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I'm writing in an attempt to emphasize the broader implications of statements made on Facebook and this forum pointing towards Prem Rawat's molestation of one of his sons.
I'll begin by saying that I was reluctant to start a new thread because I do not want to distract from AJW's (Anth Ginn's) post below entitled "This Can't Be True," Dojo's (Don Johnson's) post below entitled "Film Documentary Interest in the Prem Rawat Cult," and all the other excellent posts. I strongly encourage anyone who hasn't done so to please read those posts before continuing. I was also reluctant because the topic is so important that I wish it didn't have to come out disconnected and bit by bit. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I've encouraged anyone interested to read the 24 comments attached to the very first post on Shana Noel Rawat's Facebook page. (There are many other relevant comments on other Facebook pages.) Following are a few excerpts:
Shana: "The daughters were present when Prem Rawat confessed to ongoing molestation years ago on a recorded call. One daughter later asked the victim her brother if $100,000 would be enough..."
Comment: "For God's sake people, Maharaji abused his own son! ... how can the rest of the family just turn a blind eye, and even more continue to dedicate themselves to him?"
Shana: "The Prem Rawat foundation/ timeless today and members of his family would rather protect their pedophile cult leader than protect the public. My husband is not the only victim. He is the only victim willing to speak out."
Shana: "Its a fact that family members and many others know that Both Marolyn and Prem are pedophiles with child sexual abuse victims." ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The implications of what's come out so far are daunting.
Backed by AJW's disturbing first-hand account below, I have no doubt whatsoever that Shana's statements are true. I would now like to draw attention to 1) the near (near because I didn't witness it personally) certainty that family members who sit at the top of Prem Rawat's organizations, including The Prem Rawat Foundation, are fully aware of this information; and 2) the "many others," presumably close to Prem Rawat and at the operational core of this global enterprise, who are also fully aware of this information.
Based on Shana's publicly available statements, both daughters were present when Prem Rawat confessed to ongoing molestation years ago on a recorded call. (Not to be misinterpreted as ongoing to this day.) Therefore, it seems clear to me that both daughters continue to promote their father knowing full well what he did to one of their brothers.
Moreover, the one daughter Shana referred to must've had a reason for asking her brother if $100,000 would be enough. Given the context of the comments, I'm comfortable assuming the reason may have had something to do with preventing damaging information from reaching the public.
Henceforth, in my opinion, every action, speaking engagement, initiative, publication, fundraising appeal, press release, etc., in furtherance of promoting Prem Rawat ought to be judged harshly through the lens of watching individuals who are fully aware of this information continue to promote Prem Rawat anyway.
Every time I see Prem Rawat speaking to an audience, I will be mindful of something beyond shameful that he knows he did. And he will be left wondering who in the audience might be mindful of it as well.
I suspect that the operational core of the cult must be roiling over the breach of its efforts to contain this information. Fortunately, for the sake of truth, it's too late.
As the victim said, "the public deserves to know."
If there is any honesty, decency and integrity to be found at the core of this cult, the time to demonstrate it is fast approaching.
Modified by lakeshore at Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 19:24:15
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Maybe it's time FOR US to "be strategic and intelligent" (quote of one of the daughters) as how to deal with this info.
And if WE, the exes, decide to do so, it would have to be in a workshop-like circle of people in a non-public setting. Definitely not on this public forum. The reasons should be evident.
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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Strangely, it's the message of this film. Don't be intimidated into silence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQdfRNclaa4
(please highlight and rightclick for link... the opening to the interview is worth the watch)
Then I saw the credits
"SANDS OF SILENCE: Waves of Courage A film by Chelo Álvarez-Stehle Join our movement to end sexual exploitation: www.sandsofsilence.org Dedicated to my daughter ******* may she find the light even in her darkest moments With deep gratitude to each of the women who've broken the silence in this film and beyond and to Prem Rawat"
https://www.sandsofsilence.org/join-our-movement-to-end-sexual-exploitation/
(I edited out the name of her daughter)
Also, a name from the Jagdeo situation is also in the credits,
"DEEPAK RAJ BHANDARI •"
( I tried reaching out to her privately I never got any answer... very much like Sara Sidner)
Modified by Susan at Wed, Jan 31, 2024, 22:22:29
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I'm a Dad. I know that's not unusual, and not a huge achievement in itself, but I look back on the time when the kids were young as the very best time in my life. Maybe rose-tinted rear view glasses. But my wife and I agree that this was the case - there was never a single instance of whining, tantrums or screaming. So I guess we had it easy.
