|
|
|
I'm still looking through old documents trying to understand what happened to Rawatism in the 20 years while I was enjoying life with a local contact wife and not really caring what went on all those nights and week-ends she was out working for Rawat. If I'd known that I was going to end up as Prem's truthful ghost writer I would have paid a lot more attention as I should have. When I heard people talking about Smart Cards I laughed - smart cards and "the Speaker", you've got to be kidding.
"Without Smart Cards there needs to be a large verification team, including instructors available at every event which may not always be possible."
Why would they need to have a large verification team when the Speaker used to claim you could tell a premie by their smile?
I remember the last time I went to a program to see my wife I was held at the gate by some twerp who can't tell if I really was initiated by Padarthanand or not. My smile wasn't working. Luckily I saw Ron Leitch walking past outside, "Ronny, mate, can you come and tell this guy I'm okay?" Luckily the twerp knew a honcho when he saw one and off we went to a tent where the Speaker was, yes, speaking.
I notice that they were still using 'premies' in 2002 at least in private. The edicts below were communicated to active premies (pwks) via "First Class" the Elan Vital private communication system - late 2002.
IMPORTANT NEWS Passing this message on.
Attending events for People with Knowledge only. Dear all The Instructor Team in Europe would like your help in helping as many people as possible apply for Smart Cards now, well before any people with Knowledge only events with Maharaji next year. This year those people with a Smart Card had an easy time registering and accessing the venue . It made registering and attending the event easy, private and intimate. Those without Smart Cards had to queue and go through a verification procedure. As only people with Self Knowledge were invited, people without smart cards had to be interviewed by Instructors so they could ensure that the integrity of the invitation had been honoured. Being interviewed by someone to demonstrate that they have received Knowledge can be an ordeal for some. People get to an event tired, often don't know anyone and can feel upset. The last thing anyone wants is for people to feel like this at such an incredible time. Opportunities to spend time with Maharaji and learn from him are so precious. Those lucky enough to witness the beautiful interaction between Maharaji and his premies know how fortunate we are to be invited to these events. It is his invitation and we can help make it easy for people. So we would like help in reaching those premies who are not around or who think a Smart Card is unnecessary. They need to understand the benefits of the smart card system, not only to themselves, but also for the integrity of the event. With Smart Cards, people can be invited to events for people with Knowledge only with short notice. Without Smart Cards there needs to be a large verification team, including instructors available at every event which may not always be possible. Its important therefore that all people with knowledge get this message so they have enough time to apply and get their card. Applying now is a simple process, (please refer to the previous message called 'The Smart Card Initiative' for applications and Information.) Because the Smart Card can take approx 3 months to be delivered, the recommendation is to apply as soon as possible in preparation for the many future events that we all are looking forward to.
____________________________________________ Thank you in advance for helping. The Instructors in Europe
|
|
|
|
|
That is funny.
The Knowledge of all knowledges, as revealed by the Satguru, the Perfect Master, the reason the whole universe exists - once revealed to a suitably prepared initiate - makes no discernable difference. So a smart card is needed for verification.
I'd say you couldn't make it up, except, obviously, someone did.
|
|
|
|
and despite the description of it as a simple process, it takes 3 months to deliver a smart card! I wonder if they still have them.
|
|
|
|
Prem Rawat has been speaking before Knowledge Reviews on his recent African Tour.
A
new KR screening from the tour will be featured on Sunday 6th August at
Ivorys Rock, followed by a Knowledge Review. You will need to register
and bring your Smart Card.
These addresses were not live-streamed, and are available for a limited time only.
Updates Meeting - 3pm Saturday 5th August
You can join us in person in the Conference Hall or remotely by Zoom.
There
is a lot to share with you, including exciting new projects and
initiatives. Representatives from the Knowledge Session Team, Ivorys
Rock, Sponsorship, PEP and the new REV team will be presenting.
Focus Weekend - 4,5,6 August
Come
for the weekend or just for the day. Follow the link to read the
schedule of events and to book accommodation and catering.
Bookings close this Tuesday 1st Aug
Unfortunately
we are having issues with our email system. Please continue to check
the Focus Weekend page for updated information regarding these events,
or email Bruce.
We hope to have it rectified soon. Please let your friends know in case they are not receiving these emails. Thank you.
We look forward to welcoming you to the first Focus Weekend!
