliefs down the throats of kids and that he didn't like it. I agreed with this, and remembered numerous times that he had talked about this, so when I heard about 'kids satsang' it immediately raised a red flag.


I asked another teacher about this, but they didn't know about it, and I gave up trying to find out more. But I will tell you this - it's quite likely that he was playing his games with the kids at Unity School in Denver in those days (late 70's) and there are probably kids from that era who were abused by him.


It makes me sick to think of this. How can m stay silent about all this? These are the children of the people who gave their lives to him, lock, stock and barrel. If one of his kids were there, would he be so smug and silent?


You sicken me, Maharaji.


Divine Light Mission publication Golden Age February 1977


http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/dlm_pubs/goldenage/36/international.html

International: Golden Age No. 36


No. 36, February 1977


image


MAHARAJ JI ON THE MOVE

Quite a few months back now, Guru Maharaj Ji told some premies in Denver that he was "going to start getting into Divine Light Mission." Perhaps at that

time they wondered what exactly Maharaj Ji meant-how much could one person do? The answer to that question is becoming plainer every day: if that one person is Guru Maharaj Ji, he can do a lot. More, in fact, than one could imagine possible….

Atlantic City

First, there was the Atlantic City festival. Guru Maharaj Ji explained himself in the satsangs he gave, how he came to be there. On his way back to Malibu to rest after his tour of South America, Africa and Europe, he was handed a premie-made brochure inviting him to a weekend meditation retreat being held in mid-December at the New Jersey seaside resort by the communities in the area. Impressed but tired, he said nothing. Then next thing anybody knew, he was in Atlantic City, and so too were 3,200 premies from all over the eastern United States and Canada.

There was a Saturday night


7

The Golden Age

birthday party with Maharaj Ji, complete with what he called "casual satsang", and a huge cake. There was slow, personal darshan on Sunday, and a powerful evening satsang program. The following day Maharaj Ji met with the coordinators of the east coast communities; he also found time to interview about 15 initiator candidates.

Many people who attended the weekend felt it was "really a turning point" for them. Maharaj Ji himself was very pleased with the program - as Bill Patterson

told the Denver staff, "Atlantic City was really significant, Maharaj Ji really felt that. He was very happy with the whole thing that happened there, the response of premies, the love that was there, the sincerity that was there. Something happened that was more than just a satsang program, there was like a change there, it was something …."

New initiators

Then it was back to California, where Guru Maharaj Ji spent the weeks around Christmas personally supervising the initiator training program. The first group

of five North American premies spent a little over a week at Malibu with Maharaj Ji and initiators Jagdeo and Ira Woods, before being sent out on tour in their respective countries. That gave the U.S. communities four new initiators: Sherry Weinstein and Michael Parragon from Buffalo, Richard Neal from Philadelphia, and John Hampton, who has been travelling with Maharaj Ji. Anne Johnston returned to Canada to tour the eastern cities there.

A week later, a second group of premies, including Australia's Julie Collet, arrived at Malibu for a ten-day stay with Maharaj Ji. Once again, Ira and Jagdeo were there to help out, and so too was Bill Patterson on his return from Denver (see p. 11). And once again, Maharaj Ji confirmed five new initiators at the end of this program. Besides Julie, there was Barbara Kolodney, who has been answering Guru Maharaj Ji's mail - Barbara has been touring the Rocky Mountains region of the U.S. since she became an initiator; Francisco Arce, regional coordinator for the mission in South America - Francisco went to Denver at the end of the program at Malibu; Randy Prouty from the U.S.; and Diego de Alzaga from Argentina. Guru Maharaj Ji instructed Randy and Diego to stay at Malibu for the time being. Krishnasukanand, who also participated in the program, has been in Canada since then.

From all accounts, the programs were an amazing experience for all who took part in them. Maharaj Ji played with the premies, gave satsang, urged them to ask any questions they might have, and to top it off, each group received a Knowledge review from Guru Maharaj Ji personally.

Portland

At the end of the second program, Maharaj Ji took his family, Bill Patterson, Michael Dettmers and the premies who normally do service at Malibu, and set off northwards for a camping holiday. Julie, who watched the little caravan of vehicles wind around the hill from the residence, remarked that she wondered what Maharaj Ji would get up to during the two-week journey. She felt sure, from her experience at Malibu, that he'd be doing something - for the premies who went with him at least. But as it turned out, more premies than just the few that travelled from Malibu benefitted from the trip: late in the evening of Wednesday, 26 January, premies all over North America were phoned and invited to a program with Guru Maharaj Ji, to be held on Sunday 30 January at Portland, Oregon, a town in the north-west of the United States. Surprise!

About 2,400 premies managed to arrive in time. On Saturday evening, there was a beautiful premie satsang program. Sunday afternoon, there was a slow, intimate darshan line. At the Sunday evening program, Guru Maharaj Ji spoke about the current situation of the world, and the necessity for premies to have much determination in their practice of Knowledge now. He told everybody the secret of meditation - just do it! After satsang, arti was sung, and Maharaj Ji went backstage to return with Hans Pal in his arms, followed by Durga Ji holding Premlata.

Again, Guru Maharaj Ji said he was very pleased with the program. On Monday, he met with all the community coordinators still in Portland.

When he returns to Malibu early in February, Maharaj Ji will be holding a third initiator training session.

There are ten premies in this group: Loring Baker, national coordinator from Venezuela; Celso Lousada, Brazilian national coordinator; Mattias Bretscher from Switzerland (Mattias, some Australian premies may remember, visited Australia to work as a ski-instructor in 1975); Nadine Le Bas from France; Claire Tremblay and Stuart McDougal from Canada; Judy Osborne from England, who had been doing service at Malibu - Judy was the midwife at Premlata's birth; Canadian Brian McDermott, who has been coordinating Unity School in Denver (see p. 22); Americans Joan Apter, who has been doing service in Los Angeles while Raja Ji was there, Eliot Brye, who has been working in the kitchen of the IHQ offices, and Los Angeles community coordinator David Smith.