We had a lot of fun. We spent months on a round the world trip, much of it crossing America slowly in a motor-home. We spent months in Mexico, snorkelling the cenotes or looking for spider monkeys in the forests. We did all kinds of trips. But some of my fondest memories were the winter days, wrestling and fighting to throw each other off the sofa (they always won somehow, eventually!) or marathon sessions building Lego cities and machines on the floor in front of the fire.
There was so much joy to be had, just playing with them, surprising them, showing them stuff, seeing them learn things and master new skills, see them grow in confidence and their understanding, see them work things out.
Those kids were precious to me. They trusted me. It was great. Now they're all grown up and mostly gone, but we're still close.
But if I'd stepped over a line, that trust would have been broken, the easy joy in each other's company lost. Instead of me watching them grow up, they'd have had to watch me, in case I was going to cross that line again. Their childhood would have been so different, for them and for me. I'd have missed out on the real intimacy, and I'd be looking back with shame and sorrow. I'd hate to think what it would have done to them.
So it's really tragic, a parent molesting a child. So much is broken and lost. By the parent and the child. Such a precious time squandered, innocence abused, trust lost, beauty unappreciated and tarnished.
So it's amazing and appalling to me, that someone who has crossed that line, who hasn't appreciated and respected the innocence and preciousness of childhood can get up on a stage and claim to know something we don't. Claim to have a better way of being. Someone walking across the flower bed to give us a lecture on gardening. It's grotesque.
These revelations of child molestation really do put the whole cult thing in a new light for me. I'm really sorry for Hans, who I've never met and don't know at all. Others too. Sorry.
But Prem Rawat - not only is there no 'Knowledge', and he has no wisdom greater than ours, but he doesn't even know how to be a decent and reasonable human being, respecting and appreciating others. Such a fraud and hypocrite.
Maybe we ought to go to his next event, just to boo him off the stage. That would be a start.
Sad, sorry and angry to hear this stuff. Still bloody naive, after all.
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Hi 13,
Your post is as big and full and real as the world you and your family travelled.
"So it's really tragic, a parent molesting a child. So much is broken and lost."
In a rare moment, I wrote about it once:
"Ask me right now, and I'll tell you these are two of the most beautiful people on the planet.
All the while coping with molestation. It changes you in so many ways that you don't even know about. Nature's way of compensating for deep emotional wounds that you're not even aware of until the effects surface throughout the course of a lifetime. Shot off in a radically altered trajectory. You have no sense of "normalcy" or "normal" emotional stability as a benchmark for comparison. You just do the best you can. That's why it's a crime. And it's likely worse for Hansi because of the unimaginable environment he was raised in. Like so many others, he likely shoulders the burden of concealing those wounds along with much more than anyone can imagine."
Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 03:58:14
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Yes, it's hard to imagine. I don't even want to. All I could think of, from my end of things, what would be lost, what I wouldn't have had the chance to appreciate. That's a tragic loss by the parent. I can't imagine it from the child's end of things, not having been there myself. So much worse.
Again, respect to this courageous pair!
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That was beautiful and gut-wrenching simultaneously John. It made me tear up. I am also a Dad. So sad everything.
This whole thing made me think of JK Rowlings character Voldemort. In the pursuit of power he lost everything, including his own soul.
By the way, I think you were probably right that at least partially there was a tendency in me to think that our cult and cult leader were not as bad as some of the others. Not that I really know much about them. I haven't watched all of those Netflix series. I wasn't interested in the lurid drama.
Well, that wishful thinking is now gone. I used to be able to joke about our cult and silly cult leader. I can't do that anymore.
We can only weep for the victims now and hope this will finally come to an end and justice will prevail in some form.
Modified by aunt bea at Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 10:15:09
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"But Prem Rawat - not only is there no 'Knowledge', and he has no wisdom greater than ours, but he doesn't even know how to be a decent and reasonable human being, respecting and appreciating others. Such a fraud and hypocrite."
He always was on the make, completely self-interested, using his family until he could throw them away. No thought for his mother's feelings, no thought for anything but himself. I highly recommend you read the updated https://prem-rawat-bio.org/childhood.html
which provides the evidence
Actually you can't go to his next event unless you're vetted beforehand and have a smartcard
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I remember him telling those stories of his childhood. As a premie, I didn't take them literally. I took his suffering and being afraid of his teachers and the burden of doing homework as an exaggerated story that he used to demonstrate that he understood what life was like for an ordinary kid (I was one, almost a year older than him). I also never did my homework and was frequently slippered and later caned for my lack of effort. I was still being caned after I was initiated. I was a schoolboy premie.
So I read into it what I wanted to read into it. I was in a cult.
Reading what you've written and linked to now, it is refreshingly straight forward, just reading it literally.