Gail Browne & Lesleigh Daly
For the Focus Weekend Team
|
|
|
|
Modified by lakeshore at Sat, Oct 14, 2023, 16:12:09
|
|
|
|
cor, that sounds like a barrel of laughs doesn't it,  - not sure if this is recent or 20 years old!
|
|
|
|
A Focus Session attendee posted on Facebook that Prem Rawat described the "inner peace" derived from Knowledge as "indestructible." Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be!  If satsang became keeping in touch, service became helping out, meditation became practicing and the Knowledge of God became inner peace, then why wouldn't the eternal and immortal part become indestructible! Can't have any of those wierd, controversial concept words floating around anymore. They might confuse someone.
"Opportunities to spend time with Maharaji and learn from him are so precious. Those lucky enough to witness the beautiful interaction between Maharaji and his premies know how fortunate we are to be invited to these events."
(As he takes HIS seat high aloft at a safe distance in fine attire surrounded by high-tech regalia with commoners in their rightful place beneath him, minds still, straining to hear every whisper.)
And don't miss yet another precious opportunity to hear about "exciting new projects and initiatives," fifty years of which amounted to something like a seventy percent reduction in followers.
It's as if they live in an alternate atmosphere. They call it "an oasis of love in a world of make believe, fantasy..."
Ah the memories... of being so far out there in la la land that I really did believe the world was a fantasy (because Prem Rawat said so), and my cult indoctrination - my "clear" and "conscious" understanding - was the true indestructible reality. Thankfully, all it took to destroy the indestructible was a smidgeon of truth and a few facts about Prem Rawat's hidden lifestyle and behavior. No wonder the cult tried to paint his former followers as a hate group and a bunch of unlit matches who came for the wrong reasons.
Modified by lakeshore at Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 16:51:26
|
|
|
|
'the beautiful interaction between Maharaji and his premies'
well I have to say I am not surprised to see that the terms Guest Speaker and his Pwks didn't catch on.
It's eerie though, isn't it - how opposite the underlying reality is to appearance.
We just see a cult member attending his rally - it's not a pretty sight, particularly in light of all we know about Rawat.
But for the premie this is not in his sight, it is the underlying reality in his life but he believes in Rawat's spiel - he is having a beautiful interaction with the most worshipful, adorable important man on the planet!!!
I had a friend who said when I exited that he'd always thought of Maharaji like he was a witch doctor - it didn't matter what the truth of him was, it was by him taking on the role of Maharaji we got to have the experience of that interaction.
It furrowed my brow when he said that, I just knew it wouldn't add up, cracks would appear...
I'm not entirely sure I can muster an argument as to why but I do think it matters a lot who the person is.
|
|
|
|
Lesley, I would like to hear more responses to this particular gem: "...it didn't matter what the truth of him was, it was by him taking on the role of Maharaji we got to have the experience of that interaction".
I kind of half agree and half disagree with this. In one way it doesn't matter who the witch doctor is - it is all about the illusion. But in another way is does matter because a truly good person wouldn't have taken advantage of people in the cruel ways that the boy guru did. If he really were a genuine 'witch doctor' then he would have helped people with whatever gifts he had and not tried to abuse and steal from them. But then he never had anything to offer but cheap fakir tricks anyway. And yes, we did generate our own experiences - I think this can be seen by the similar reactions of fans to rock stars and other celebrity figures. People scream and cry and faint in their presence - from an exeperience that they generated for themselves. Some of us did similar things with the guru. The syndrome of fainting or being overcome by beauty is a self generated experience. Why do some people react while others don't feel anything? If the power came from the guru then he could repeat the experience for everyone all the time. But it is a self-generated thing. He might have served as a trigger, but that was by implanting ideas into our heads about him and who he was. Then faced with him in person, we gave ourselves an experience. But get too close, and the emperor has no clothes on. You have made me think - I love thinking. I need to ponder this more.
|
|
|
|
I hate to interrupt your thinking, but I'm not seeing a whole lot left to ponder. You nailed it in the first round. All true, both sides even.
A cruel, exploitative, self-serving trigger of a self-generated experience (of an illusion) who feeds the process by implanting ideas into peoples' heads? Something like that?
I have to add that it takes an incredibly selfish person to think that it doesn't matter what the truth of Prem Rawat is.
Modified by lakeshore at Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 19:51:58
|
|
|
|
Lakeshore - I have seen this repeated in so many different religions, all because people seem to need or at least want some kind of transformative being/ experience/ life etc. Both before and after the guru, I tried to find this in different ways. And so many premies were doing drugs before rawat because they were looking for something transcendent too. I never did drugs, but my addiction was always for spiritual type experiences. I was a sucker because I was so desperately seeking something I could surrender to.