Guru Maharaj Ji has also asked all the initiators currently touring in North America to return to Malibu this week. Maharaj Ji said that he had "put the engine in" and now he wants to "tune it up".

RAJA JI

Raja Ji, Guru Maharaj Ji's brother, and his wife Claudia have recently left Los Angeles for Rome. They plan to spend four months in Italy, and will be attending programs throughout Europe.


image


THE GOLDEN AGE

We had planned to include in this issue a financial breakdown of the costs involved in producing the Golden Age. As most people probably know, the 60˘ charge per issue does not cover our total production costs:the balance has, in the past, been met through AMP.

However all this may soon change. We are hoping that the paper has matured to the point where it can be self-sufficient. This will mean a price increase- probably to $1-00 or $1-20. It will also mean, however, that more AMP money will be available for programs, community activities, etc.

Anyway, we will let you know the financial details next issue-the reason they aren't included here is because we are still investigating the possibility of reducing costs in a couple of areas.

One point that may be worth mentioning is that whatever the price increase now, it is unlikely to rise again in the near future. Increased circulation is a good counterbalance for inflation, and our circulation has, over past weeks, begun to increase once more. We even received an order for 70 copies per month from South Africa recently….


http://prem-rawat-bio.org/dlm_pubs/divinetimes/197803/unityschool.html


Unity: Old and New

by Alan Cunningham


image


image

The sun goes up, the sun

goes down,

The whole world keeps spinning 'round. I love you and you love me.

And that's how simple life can be.


* * *

There is something special about the children. If you hadn't noticed. Watch them play. Watch their faces. Listen to their laughter, observe the now-and-then tears and even the fights as they come. Just watch and listen.

The children. They are already here and now.

Build a world that's clean and fresh and nice and new, the way we all wanted it to be all along. Build it gently and carefully. Not too fast, not too slow. Just carefully, with love. Look around for the elements that need to be treated with the most care.

The children, of course. And the flowers.

Take a child. Nurture her. Let him be. Allow her to flow through the wondrous stages of natural growth. Love him. Shelter her, care for him, let the energy work inside. Let stillness surround her. Let him be a flower, a bird, a tree.

Let her be.

Out here, in the Big World, where we Do Things, we pretend to be doctors, lawyers, merchants, chiefs. And teachers. How do you learn to be a teacher? Thousands of books have been written. Millions of words. College courses and college degrees. Theories. Systems.

Can it be we'll find that the Ultimate System, the Perfect Theory is … just … to let the children grow, inside and outside, without getting in the way?

image

* * *


It has been more than a year now since the Portland festival, when a sister from nearby Eugene, Oregon, passed through the darshan line and handed a small note to Bill Patterson.

Karen Gottlieb, director of the New Day nursery school in Eugene, had written: "Thanks for the beautiful service. Thank you and I love you."

Premies in Eugene hoped Maharaj Ji would visit the school and the retreat in that city not far from Portland. He didn't, but he responded to Karen's note with one of those offhand-yet-significant comments which can completely alter the course of premier' lives.

"They should just start calling themselves Unity School," he said, "and they should get in touch with Denver and communicate."

Word of this brief exchange got back to the faculty at Denver's Unity School more quickly than it reached Karen Gottlieb and the New Day staff. For reasons probably understood only by Maharaj Ji, Bill didn't get the chance to tell Karen about it until five months later, just before a week-long teachers conference in Denver.

Meanwhile, the Denver teachers were struck with the realization that only Maharaj Ji understands what it takes to make a Unity School. By comparison with the relatively simple daycare project in Eugene, Denver's Unity had become a large and well developed program.

Yet the two had something vital in common: Each was staffed by teachers who were strong in their devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji and their practice of his Knowledge.

Karen got the word from Bill just as she and the other teachers in Eugene were putting the final touches on a detailed report they'd been preparing for Maharaj Ji. Hastily, she prepared to leave for Denver.

Now, she had agya to communicate with Unity School. And, in Denver, this same agya caused the planners of the teachers conference to ask themselves a question: What did they have to share with

The answer came back loud and clear: All they had to share was satsang.

16 Divine Times


image

Since then, the school in Eugene has come close to completing its first year under the Unity School banner.

So what is a Unity School?

In Denver, it's a program which began in the fall of 1973 with a first grade and sixth grade in a little cluster of cottages. Now, with grades one through five, it operates in a beautifully remodeled apartment house at 1225 Emerson Street.

Early this year, it also took over a nearby building which had been the Denver community center for the past year and a half.

With the purchase of a new and much larger community hall several miles to the south, various Mission coordinators pondered whether to sell the old center or hang on to it.

As always, Grace settled the matter. The school dipped into a reserve fund, arranged a refinancing plan for the building and - with encouragement from Bill Patterson - moved in.

Michael Blakemore, the principal, is delighted. The building needs work, and the school will have to launch a fundraising drive to get it done before next fall, but when the work is completed, the new facility will more than double the amount of room available to Unity.

Its main hall will be an auditorium. And the teachers plan to take their classes there for afternoon projects. They're also hoping to build a science laboratory, a woodworking area and a pottery shop.

Michael envisions the building as an ideal location for classes in drama, speech, music and movement, as well as gym classes in cold weather. It also seems likely that Unity's sixth and seventh graders will be housed there when Unity expands to fill all the space in its present home.

In Eugene, Karen and her six full time teachers, aided by eight assistants, a cook and others who do various forms of service, are learning the same lesson that keeps coming home to their brothers and sisters in Denver: Grace will take care of the physical needs, but something subtler and much more beautiful is what really sets Maharaj Ji's schools apart from all others.