Above, I wasn't suggesting I've only realised he's fraudulent since these allegations came to light. More that the allegations show him to be even more fraudulent than I'd suspected. But that's it now. This is the bottom of the barrel.
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Thanks John, what a lovely post. I feel sorry for Hans too - I can't imagine what it would be like to grow up unable to trust either parent. Me, my brothers the dog and even the cat looked to my mother to look after us and largely she could. we had a lot of fun times too. I thought of my father like a force of nature to stay away from where possible.
It was some time in my 30's that I woke up thinking I have an angel and a devil on my shoulder and I will need to reconcile them at some time. But then my mother said she didn't want me to think of her and my father as a duo, that she wasn't party to him and what he did and to just think of her as one parent. I still feel close to her.
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Snap to every word of that 13.
As youngsters we created the whole DLM in the West shebang by painting a complete turd in the colours of our own dreams, energy, hopes and idealism. Holi in reverse in fact for many years. Now the paint has long gone and the turd stands revealed for what it it truly is.
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Hi aunt bea,
"I am just rambling right now, but I think there is something to this."
As I read your post entitled "More thoughts" in the AJW thread below, I was captured by what struck me as your crystal-clear insights. Then I bumped into the sentence I quoted above. "Not at all!," I thought. If only everyone could so graciously step back from themselves like that.
Your post is so clear and relevant that in the spirit of expressing high regards, my reply is to simply post a link to it here to increase the chances of it being read: (because not everyone knows about the "Go" filter above)
https://prem-rawat-talk.org/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/forum?cmd=get&cG=9333238313&zu=3933323332&v=2&gV=0&p=
To keep everything together, I encourage others to reply to aunt bea's original post below and read the entire exchange that helps distinguish the difference between pedophiles and child molesters.
Bob
Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 04:19:57
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Thanks Bob. But this is what I really want to say:
These revelations change everything. If there are any premies reading this, before you retreat into rationalising everything because of your beautiful experience, take 30 seconds to think about the implications of defending or even ignoring the fact that one of Maharaji's own children is accusing him of child molesting. And indicating that he is not the only one.
I know this level of betrayal of your lifelong trust must be overwhelming, but it is much worse to persist in being an enabler. That is what you will be if you turn your head from this. We all suffered deeply when we realised that we were duped. But from the moment of acceptance begins healing. Things do get better. Much better over time.
Modified by aunt bea at Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 09:55:51
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for making this thread. It was a good idea to bring it to the next level.
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I found myself overwhelmed with some many potential responses to this.
I have respect and gratitude to all those who have taken the risks and dealt with the emotion of posting here over the years. I never want to be coy or allude to things unfairly.
I suggest, if someone has time or interest review
- Ex-Premie.org Jagdeo page for how Prem Rawat's organization has dealt with serious, but less direct, issues in the past.
- Best of Forum - Mahatma topic and Suicide topic. Very relevant to how survivors who dare speak out have been dealt with in the past
- Review who works for or is on boards of Timeless Today, The Prem Rawat Foundation
- Review Charity Navigator, the Prem Rawat Foundation- how does their rating for whistleblower policy and conflict of interest sit with how they appear to have handled this thus far?
- Review the Lord of the Universe rules Wikipedia
- Read this again https://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/forum?cmd=get&cG=9313735353&zu=3931373535&v=2&gV=0&p=
That's a start. I never want to patronize anyone.
On that note, Hans is in his 40s and Shana is in her 30s. They are far from children anymore. They are fully adult, older than many of us when we began posting here. They have agency and decision making power over their own lives. It's natural to feel parental when most of us are old enough to remember Hans as a baby. We need to resist that, and respect their choices and decisions. I know most of us remember that but I think it bears saying.
Modified by Susan at Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 14:30:51
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Again from the 1in6 website
“Guilt or shame about previous silence. Oddly, guilt or shame about not speaking up sooner can be another powerful factor that keeps people from acting, even once they let themselves recognize that something is not right. Imagine you get a new job and in the first week you ask your boss about a minor but questionable expense on his expense account. He tells you to ignore it, that it’s OK, and you go on to let similar questionable expenses pass by each week. A year later, when a company audit raises the same questions, you find yourself trying to defend your boss’s actions to keep yourself from looking bad. Realizing that you’ve tolerated inappropriate or harmful behavior over and over tends to make it much harder to confront the behavior in the present. People tend to feel like they’re partly responsible, and come to have a stake in pretending or even believing that the behavior must have been OK.” https://1in6.org/common-questions/why-do-adults-fail-to-protect-children-from-sexual-abuse/
This article while not using the world cult does explain some dynamics at work in cults that fail to protect children.