I have seen this most recently in the followers of trump. They don't care what the truth is - they want so much to believe in him and to surrender control of their lives to him so they accept the cognitive dissonance of his actions/words when compared with reality. It is so much easier to be a child than to be a parent, and that means a lot of people will willingly give over control of their minds to complete fakes and frauds to someone who promises them things they want to believe in and frees them of all resonsibility. I know, I have been sucker so many times because I sincerely wanted to believe that something was true.
I think it is a bit of disease (at least it was for me) - like romantic love, that lets you overlook all the faults and obvious warning signs in a relationship. Danger, Will Robinson!
Yes, we are personally responsible for our own actions, but when the con artist, or flim flam person, uses our own vulnerabilities against us, then the real blame lies with them. I truly do hope there is such a thing as karma, but being the cynic I am today, I find it hard to believe that there will actually ever be any justice for evil doers. But I can still fantasize about it!
Modified by Aquinas at Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 22:33:05
|
|
|
|
I feel all that too.
I don't get it. A person can do horrible things and good things. We want our love algebra to be if is we love someone and or they have an amazing talent they can't be a predator.
I didn't find Knowledge to be so amazing, some did, but if he points at a sunset and claims to have created it? So what? It never proved anything.
|
|
|
|
The need to belong to a group preferably with a clear leader we can rally around outweighs moral judgement or demonstrable truth. Tribalism wins. Rationality has only a small part to play, occasionally.
Imagine there's no Jehovah. No Allah too. It's easy if you try. And yet, the middle East.
|
|
|
|
I remember as teenagers we had this idea that the trouble in the Middle East was being caused by the armament factories and I still get this sneaking feeling that there is something to that.
I dunno if it was much reported overseas but we had a referendum here over whether we would change the constitution to give a voice to Aboriginal peoples in parliament - I mostly avoided discussion about it but was horrified to note it had become a hot button topic. How can you do that, this was not a time for anything else - just a bit of humanity. I didn't wear a badge, but I voted yes out of pure emotion.
It was interesting, I got people from both sides looking down their noses at my badge-less chest but my experience on the day was so warm-feeling. It's sad it didn't go through. It's such an insult. Yes of course, as ever, as always the devil will be in the details, but this was a request from the elders. How could you not say yes, it's like saying Terra Nullius all over again.
But try saying that to a conspiracy theorist. Or just right wing for that matter.
And I'd just have to hope a left winger didn't notice the devil in the details - she voted yes, that's enough to accept her as one of us.
But to me the divide I want to pay attention to the most is is this person kindhearted or malicious in intent. Though perhaps I should be paying more attention to the smoke in the air - the fire is not close by and just looking to the south it looks like we have clouds coming, light but hopefully a drop or two.
|
|
|
|
Lesley, we didn't wear badges around here, and I had no idea there were so many people who would vote No becase the people around me were all Yes voters. I was severely disappointed in Australians for being so racist, and sad for the indigenous people, who were only asking for a voice. What a shameful thing to happen. I just can't understand the reasoning behind a No vote.
Stay safe from fires in your area. We are still wet here so probably ok until mid summer.
|
|
|
|
And Guru Maharaj Ji was only asking for your love.
I know I'm not racist because I think Aboriginal people are just as selfish and nasty as those of us of European background.
Its back to the 1970s, everyone around you were premies loving and worshipping the Perfect Master and how could all those non-premies be so ... so so wrong ... maybe they were racist?
|
|
|
|
Wow, hostile much? I didn't say anything about emotion. I said I didn't wear a badge (didn't know there were any) but I voted yes. I didn't see any reason why we shouldn't give a voice to the original inhabitants of this land. As for the rest of your rant, I can't say I really understood what you were trying to say. It didn't make a lot of sense to me.
And yes, I do think a No vote is a racist vote.
|
|
|
|
"I didn't wear a badge, but I voted yes out of pure emotion."
I think you've nailed it 100% there. The Yes vote came from emotion, wanting to feel good about a situation we can only feel terrible about
"It's sad it didn't go through. It's such an insult. " but this was a request from the elders.
You don't insult someone by answering no to a request and since when has age had some incontrovertible sanctity and authority?
This reminds me of the 1970s DLM thinking? The world's a mess but the guru will fix everything. Don't think it, just feel it. Just feel it. I recall it didn't work too well then and at least, right or wrong about the Voice, I didn't go with the feeling this time. I thought about it what was best for those who need help and I don't see the gurus, the elders, having some special Knowledge.
|
|
|
|
thought you might have been a no vote. I know another man at the bridge club, I have a lot of respect for him, he is a nice person but I didn't enjoy his efforts to convince me to vote no. And I would respond to him by saying yes of course there are dodgy deals involved, of course bad stuff will happen but so what, that's always the case, that's all going to happen anyway.