Currently, they're operating under a $21,000 federal grant, and most of the 36 youngsters from ages 2˝ through 6 are from non-premie families. The school declares in its literature that it "is not, nor was it ever intended to be, a religious school.

image

"We do not intend to teach the children meditation. Meditation is not for children. It is a difficult discipline for adults."

At the same time, the Oregon premies explain to newcoming parents that the staff is made up entirely of people who practice Maharaj Ji's Knowledge. The effects of this, they explain, are positive ones. They make the children feel secure, enjoying the company of their teachers and feeling good about themselves.

As members of a community council which brings together teachers from other daycare programs in Eugene, Karen and the others have discovered that their associates speak of Unity School with great respect.

Inside, they know the praise really goes to the one who is keeping it - and them alive.

"It's just our incredible pleasure to do it," Karen says. "We are 15 people, all together, doing service."

Every day, the children in Eugene enjoy an art project and a story. Once a week, the story blossoms into a play or a puppet show. Sometimes, the fairy tales spark a spontaneous discussion among the youngsters about the meaning of life.

The oldest children, who are at the kindergarten level, are encouraged to concentrate their exploding energy. And sometimes the little folks get simple but perfect lessons in such things as sharing.

And, all the while, the premies there see the fruits of meditation flowing into a continuing experience of love.

Michael Blakemore says he gets hundreds of letters from premies everywhere - most of them parents who want to keep track of what the Denver school is doing. He feels his job is to assure that Unity remains "impeccable, with a fine curriculum - and to make sure the children keep on having that beautiful experience."

In another of those offhand comments to Bill, Maharaj Ji


March, 1978 17

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said last fall that he hopes, in time, to see a country boarding school developed under the Unity School banner. As he always has, Maharaj Ji continues to send his love to the school in the form of gifts, messages and initiators who drop in from time to time.

Referring to Unity as "a very special place," Michael says Maharaj Ji's directions haven't changed over the years. He simply wants a school where anybody can send their children to get a good education.

Denver's Unity remains unique in one respect.

"It is still the prototype, the only elementary school in the world that exists by Guru Maharaj Ji's agya."

But a funny thing is happening. Premie parents in Eugene have expressed interest in seeing the daycare program grow into an elementary school. And, in Denver, Unity is looking at the idea of setting up a daycare center in the onetime community center.

Last year, soon after learning that the New Day school was going to start calling itself by a beautiful new name, Karen Gottlieb wrote these words from Eugene:

"Being Unity School doesn't change anything. It's not like we are to be like Denver or they like us. Just to share our common experiences as individuals realizing Guru Maharaj Ji together."

She went on to say that, as premier and teachers, "We believe, and experience, love is the most effective method, love that is more than sentiments, concepts or emotions. The love that sustains our lives, breath to breath. The love that sustains all of creation.

"We have discovered there is only one way to nurture this experience in each child and that is to realize this consciousness moment-to-moment, ourselves, by practicing this Knowledge an taking advantage of his Grac and darshan."

In putting together her report for Maharaj Ji, Karen asked parents how they felt about New Day. The parents talked most about the love, the "warm vibration," and the "attitude of peace, calm and responsibility" which they say in the teachers.

To Karen, such comments were only a reflection of the Grace and Love put forth by the one person who really understands what it takes to make a Unity School.

In the end, the kids often have the last word. That also seems to be true at Unity School in Eugene, where the often sing the little song that appears at the top of this article:

The sun goes up, the sun goes down, The whole world keeps spinning 'round. I love you and you love me.

And that's how simple life can be."


* * *

Build a world that's fresh and clean and new. Build it gently and carefully, with love

Especially for the children. Maharaj Ji's children.


18 Divine Times


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"Mahatma" is a term that has been heard and used by all of us since probably the first day we considered asking for Knowledge. The term "'mahatma'" refers to the service of being a channel through which Guru Maharaj Ji reveals the experience of KnowledgeIt also refers to the particular premies that Maharaj Ji has assigned to perform this service.

Maharaj Ji has described the service of mahatma by saying "a mahatma is like a microphone." Not the originator of a message, but able to carry that message to listening ears. Without the originator of the message, without the connection with that source, a microphone is useless.

To do the service of mahatma, as with any other service to Guru Maharaj Ji, it is necessary to maintain a strong internal connection with Maharaj Ji, to be open to Maharaj Ji's grace. A premie - whether serving as a janitor, a secretary, a director of Divine Light Mission, or a mahatma - is constantly faced with a

decision: to be in that place of meditation and connection with Guru Maharaj Ji or to be in the illusion of the mind. If we choose to be with Maharaj Ji, then his grace will always guide us safely through whatever trials we face in our lives. If we have difficulty maintaining that connection in one service, often Guru Maharaj Ji will offer us another service, another opportunity to realize something in this Knowledge.

In July, the former Mahatmas Parlokanand, Adharanand and Gitanand met in a private conference with Guru Maharaj Ji. In that meeting, Maharaj Ji removed them from the service of mahatma. Because of the nature of their visas, each of them has since had to return to India.

Last month, another set of circumstances led to the removal of Vijay Kumar Sumar (formerly Mahatma Vijayanand) from the service of mahatma.

Vijay was actually removed from his service by Guru Maharaj Ji some time ago, because he had expressed that he was not experiencing Knowledge. Guru Maharaj Ji assigned him a service at the Rainbow Grocery in Denver in order to give him an opportunity to overcome the obvious difficulty he was having with mahatmaship. Guru Maharaj Ji put him in an environment that could help him concentrate and discipline himself, in a simple responsibility that would allow him to humbly serve and begin to have a real experience with Knowledge again. Vijay, however, did not see this as an opportunity but rather a humiliation.