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Shana Noel Rawat:
"Its a fact that family members and many others know that Both Marilyn and Prem are pedophiles with child sexual abuse victims."
"The daughters were present when Prem Rawat confessed to the ongoing molestation years ago on a recorded call." (Not to be misinterpreted as ongoing to this day.)
"My husband is not the only victim. He's the only victim willing to speak out."
"The Prem Rawat foundation/ timeless today and members of his family would rather protect their pedophile cult leader than protect the public."
"...lying to people about sexual abuse victims of parents."
In reply to the comment "how can the rest of the family just turn a blind eye," ... "I believe they are doing so for financial and selfish reasons." ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The above publicly available quotes imply that 1) both parents were involved; 2) there were multiple victims; 3) many others are aware of it; 4) efforts have been made to conceal it; and 5) the full scope remains unknown.
I would add that in response to Shana's question about "letting people within the foundation and organization know what your parents did," one of the daughters texted in reply that "I feel we need to be very intelligent and strategic there..."
I would also add that Shana's credibility insofar as Prem Rawat's molestation of her husband when he was a child is concerned is unasailable, which leaves no doubt whatsoever in my mind as to the credibility of her other statements.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Feb 02, 2024, 14:50:06
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Anth's post is up over 500 reads now. Usual number is around 200. So I guess it's gone a bit viral amongst premies?
Anyway, I wonder what Shana and Hans want from all this. Their posts so far are scattered about, mostly on FB. There doesn't seem to be a will to make public everything they know. This isn't a criticism of them. I'm just wondering whether they are prepared for more confrontation (maybe there's been a lot more confrontation than we know already?). Collating their posts into these logical threads would perhaps force some kind of conclusion. Is that what they want?
Is Prem Rawat going to acknowledge their accusations? Admit to them? Deny them? Accuse them of libel? Threaten legal action?
Perhaps we'll find out, because the option of ignoring them (at least publicly) becomes less feasible with these confronting messages.
I just hope they have some legal advice available, and have thought things through - where they want to go with this.
I know very little about this stuff, or the law, and have no idea how Rawat is likely to respond.
I'm all for the truth coming out. But I'd like it to be under the control of Shana and Hans and other victims, and with them having legal and other advice.
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great posts. so well said.
Whatever happens from here on, I do think in speaking up and backing up Shana and Hans can be proud of their achievement and done what was needed to get some fresh air for themselves. Good for them.
I've been reading up on the topic, I typed do other animals have pedophilia and found myself on Quora with some interesting points being made - attraction can't be changed, if you turn out to be a pedophile you lost the lottery as one poster put it - and I do remember thinking phew, glad I am age appropriate when I was old enough to recognise it was happening like that.
Apart from bonobos there didn't seem to be many incidences in other animals and then someone else said humans are very rare in having a hidden estrus which has rather fascinated me.
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Hi 13,
Thank you for raising such caring and thoughtful concerns. I'm sure they're shared by many others here, including myself, and they genuinely reflect how extraordinary, unsettling and serious all of this is.
I took the step of pointing out where to look on Facebook for Shana's posts because I felt it was important for folks here to be made aware of them. Later, after Anth's post (which Shana posted a link to), I felt compelled to quote her, in part to help eliminate any doubts concerning her credibility.
I also limited my posts to publicly available information and somehow managed to take on the role of a consolidator of sorts. (I was a professional organizer.) After this recent post, however, I felt that I reached the limits of my boundaries and taken it as far as I could.
Put another way, you're right; it's their story to tell if and when and however they choose.
I can add that there has been a lot more confrontation than we know already as evidenced by a vile screenshot in the 24 comments - not everything has been brought over from Facebook. I picture them in the eye of a storm that has been swirling around them for a number of years. I can also add that I've been told that Shana is deeply appreciative and supportive of everything that's been posted by everyone here.
Beyond that, I trust that they're handling their unimaginably extraordinary circumstances with clear heads as they go about their lives. All I can do now is watch for anything that might unfold knowing that I might not even hear about it when it does. I also don't expect to hear much from them beyond the occasional Facebook posts they've been making and I trust their reasons.
(As for Prem... all of the above?)
Beyond that, all I can do is join others here in expressing support and applauding them for their courage and integrity.
At least now we know what little we know so far.
I'm humbled that recent posts have brought out such moving posts as yours and that so many people are reading them.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Feb 02, 2024, 20:19:58
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The first time I read this. It said it all so well there was nothing I could add.
Just know I appreciate it. Thank you.
Modified by Susan at Sun, Feb 04, 2024, 18:45:21
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