I was using the term elders in an aborigine way. The system of government by the elders was based in just normal behaviour - the people who had survived to old age and gained the love and respect of all the tribe members became the elders. Maybe this wasn't happening in every tribe but there does seem to have been numbers of tribes where it worked like that. Anyway it is real, I see the faces and I hear the voices and I feel the echo of those times. Those people, that naturally would have become elders - I want to listen to them.
Yes it is about feeling. I feel it is courage and a humble heart behind the request for a voice and shameful we did not agree to what feels like a very grown up step forward in reconciliation.
I think the most cogent argument for the no vote was that it tilted against the non-racial stance of politics by giving 2 seats on a racial basis.
Against that I give you Terra Nullius. This was their country and why not make an acknowledgment of that.
I don't really expect them to be able to fix anything and I agree there are selfish people in every race but there are also good people and this is their country - maybe they do know some stuff.
Modified by lesley at Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 01:31:41
|
|
|
|
To acknowledge agreement, I kept wanting to post an audio file of raucous monkeys in the jungle, but every time I read your post, anything funny seemed entirely inappropriate. On top of that, the various primates I listened to seemed far more intelligent and in harmony with their natural rain forest habitat than much of what I see and hear these days.
Even the monkey that wiped it's butt with a diamond is more intelligent. (Punch line of a Prem Rawat joke.)
Thanks as always.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 12:46:02
|
|
|
|
Much is said about Prem Rawat's deceptions, but not nearly as much about individual vulnerabilities. Once again, you captured them beautifully, especially as they relate to mine.
I don't recall being moved as much by a post since Lp's (2009?) post comparing an aspen tree stand (the world's largest single living organism) to humanity and Prem Rawat/Knowledge to a fungus killing the subterranean root system - an analogy to all the senseless sacrifices made by premies and the mental, emotional and material harm done to them.
Your post was moving because you described the essence of my vulnerabilities. I haven't changed. They're still there. It's just that I'm much better at keeping a lid on them. It also reminded me of when I was so desperate for Maharaji's validation and approval that I physically, mentally and emotionally self-generated my way into the darshan recovery area. I needed to be there. I'd invested so much and tried so hard to be a good devotee. Yet I was still suffering and only Maharaji's look of approval could help ease my pain. I needed that look so much that whatever look I got, I interpreted it as the one I needed and down I went. (I did manage to make my way to the floor mats! I mean, I'm not stupid! )
Lastly, it's deplorable when a con artist exploits their prey's deeply personal vulnerabilities and uses them against them. Thank you for saying that as well.
It takes a lot of deconstruction and humility, i.e., soul searching, to arrive at everything you just said.
Modified by lakeshore at Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 09:05:12
|
|
|
|
Lakeshore, I resonate with your comment about wanting Mjs validation and approval. I seem to have this need for approval frequently when dealing with authority figures, and I have to fight very hard against it.
I currently have an authority figure in my life, whose comments have the power to upset me and make me feel bad about myself. I don't think (in this case) that it is entirely her fault because despite her behaviour, I am an adult and don't have to react to things she says. But I do, and then I end up feeling belittled and incompetent.
My solution these days is to emotionally distance myself from the person involved. I still see her because of her position but I did consider leaving that environment completely to avoid seeing her. Then I decided I would be denying myself by letting her drive me away. After all, her position is a temporary one and she will probably be gone in a year. I just needed to make my wings stronger and to fly further away from her while still being in the same environment. So although we are sharing the environment, I have removed myself from any activities where I have to answer to her.
Now she looks at me kind of strangely, like she doesn't understand what has changed in our relationship, but even there I doubt myself and wonder if I am imagining things. Nevertheless, I disconnected myself from activities that involved her approval or disapproval of my actions, and feel pretty sure that I have insulated myself from that particular failing in me. I haven't solved it or been cured of it, but I am reasonably protected from it.
I haven't even considered discussing it with her because I know that whether her behaviour is conscious or unconscious - my reaction is what matters most to me. It reminds me a little of when Mji came into Visions and I just sat on the desk - the disconnect from authority or seeking approval. It can be done.
And I totally relate to the darshan recovery experience, as I passed out nearly every time (years sometime went by between darshans so I had time to build up those expectations). And oh yes, I always saw exactly the response I needed from Mji in a look that was probably actually aimed 3 feet above my head or at the person behind me in line. We made our own realities.