Last month, Vijay abruptly came to the microphone at a Denver community meeting and announced that he was leaving Divine Light Mission. He said that he had been struggling with his confusion for several months: that he could see the Knowledge as a glorious thing, but he did not understand who Guru Maharaj Ji is or what part Maharaj Ji played in his life. He said that he had come to America to be a "holy man … to be a mahatma, not to work in a grocery." And then he walked out of the meeting. The next day, Vijay slanderously denounced his relationship to Guru Maharaj Ji and the Mission in newspapers and on television. It was subsequently discovered that he had married an American a few weeks before, and he is now attempting to become his own, self-styled guru.

While serving under the agya of Guru Maharaj Ji, Vijay became a popular figure in many communities and may continue to contact premies, hoping to attract them to his new lifestyle.

Our path is long, straight and narrow ahead of us, and, as we have seen so obviously over the last year, anyone can fall from this path. It is only the sincerity and effort of each of us that can insure that we remain steadfast in Knowledge and in faith in Guru Maharaj Ji Without this sincerity, we can easily fall prey to the confusion of the mind that Guru Maharaj Ji has warned us about so many times. Our faith, our dedication, the Knowledge and Guru Maharaj Ji. These are the only weapons we have along this path - no matter who we are or what service we perform.


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Mahatmas

Page 4


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If

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words are Birds

and thoughts are clouds

then an experience defineable is certainly confineable So don't walk in the footsteps of a past master

Simply seek and see what they were after.

(This question was asked at the recent fundraising conference): Guru Maharaj Ji, a lot of things seem to be changing in the Mission. Like we change the name from mahatma to initiator, things like that

Guru Maharaj Ji: Some of the approaches we were taking were definitely wrong. they, in fact, were not helping people but were confusing people. Say I am going out on the street and distributing leaflets. Somebody comes up to me and asks me what I am doing, and I give him satsang. He says, "Okay, where can I receive Knowledge?" and I tell him, "Well you go to a mahatma." He says, "What's a mahatma?" By the time you finish explaining everything to him, he doesn't know what he understood at first that made him even ask all the questions. I think that's just crazy. So initiator is a straight word and it tells you what the person does. He initiates.

You see, these changes will slowly, slowly start occurring. I don't know to what extent they are going to occur. I can't tell you. I can't predict that. But we are trying to get rid of the things that were sitting locked up in Divine Light Mission's closet just catching rust, doing nothing to nobody, and putting a heavy burden on us. We are just trying to get rid of all that stuff, so that we can really present ourselves properly.

As you know, people really don't have the right consciousness about Divine Light Mission. They think it's a cult or a religion. But what do we really teach you? Still, those things confuse people, because there are some similarities to be found. Anything that's becoming a burden in the path of Knowledge, I'm just going to eliminate that.


24 December 1975

To All "mahatmas,"

Since our meetings held in Orlando, Florida during the Hans Jayanti festival, I have spent a great deal of time reviewing the progress of our international program to spread Knowledge, while here in Denver. 1975 was a very successful year of growth for the Divine Light Mission and as the times have changed, we have been changing our methods of propagation in order to more properly relate to people. In the past many things which were done were not effective. Much of the way in which we presented Knowledge did not give people the proper association to recognize what the practice of Knowledge entails. We have seen that many of those people who received initiation often had misconceptions. They thought that Knowledge was a trippy thing or a mystical thing, but when it came right down to integrating Knowledge into their life in the daily practice of satsang, service and meditation, they didn't have the proper understanding.

I strongly feel that we should not be presenting Knowledge to people as a trippy thing and that we should not continue presenting Knowledge in a way that sincere people are excluded from being able to receive Knowledge because they can't relate to the manner in which we are propagating. It is for this reason that I have decided that it is best to immediately discontinue some of the practices which have fostered wrong ideas.

When you give satsang it is most appropriate to stand or sit in front of the microphone in the same manner as all other speakers. There is no necessity of covering chairs with cloth and placing flowers around them and sitting on the stage prior to and after you are giving satsang. I have also given permission to some of the mahatmas in the West wearing Indian-style saffron clothing to dress in Western clothes and to allow their hair to grow to a normal length. I am also changing the name "mahatma," which is impossible to translate into other languages accurately because the Hindi word literally means "great soul." When this has been translated it has confused many people and it also has caused devotees who performed this service to be described in a manner which promotes wrong ideas. I have decided to call all "mahatmas," initiators. This word more accurately describes the unique service which is performed by these devotees under my agya, and can be easily translated into all languages. It is my intention that this change of name go into effect immediately and from now on all of you will be known as "initiators." It will take some time to change all of the written material. As of the date of this letter this will go into planning and all materials referring to mahatmas will be substituted with new materials as soon as practical.

My blessings to you,


Signed by Sant Ji Maharaj


Guru Maharaj Ji







Modified by Susan at Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 23:53:43

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13 ®

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Class action! Yay. He can pay for my glasses, and come round to my house and sort out a row of electrical sockets that I installed by eye - when I stood back and looked at my handiwork, that's when I realised I had astigmatism!






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1972 ®

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As I was exing about 20 years ago, a premie friend tried to tell me how incredible it was to get a knowledge review with prem....I think he was hoping it might entice me back into the fold, as he knew I placed value on meditation....he explained how prem kept his fingers perfectly placed on his eyes for the 15 minute period without them ever moving....he was extolling Prem's incredible discipline...until someone told him that the 15 minute video of prem doing the light technique was actually a frozen screen shot....oh well...






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12/26/2023, 23:00:22
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I was made an instructor by prem and he did the knowledge review for all of us. 

No extra light or special ways to do it. His pressure was firm but not as much pressure as padarthanand did in the knowledge session. But by this time I am sure everyone knew that pressure was bad on the eyes so he adjusted accordingly.

I can guarantee you that there was absolutely NOTHING special about prem doing the techniques. And in fact, I felt a sense of let down about this.

But of course it must have been my fault. Maybe I wasn't brainwashed enough at the time.







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By the way, I only ever performed one knowledge session myself before prem fired all of us part time instructors.

Some people said they had an experience but one girl was really disappointed and said she felt nothing. That made me worry that I had done something wrong. I still couldn't figure out how I could suddenly be able to 'give knowledge' when I couldn't do it before attending the instructor conference. I mean, we were never really told how the whole process was supposed to work now that we were 'authorised' to reveal the techniques. 

Let's face it, looking back, I was kind of disappointed after the instructor conference that I didn't feel any different. Remind anyone of how they felt after their knowledge session? To me the whole thing was definitely a case of the emperor's new clothes fake out.






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An innocent moth into a toxic flame
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12/27/2023, 10:05:00
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"I only ever performed one knowledge session myself"

My heart sank when I read that.

I never wanted to apply to be an instructor, but I had great respect for most - but not all! - of them. I've often described darshan - stooping to kiss the foot of another human being out of total submission and all the mental conditioning it takes to get there - as a severe assault on the core of my mental and emotional faculties. I doubt that many people (in western cultures) would disagree.

Speaking for myself, if I had been in the position of performing a knowledge session, I think it would've been just as damaging. Why? Because my understanding was that instructors were supposed to be empty vessels and clear conduits through which Maharaji's grace or spark could flow. In other words, there was no place for you in that room.

That would've made me even more steeped in it and closer to the toxic flame of that cult - you can't get much closer. It must've had quite an impact on you and I sincerely hope it had no lasting effects.

Protoss mentioned courage. Courage in that cult was defined as the moth that flew straight into the flame and allowed itself to be consumed as opposed to those that veered off at the last second. Remember that satsang staple? 

Mental self-immolation popped into my brain, which is why my heart sank.











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That is a perfidy description of my efforts in the ashram!  How could it not leave scars! 






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I force myself to listen to the free blurbs he posts lately. Just to see what the latest presentation is.

He is using the word courage. They just released one on it from LA. 

I didn’t understand courage in the context he was using it but it makes perfect sense as you explain it. 

“Protoss mentioned courage. Courage in that cult was defined as the moth that flew straight into the flame and allowed itself to be consumed as opposed to those that veered off at the last second. Remember that satsang staple?  

One person I have been talking to explains that the inner circle uses this to explain the pain a sincere premie feels when seeing the Boss’s horrible behavior.

“The closer you get to the flame the more it burns”

I didn’t get it I think I left before he started with this one. 

Courage becomes twisted into the new lingo for surrender?  




 






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12/27/2023, 19:10:59
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lakeshore - that's why the whole cult thing had such a big impact on the rest of my life. I sincerely and wholeheartedly gave my all to prem, believing his claims that he was greater than God. To find out in the end that none of it was real, well, that caused serious trust issues on the one hand, but also left me susceptible to other cult type organisations on the other. I was one of those sincere seekers of truth and I just kept trying to find 'it' (truth). 

I have found my own truth, but it isn't in any other person or group. Today I am a much more sceptical person than I think I would have been had I not stumbled across the fake and fraud that is prem.

I do regret having had that one knowledge session because it means I was part of the fraud. The one girl who said she didn't experience anything was the only honest one there. She couldn't relate to prem as the source of it all, so I knew she 'wasn't ready' (hadn't been brainwashed enough) but I was leaving that city and wasn't going to be returning, so figured she was 'ready enough'. But she knew. I was just so deep in at that point, I couldn't see the forest for the trees.

I hope she ran away, and that all the others in the session finally saw that the emperor had no clothes on. 






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12/28/2023, 06:32:49
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That's why my heart sank the instant I read that. I knew. And so did Karen and many others here, but no one else can speak for how it affected you. 

It's a dilemma. On the one hand, I want to be so over it that it isn't even a blip in my rearview mirror. On the other hand, it's perhaps the most important and impactful lesson I've ever hopefully learned. It shatters trust so much that you're left with no choice other than to find your own truth.

I'm sure yours is solid, beautiful and precious.

I also hope that girl and the others ran away. It caused me to reflect on the many hundreds I met along the way who surely no longer come running when he calls. Then my heart sank again wondering about how they cope with their scars.

The only thing limitless about Knowledge is the damage done.






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12/28/2023, 23:27:34
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Lakeshore

I regret every instance when I introduced someone to prem and his fake knowledge. My mum and my sister-in-law and different friends over the years. I thought I was giving them a gift. Fortunately most of them experienced nothing, had no feelings for prem and never got trapped by the brainwashing. I think all of them received K only for me, so they didn't have the guru worship connection that was so toxic.

The half dozen or so that I actually initiated into the fake knowledge, I have no idea what happened to them over the years, but I can earnestly hope that they all either walked or ran away. 

My life was basically derailed by prem and his lies and I never got it back on track again in the way that I would have wanted to. I did manage to accomplish a lot of things after exiting, but I know that my inner life was deeply affected by his lies and betrayal. 

I have reached a place of peace now, but there aren't a whole lot of years left to me, so I try to enjoy every moment that I do have. Regret is not something I want to dwell on even though I do acknowledge that things would have been a lot better if I had never come across the sleazy boy guru when I did. I was just too innocent and too sincere and too trusting. As we all were, I imagine.

If there is any kind of justice at all in the universe, then prem would pay for what he did to so many people. But I fear there may be nothing of the sort. But no matter his state in life, I would never envy him his life - he has no character at all, so his whole life is a waste of space and time. That will just have to be his punishment, if there is nothing else.






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12/29/2023, 16:25:36
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Same for me.  

I find I am wanting more and more to spend time home alone.  I like my own company.  I have a lot to do.

Rawat has him.  He has to live with himself.  As one woman recently said to me - oh anything's better than staying home alone, and she shuddered - this did not surprise me.  So no, I don't think we need to wait for karma to kick in, it happens every night.  