I think it's ok to be vulnerable, and even needy occasionally, but we also need to have ways to protect ourselves from those who might take advantage of our vulnerabilities. In the past, I have frequently just run away from conflicts, and sometimes I still do, but I am also trying to learn how to make that disconnect from those authority figures who seem to bring out that hurt inner child in me. In my family, we sometimes use a saying, "I have wings of steel!" and I use this when trying to deal with situations like this. Invulnerable on the outside, even if a jellyfish on the inside. LOL
|
|
|
|
Hi Acquinas,
Your struggle to cope with how that authority figure affected you seems identicle to several authority figures I've struggled to cope with. I tried to meditate my way out of those situations (along with so many others), which only led to an even more unhealthy cause and effect psychosis as it related to grace following effort. I was convinced that there was no problem I couldn't conquer or protect myself from with the sword of his Knowledge and the shield of his grace!
It HAS to be okay to be vulnerable because we all are. Anyone who doesn't think so really is a fool, paradise or no paradise. Ask any dinasaur. Hurt inner child. Invulnerable on the outside and jellyfish on the inside. I'm busted! My invisibility cloak is falling apart! It was the weight of the iron shield I was lugging around that finally did me in, i.e., the weight of the facade I needed to hide all that mush, not to mention hide the fact that I was a foot-kissing guru worshipper!
It's an outrage that you (and many others) were duped (by someone you thought was your protector!) into giving away your grandmother's inheritance and that the cult proactively encourages premies to include Prem Rawat in their wills. It's tantamount to robbing from their children and others who never had anything to do with him or who may even deeply resent him. And what does that say about the cult-inflicted damage done to the moral compasses of complicit premies who facilitate it?
I've mentioned it many times, but I'll never forget the forms ashram premies filled-out in 1978 that gathered information about the wealth of their parents and grandparents, e.g., occupations, incomes, estimated net worth, anticipated inheritances, etc. I remember because it was my "service" to distribute, gather and submit those forms to Prem Rawat's Divine Light Mission. Where was my head at!
Darshan - the kissing of Prem Rawat's feet! - is an extreme form of mental abuse and coercion; a psychological assault of the hightest order with long-term consequences. That level of submissiveness and subservience and the giving away of so much of one's dignity results in empty vessels or worse - vessels filled with love for their subjugator - which is exactly what the manipulative, exploitative and empathy-less subjugator wants.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Oct 20, 2023, 06:56:08
|
|
|
|
and he labels us unlit matches. It is beyond insulting that a person could describe their faith and trust as you have, and many of us have, and be told, well, we just didn't believe or try hard enough. Blame us. Of course.
What did Don say happened when he confronted Prem about his alcoholism? Who told you? Then, maybe it's a test.
He knows exactly what he is, and I believe that the inner circle knows too, and they need to break the cycle of the betrayal and exploitation of his followers, his children and grandchildren, his follower's children and grandchildren, the school children who learn his message of peace and quote him without access to the truth about him, the prisoners, probation departments, police departments, drug rehabs that present the Peace Education without presenting his history.
When someone has a history like he does, tricking people into believing he is God because he demanded they surrender the reins of their lives to him, you don't walk away from that and pretend it never happened. And any other crimes may have commited and certainly the way he handled the Jagdeo isssue are relevant to all of the stakeholders and those affected by this cult.
|
|
|
|
"it was by him taking on the role of Maharaji we got to have the experience of that interaction."
I heard Maharaji say the same thing! Maybe your friend heard him say it at the same time.
Prem Rawat was saying that there's nothing more incredible than the master/devotee relationship. He went on to say that it's only possible when there is a master and a devotee. Then he said - literally - that he was willing to take on the role of master! I heard him say it!
It shook furrowed my brow for a moment because it came out of nowhere and it was entirely incongruent with his "normal" satsang. I thought to myself, "You mean, this is all role playing and as long as I make it real in my life it's the most incredible experience I can ever have as a human being?"
Yes! That's exactly what he meant. It's just that by then, it was too late to opt out of the play. It had to be real because after all that... after the ashram era and all those festivals and all those darshan lines and all that satsang, there was absolutely no turning back (not that I ever considered it). I was too invested. Therefore, it is real. Never doubt it and forget you ever heard that.
But he said it!
He know's he's a fraud, an actor at least. There's no other way to interpret it.
Modified by lakeshore at Mon, Oct 16, 2023, 19:20:32
|
|
|
|
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cl8KFW5o6qX/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
|
|
|
|
It's an interesting point. I recall that and having the same thought. It is all just role play.
Some very strange psychology at play? Rawat justifies himself by convincing himself that by playing out the role of 'master' (if only occasionally, grudgingly and at enormous expense) he does premies a genuine service that then enables a real and inherent experience of God. Premies simply have to believe - leave no room for doubt in their minds - for the process to work. So a philosophical conundrum. Is a fools paradise any less a paradise for being that of a fool?