I always remember the previous generation were big on saying to us do everything because you don't want to end up regretting what you didn't do.  And I can appreciate the advice but I think there is a season of regret no matter what you do and I've taken the approach of relax into it, let it tell you what it wants, it's ok.

I have some painful regrets.  I mean it's inevitable - brain crushed by cult as teenager, soul crushed by gay in denial man I spent my whole life with - the lies pinned me in the dust like a forked stick.  It was a tough slog out of my 40's but so worth it.  It's been like going from black and white tv to colour.

Is this what the previous generation meant when they talked about character-building? 








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12/29/2023, 19:13:40
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Lesley, the funny thing is that our disappointments often come from other people and not from what we do ourselves. Maybe that's why is feels so good to be alone now. There are no expectations on me, no betrayals or hurt feelings, no dramas and traumas. Those things were for youth. Now that I am a mellow old lady, I think animals are enough for me.

As for doing things just for the sake of doing them, that time has passed too. I have pretty much done everything I want to do and now it is all about cherishing each day. But not with that breath meditation that only made me focus on my asthma, and not by destroying my eyeballs or causing aching arms or swallowing my tongue (which gives most people a very ugly 'nectar neck'). 

Poor old prem is still peddling his wares as an aging man, with no peace in sight for him. I don't feel sorry for him, just making an observation.

Your life sounds great - enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.







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12/30/2023, 08:46:09
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I can relate so much to everything you said. It seems like a remarkably parallel path to mine:

"My life was basically derailed by prem and his lies and I never got it back on track again in the way that I would have wanted to. I did manage to accomplish a lot of things after exiting, but I know that my inner life was deeply affected by his lies and betrayal. I have reached a place of peace now..."

It's painful and heartwarming at the same time. I live with the wounds caused by that derailment every day, but I wouldn't trade the solidity? of the peace I somehow managed to construct by distilling it all. It was a horrible round-about way to get there. Almost like using Prem Rawat, Knowledge and that sorry-ass cult as a benchmark for everything peace is not!

In 1979 when I was a community coordinator in a city about forty minutes from where we live, I remember plotting introductory outreach programs in the area we now live. Now I play golf and socialize with dozens of the very people we were targeting. They inspire me as salt-of-the-earth people who lived genuine, unfettered, dignified and hard-working lives. They have no idea how much respecct I have for them. They also have no idea how hard it is for me to pretend that I lived the same way (or hide that I didn't). It has a way of amplifying those wounds when I'm around them.

What a naive, blinkered fool I was to fervently believe they needed to be saved!

You also reminded me of the many times I said to Flying Solo that "I'd be happy all the time if it weren't for other people!" 

Thank you for such thoughtful, moving and reflective posts.






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12/30/2023, 15:04:13
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One of the things my ex used to do was to move things like my car keys from where I'd put them.  

By the time I moved here I was looking forward to knowing I could pick up my tools where I left them.  I did not anticipate the relaxation of stress and anxiety that occurred, it was immediate - I had the best night's sleep I'd had in decades.  omg.  I followed up the good sleep with lying in the middle of the living room carpet and crying my eyes out, it felt like luxury to have the space to do that.  It did not change how scared I was to be living alone, that took a little time but I already knew it was going to be better than the lonely I'd been.

That's ten years ago now.  I spent some time limping around complaining to myself about how I couldn't cope with all the work involved in looking after myself, the plants and the animals let alone get on with a project, but now I am just impressed at how well I have adjusted and now omg omg, I have a set of pots to make for my garden - it's my homage to the earth.  It's been a long trail to get here, a dream come true to model with clay that I've picked up in fistfuls straight out of the garden, not sieved, I pick out any stones as I go, not using tools, just my hands and oh this is the best bit - no finishing, just sketch like you mean it and go.  It's so fast, it actually makes it a real possibility to complete it all.  But I have to admit it takes a lot, I get tired quite quickly.  But you know, a couple of days on the sofa works well and the puss has just learnt how to eat a mouse which is excellent.  So yes, quite right.  I am having a whole lot more fun just by not being with guru or ex.

Stopping being a premie did wonders for my peace of mind.  No more meditating, no more sitting cross-legged (oh how I regret all the time I did that) being just the start of it.

I saw a man on the telly who lived in Queensland somewhere, lots of red dust and some kangaroos.  He was friends with the vet in town but that was it, his family was the kangaroos, he went to the aid of injured kangaroos on the roadside, a lot of the ones he lived with were joeys he'd rescued out of the pouch of their dead mother.  






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lakeshore ®

12/31/2023, 08:51:08
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Just saw some of "your" fireworks straight out of my future on TV.

Reading the forum, I only get bits and pieces of of other posters' journeys. I wasn't aware that your divorce from such a deceiptful situation that made you suddenly single and self-sufficient was only ten years ago. That scene on your living room flooor is so relatable. It doesn't get much more human. Almost tragically, I remember trying to meditate my way out some of the most difficult challenges I ever faced (or, more accurately, tried to run from).

"Stopping being a premie did wonders for my peace of mind."

Apparenty, the sword of his knowledge and the shield of his grace didn't work-out so well for you. 

Happy New Year to you and everyone here!






Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Dec 31, 2023, 08:52:44

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Re: Only ten years ago?
Re: Only ten years ago? -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/31/2023, 17:21:33
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thanks Lakeshore - yes, I exited the cult in 2000 and it took another 13 years before I moved here.

I remember the feeling of getting ground under my feet when I exited the cult.  Oh yes, it felt good.  I could sense there was still a bog 'over there' but it was such a relief to be on solid ground, I took my time getting over there.  First I needed to regroup.  I mean that's how dire it was - I had been going up the creek without a paddle for 27 years.  Now, thanks to the expremies I had a paddle and I made good use of it.  

Looking back, exiting the cult is the year where I got my life back, it did take another 13 years to complete the deal but it was a hell of a struggle.

I was 19 when I met my ex.  At 57 years old, floored with the same level of shock as when I realised Maharaji was fake, it felt like I had woken up in the burns ward of life.   

For the next couple of years it was solid improvement, and oh fantastic feeling on a subterranean level while at ground level I was being taken to the point of exhaustion getting the separation underway.  No wonder I had such a good sleep!

It was more than that though - the low level anxiety I had felt in the pit of my stomach all through my married life was gone.  It was shocking.  Just like there was a good aftershock from everything you learn on exiting the cult, it was the same thing again. 

It's not the 90% of lies that flow to the right and left of you, it's the 10% of lies you ingest that do you in. 

Stopping that fake marriage has done wonders for my peace of mind and brought comfort to my soul.

Somehow I will need to muster the confidence to make my pots, meanwhile I have made blueberry and banana ice cream with 6 egg yolks in it and going to neighbourhood NYE drinks where I discover the latest in conspiracy theory - Putin is a very nice man, loved by 85% of Russians and he is rescuing all the Russians (80% of population) who live under the fascist tyranny of the Ukrainian govt.  Meanwhile the Israelis have been committing genocide, killing Palestinian children for hundreds of years, hang on hasn't Israel only existed since WW2?, oh, not the point.

So I told my Christmas Eve story of the hens singing like carollers on the back door step, only this time I added little Christmas hats.









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Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it...
Re: Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it... -- 1972 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
1972 ®

12/27/2023, 07:03:49
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The knowledge review my friend was talking about was in an auditorium with hundreds of people. The k-review was actually an hour long video with prem doing each technique for 15 minutes each. Each segment was a frozen "screen shot" of prem doing the technique. My friend, who couldn't sit still, kept opening his eyes and looking up at the giant video screen and was amazed that prem kept doing the techniques in perfect stillness. He never realized it was just a frozen picture on the screen...of course, he went on and on about how amazing prem was...and he could only hope one day to have discipline like prem had..






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Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it...
Re: Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it... -- 1972 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/27/2023, 09:23:20
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There were about a thousand premies at the big Knowledge Review I attended. Always a bit slow on the uptake, I was just like your friend before I finally caught on.

Prem kept saying to start from the outside of your eyeballs, gently move your fingers to the center and raise them slightly upward into a notch in the bone structure of your eyeball socket. I kept trying it over and over to get it just right... questioning whether or not I even had a notch.

Like I said... a bit slow on the uptake!

Could easily go on about the funny and peculiar minutia of the other techniques. So hu... what!






Modified by lakeshore at Wed, Dec 27, 2023, 09:25:00

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Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it...
Re: Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it... -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/27/2023, 13:47:45
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omg, it was impossible to think so hung while focusing on the breath - it was an instant distraction.






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Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it... (-:
Re: Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it... -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/27/2023, 20:57:07
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Oh please, he actually said that " gently move your fingers to the center and raise them slightly upward into a notch in the bone structure of your eyeball socket. "

F*ck me. I had no chance. I didn't allow Paddy to squeeze my eyes. I thought you used a finger and your thumb and my eyeball socket is notchless.

If only one person in the thousand had laughed






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and accidental discovery
Re: Re: My mistake...prem knows how to do it... (-: -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/28/2023, 04:18:34
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Once again, I tripped over my tongue or memory or something. He definitely said soft pads of your thumb and finger. The audience was riveted! Ooh! Ahh! He's so... he's so... precise and caring! He's such a perfect master!

Thank you for correcting me. Out of curiosity, I tried it with two fingers. An interesting thing happened with my middle finger when I tried it with my second and fourth finger (soft pads, of course). No wonder he told us to use our thumb.






Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 04:50:11

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PERFECT!!!!! LOL ...
Re: It's all my fault! -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
KarenK ®

12/26/2023, 11:25:28
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I have a feeling our Protoss has moved on. I wish him the best!






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Re: It's all my fault!
Re: It's all my fault! -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
KarenK ®

12/26/2023, 14:39:38
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LOL! Maybe all us ex-premise are to blame for the wars in the Middle East and Ukraine! Maybe our evil free thinking ways are the real reason Prem hasn't established Peace on Earth with his royal ass LOTU!







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Re: Are you Prem Rawat?
Re: Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/25/2023, 21:20:02
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Oh Protoss you are talking as if you are Prem, himself. He agrees that it was always a cult, that there is no such thing as a Perfect Master but that for him, a person of great sincerity and courage, the only one, he experienced a peace and he's still talking about it 50 years after.

You don't actually have the power to upset anyone but I will pretend I wounded deep in my soul so I can read more of your phony solicitude. Do the Germans have a word for enjoying the phony caring of a person who cannot even reach the level of hypocrisy?

Unfortunately not. I'll try to start one: das Protosser






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He can’t be
Re: Re: Are you Prem Rawat? -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/25/2023, 23:49:25
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“I realize that my  use of the word feel was wrong “. “Also I want to apologize if i have made anyone upset “


He said he was wrong and apologizes.












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Re: Waiting in hope (NT)
Re: He can’t be -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/26/2023, 04:01:03
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Brilliant!
Re: He can’t be -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/26/2023, 04:53:20
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Prem's character all wrapped-up in a colorful ribbon and bow. You must've found that one under the tree.

Thank you for making me laugh first thing in the morning!






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Re: Are you Prem Rawat?
Re: Re: Are you Prem Rawat? -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/26/2023, 17:52:22
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Prembio, you might be right that Protoss is only here to wind us up but maybe he is just a practising premie wondering where the hell he is - we can all remember how one's ability to think and process is short-circuited by premie think.  Just like it took a while, short but noticeable, to get absorbed into premie think in the first place, it takes a while to get free of it on the way back out.