Modified by tommo at Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 16:48:22
|
|
|
|
As ratso himself once said:'So what if you win the rat race - your still a rat.
|
|
|
|
The thing that I was wondering in my first post is does it matter what the person behind the mask is actually like.
In my personal experience of men behind masks I can answer that easily, yes the hell it does.
It is harder to make the case where it is a figurehead, the guru is not personal to me, we never even shook hands, well he waved a hand in my general direction when I first queued up to kiss his feet and cupped my ear.
If that witch doctor points the bone it is real trouble whether you earned it or not so from an individual perspective as well as for the whole tribe it really depends what sort of a person the witchdoctor is in how well they will all fare.
The fact remains that Rawat promoted himself as The only One and Only for everyone on the planet, that is what we fell for - it is a bait and switch to say he is playing the role rather than actually being your one and only. How many of us would have said yes to him saying I will pretend to be the living messiah so you can imagine you are interacting with the most important person in the whole world to you - and all I want for this onerous task is some miserable slaves, the odd mansion and a few planes.
Of course it matters the hell for those slaves what sort of person he is.
How much does it matter to the premies who don't interact personally with him other than to be in the audience at his stage performances?
So yes the other thing I was thinking of in making that post was how those premies tend to rely on the idea that what Rawat is like in private doesn't matter, and yet that strikes at the heart of what we believed in the first place - that he was the god of love - messenger from our very creator, Our Saviour in truth, is his anger to be feared or trusted - how righteous do you need to be, he is present in every moment.
Let's follow Aquinas round the corner and accept it says a lot about the man behind the mask just because he wants to wear it.
I'd like to be able to say no, if it not personal, just a witch doctor on a stage that you see every so often then it doesn't matter what the man is really like in private. But I can't help but have this feeling maybe it does...
Well just for a start it comes with believing what he says on that stage, being affected by the group experience as if it is all from him and being influenced in what you do by what he wants.
|
|
|
|
Lesley - you hit the nail on the head with that post. It was the bait and switch - the lying and deceit that really matter. The tools of the con artist who takes advantage of the mark - and we were all marks.
Yes, it does matter what the person behind the mask is like. Evil can only succeed when it disguises itself as good, and by the time people figure it out, it is often too late to recover. We see this in political leaders in history and around the world. Lies, lies and more damned lies.
Rawat is just evil, surrounded by enablers who may or may not be evil, but who are complicit.
|
|
|
|
Google translate from Hindi
Servant Lord, opinions should not be united in one opinion,
cleverness is not a bear, the feelings of the mind
are not a bear, the teacher knows the human body, call them
male, blind people will go ahead in the trap of Yama.
do you recognize me? |
Whenever religion on earth suffers from atrocities. come for upliftment, I fight with solid thoughts. In the destruction that the wicked do, the sages attain salvation. This is our game, this is what the religious texts explain. When the whole world is engulfed in the ocean of darkness. When the knowledge of self disappears, man cannot understand anything.
Every now and then I come into the world and blow the trumpet of knowledge. I explain the secrets to the curious people by giving them the eyes of knowledge. There is divine vision within, only then I am recognized. Ignorant gods get confused when I create my game. Someone opposes me, someone makes fun of me. Someone, after listening to my words, blows the conch in reverse. I always remain like this among ignorant people. I complete my plans and tolerate the things of the world. To a certain extent, I show the world an easy path. When the hundred abuses are over then I enjoy the real fun. Seeing my silence, people consider me ordinary.
International peacekeepers who
do not believe what I say have been read for some time.
15 Had the sin gone, destruction is in its mouth Let's go. so get up World in the ones object Precious I have brought.
I have come to play the same old game with you.
© Message international peace...
|
|
|
|
Hi Tim,
Excellent philosophical conundrum!
I thought it would be easy at first. Then the darn thing stuck like an intractible One Foundation earworm. Then I deleted everything I wrote and went back to the drawing board. Now I know why they call it a conundrum.
I came around to something like if it's strictly limited to a real or imagined experience that is qualitatively the same, then I'll go out on a limb and say no, a fool's paradise is NOT any less a paradise for being that of a fool.
Eventually, it occurred to me that one difference between a real and a fool's paradise might be consequences, i.e., how does that paradise affect the fool's behavior and by extension the people around that fool? For example, a fool who sits perfectly still on a hill day after day watching the world spin around is by far preferable to a mob of starry-eyed proselytizers on a divine mission to spread their paradise.