Modified by lesley at Tue, Dec 26, 2023, 17:57:15

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Are you people 100 percent certain Prem is fake?
Re: the posts here -- protoss Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Steve ®

12/27/2023, 08:51:56
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How about his mom, did she think he was fake? And what about his 3 brothers, do they think he is fake? Mmmmm.






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Yes
Re: Are you people 100 percent certain Prem is fake? -- Steve Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/27/2023, 10:37:53
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I'm about as certain of Rawat being a fake (take your pick - satguru, perfect master, messiah, peace ambassador, decent human being - he's none of those things) as I am about the moon not being made of cheese.

Course, I haven't been to the moon.






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Re: Yes
Re: Yes -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/27/2023, 11:22:39
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oh, and there was I thinking that when the cow jumped over the moon it turned to cheese.






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Re: Are you people 100 percent certain Prem is fake?
Re: Are you people 100 percent certain Prem is fake? -- Steve Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Aquinas ®

12/27/2023, 19:14:30
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Yes, yes, and yes.

I am 100% sure prem is fake.
His mom is 100% sure prem is fake.
His brothers are 100% sure he is fake, including Raja Ji, who hung around him.

Fake, fake, fake.






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Re: Prem was 100% percent certain his mother and elder brothers were fake! (NT)
Re: Are you people 100 percent certain Prem is fake? -- Steve Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/27/2023, 20:59:27
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And
Re: Re: Prem was 100% percent certain his mother and elder brothers were fake! (NT) -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/28/2023, 01:16:07
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Rawat must think every other guru is fake. He'd quote Jesus or Kabir when it suited him, but you never hear him recommend listening to a contemporary guru do you? A peace ambassador that has never mentioned Mandela. Someone who pretends to care, never mentioned Ms Thunberg.

He must regard himself as the source of all wisdom, and anyone else not worth listening to or fake.

Quite narcissistic isn't it?






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Re: And
Re: And -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/28/2023, 04:58:59
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Yes, only quotes dead sages - I guess he views the living gurus as competition in the same field and I bet he thinks he's smarter than any of them, I expect they all think that.

Oh goodness there's this great big yellowy moon appeared from behind the clouds.  very serene after all the scary thunder and lightning storms we've been having.  The poor chickens in their little coop, I briefly contemplated bringing them indoors.  But no damage at all in this little area.  Now the moon is swathed in clouds again, even more serene. 








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Re: And (off topic)
Re: Re: And -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

12/28/2023, 08:32:48
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It was just big and bright by the time it made it's way over here. Speaking of scary storms (not to mention no snow!), we had the the biggest storm I've ever been in a week ago. Unrelenting torrential rain and sixty MPH winds for a full ten hours. Downed trees and flooding all over. No power, water, TV or internet for nearly five days. Lived off a generator and spider web of extention cords.

But as soon as the storm passed, there they were. Our neighbors chickens back in our yard. I never knew how friendly and sociable chickens are. They walk right up to me. Great conversations!

Glad yours are okay. Best to you and Mr. Darko W. 







Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 08:39:50

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Re: And (off topic)
Re: Re: And (off topic) -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/28/2023, 16:31:04
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Thanks Lakeshore, best to you too.

On Christmas Eve I fell asleep on the sofa and woke up to what at first I thought was Darko wanting food - it was just on the end of the day, hardly any light left and omg I remembered the chickens, I had closed the gate on their enclosure so the scrub turkey could not get in while they were out in the back garden.  I go for the door thinking they will be sitting by the gate as the closest spot to their nest but there they were standing in a row right on the back step - like a bunch of carollers, they were singing to me, not squawking or anything, friendly little wake up please cheeping sounds. 

Yes, record breaking storms all round the world isn't it.  Very scary.  Good for you being able to cope for so long without power.  I been thinking how I would cope and I could go days quite easily despite not having a generator but this is because I don't have to warm the house - even in the middle of Winter it is not cold enough to need a fire.  It would be upsetting though, I would lose all the food I have cooked that is in the freezer.  Thank goodness for the chickens!

Do your neighbours give you eggs?

Back on topic, chickens that is, they sure can be hornery if they want to and there's one of me and there were four of them, they could run rings round me so I had to open up and talk to them by cheeping even tho I knew my neighbours might hear.  So they make all these nice sounds and then the other day my neighbour said to me that he'd changed his mind about what is the best birdsong - he gives happy chickens first place now.  Isn't that lovely, I was so pleased to hear it.  And doesn't it give validity to all those people who campaigned for better conditions for battery hens and for all the other animals who are farmed.

Isn't it shocking to think of how much suffering farmed chickens have been through.  The farm my chickens came from was a magical place, it looked out over a big valley with some farmland and lots of trees, big skies, open to the east, he had acres of pasture around him in which he put one shed with a concrete floor, and then cut the beaks of the chickens he crowded into it.  It stunk.  

On the face of it, you can think well if he doesn't care about how the chickens feel then from his perspective there's less effort involved in their care and more safety from predators by keeping them in the shed and having a concrete floor.

But it doesn't really wash, it's still not practical.  Providing the chickens with their basic needs, letting forage would be less effort than cutting their beaks and removing the poop from the concrete floor.

It seems all wrong to me not to care about his chickens feel.  How can he look after them if he doesn't connect with how they feel?







Modified by lesley at Thu, Dec 28, 2023, 16:37:04

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Re: Jesus and Kabir were Incarnations of God too
Re: And -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

12/28/2023, 18:12:52
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There is a list of bona fide other incarnations of God before Prem Rawat. I didn't make it up:

https://prem-rawat-bio.org/lineage.html






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Facebook reel of Indian follower regarding lineage Jesus
Re: Re: Jesus and Kabir were Incarnations of God too -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/28/2023, 18:46:55
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▶️ Watch this reel https://www.facebook.com/reel/1723480768129365?fs=e&;mibextid=NpOjYg&fs=e&s=TIeQ9V






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