Also, not that it addresses the conundrum, but Lesley's question about "does it matter what the person behind the mask (paradise) is actually like" kept surfacing. Of course it matters, especially as it relates to consequences. For example, if it's Taylor Swift, then perhaps not so much. But if it's a flagrant con artist with no empathy dangling paradise as bait for entrapment and personal gain, then it matters a whole lot.
Then the question of what business of mine is it if a fool wants to enjoy his or her paradise popped-up. Again, publicly or privately? This much I know: as a good neighber and a tiny thread in the fabric of humanity, I feel a duty to call 911 when I see a robber or an arsonist enter my neighbor's house paradise!*
The conundrum also goes to an old forum question about whether it might be better for old-age lifers to live out their days in their (false, make-believe or fool's) paradise because the shock and trauma of coming to terms with the truth about Prem Rawat at that stage in their lives might be too much for them to bear, i.e., hazardous to their health.
These are the best non-answers I can come-up with. Also, it's reassuring that you heard Prem Rawat say the same thing I heard him say. Now I know I'm not entirely crazy.
* An analogy to the damage done to victims of personality cults.
Modified by lakeshore at Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 10:05:48
|
|
|
|
Hi Bob,
I agree about consequences being the measure. A fool's paradise is an undignified and unseemly place to be - unworthy of a human being.
So yes I too have thought around this topic - indeed the opening reflection in my very first post here was that it might just as well have been my cat as Rawat sitting in the darshan chair. i.e. all the validation came from belief and Rawat was of no relevance whatsoever. Cynthia - the first to reply - accurately pointed out that the cat would of course be a far better alternative.
As I recall it the reality of the 'fools paradise' of being a premie was not any deeper or more profound a paradise than any other - no different in quality and no less fleeting than any of those moments that we all have in life (that happen when you are busy making other plans ). All we actually had was a belief that we and our premie experience was 'special'. No joy was added to the sum total of life - and possibly none subtracted - except for the burdensome overhead of Rawat and a strange and life-limiting belief system. I am convinced that nobody actually benefited in any way -- so personally I would have no compunction in puncturing the bubble of any long term premie -- because there is nothing real there for them to lose and although in some part of their imagination they might have a relationship with Rawat -- it's nothing real -- and the loss won't actually hurt ---so I'd also bet that when Rawat finally expires neither will any of the surviving premies genuinely mourn - which might surprise them.
My conclusion - such as it is - is that being a premie is an abject state - akin to remaining a child - to believe in Father Christmas - to (ironically) prefer ignorance to knowledge - to abdicate from taking responsibility for your own life. When I exited I saw it as a restoration of independence, dignity and indeed manhood. At last - freedom like a blast of cool mountain air. My first philosophical port of call was Marcus Aurelius and stoicism and I still find the aspirations expressed therein a better thing to shoot for than any fools paradise (as 13 asks below maybe all paradises are strictly for fools ?).
https://fourminutebooks.com/marcus-aurelius-quotes/
Tim
Modified by tommo at Wed, Oct 18, 2023, 16:23:34
|
|
|
|
Tim, very well put. To be a premie is to remain in an unformed childish state. One where you have no (evil) thoughts of your own! To be in an artificial womb. Before my ashram days, my wild hippie days/daze, I tried heroin once. I totally hated it. Hated it vehemently! I felt like I was in this place apart from experiencing life, an artificial womb. I could see why someone would want to go through life not feeling, with a thick membrane protecting one from directly interacting with the intensity of living. Then why oh why did I turn around and jump right into another artificial womb of K/Ji/ashram life?After 50 years of this life, it is no wonder premies are so afraid to bust out of this bubble and walk out into the rough and tumble experience called life. Years ago I spent a week or so at the Maher Baba retreat center in North Myrtle Beach, SC. I was hanging in the common kitchen/dining room chatting with some long time "Baba Lovers." One was drinking coffee from a mug where the handle formed the large beak of a toucan. The man said this mug looked like Baba, who had a big nose. Everything in his life looked like Baba. Well, I felt I was looking in a mirror. Years I felt like the world looked like a short pudgy narcissist! Now the whole world looks like a giant orange blob topped with a yellow ferret! URGH
|
|
|
|
Where it all matters, as people have pointed out, is in the consequences. We were young and naive for the most part and this con artist convinced us that giving away our potential and all our money was a good thing. This is SCAM 101 which makes MJ the con artist, not the teacher, not the god, nada. I gave away not only my weekly pay packet, but also my inheritance from my grandmother, and my future careers, wasting time thinking that I was helping the world by supporting this person who said he was the one who could save it.
Not even a Fool's Paradise. Just an ugly SCAM.
|
|
|
|
I've arrived at thinking fools' paradises are the only ones available.
I'm 66.
|
|
|
|
Painful cringe song. Bad enough when it’s romantic love never mind when someone has tricked you into believing they are your “master”- even in your darkest hour i would still like to be in your will.
“Only to realize it never really was”
|
|
|
|
Concise and probably accurate again 13!
But maybe it's just that we all find our equal paradises equally briefly - but it's only the fools that think that they and theirs are special?
|
|
|
|
I do think there's a world of difference between real paradises that enrich your soul - spots in nature where you just feel like you are in paradise, reciprocity in love. But being fooled into thinking you are in paradise if you can just fix a few things is no, it is worse than just empty. It is good money after bad until the bank is broke.
I live in a nice spot with my animals and plants - that's the equal spot - I am neither in a real paradise or a fool's paradise. It is inestimably better than the fool's paradise I was in and I've gone from being in a situation which I clearly understood to be deteriorating to here I am in a warm spot, hard to describe but it's like coming out of the freezer, shivering a lot only to regain a sense of self like a nice woollen vest.
I think the witchdoctor idea is a way premies have of dodging the truth of their situation. The innocent fool's paradise is no more once you take on board that it is just a stage show and that's it. How can you get excited about seeing him after that?
And that's maybe where a person starts to feel like a fools paradise is better than no paradise, it's as if you're putting a bandaid over the hurt feelings which would come with actually seeing how badly you've been done by a conman.
|
|
|
|
I'm laughing because I really struggled to come-up with something I could pass-off as almost a plausible reply to the conundrum Tim quoted. Then you come right out and compare the rich, authentic and textured qualities of our post-cult lives to THAT fool's paradise!
I fold, or whatever you call throwing in the cards in bridge.
Depending on how it's interpreted, not everthing Prem Rawat said was wrong:
1. Maharaji was absolutely right. That camel dung ladu (my life as a premie) tasted like shit but I ate it anyway because I was told it was the best ladu in the world. The problem was that I didn't know it tasted like shit until I tasted a real ladu (my post-cult life)... "like coming out of the freezer, shivering a lot only to regain a sense of self like a nice woolen vest."
2. His bit about climbing the mountain only to find nothing there... "So right back down you go." Chasing a fool's pot of gold only to find real gold right back where you started.
3. A rock can be submerged in the ocean (the cult) for, well, thirty-six years. Take it out and on a sunny day it's as if it never touched the water. (Not quite that easy, but you get the point.)
Thank you Lesley. Sheesh! It was right under my nose!
|
|
|
|
I feel like I've written my little heart out these last few days. It's been a great conversation hasn't it.
I think you fold when you're playing poker. Bridge you concede all tricks, usually the opposition has already claimed all the tricks first.
I'm not playing today tho. Bridge partnerships are really the main thing in the game and I am very politely dodging one. Interestingly I recognised the core of our difficulties in being interactive was that she wasn't being herself.
I don't know whether it's so much that there isn't a place for rationality as that it is lost under a lot of lies being protected.
Modified by lesley at Thu, Oct 19, 2023, 20:19:54
|
|
|
|
There's another way of interpreting that sentence.
'role' as in an actress taking on the role of playing the wife of Winston Churchill in a movie Kristin Scott Thomas was willing to take on the role of wife
Clementine Ogilvy taking on the role of wife to Winston Churchill in real life Clementine Ogilvy was willing to take on the role of wife
With English you must decide from the context which meaning is meant and I think in the context of Rawat's life it was Clemetine and not Kristen but I am just as confident that your take is correct and not mine
|
|
|
|
“7. Secrets
Cults withhold information when recruiting or proselytizing. It is shared only after you have “progressed,” that is, until you are sufficiently indoctrinated and committed”
I knew someone without the smart card that saw an old time 1970s initiator walk by whilst being interrogated and was able to get in.
|
|
|
|
Ron wasn't a 1970s initiator but he was a DLM ashram identity and the owner of the Brisbane office block in which satsang was held and various DLM other premie activities took place. (ashram, property owner? WTF?) He was also a very cheerful guy who didn't really care that I was an ex as far as I could tell. Incredibly his life took a downwards turn but I am sure he is well-remembered by all who knew him.
|
|
|
|
The one I talked to was awhile ago too. Premie monitors move on. Seriously I don’t know anyone who penetrated your recent events.
(I have a hard enough time keeping the damn earworms songs out of my head … this helps…
|
|
|
|
Still have my 'what a gullible dullard' card safe upstairs in a draw.
|
|
|
