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Oh how the famous are falling!
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Posted by:
old timer ®

12/19/2017, 01:50:11
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I am surprised at the number of celebrities who are being accused of sexual harassment. Dustin Hoffman is one of the latest and many popular and well known people have skeletons in their closets that are now surfacing. Who will it be next? Karen mentioned below that there is no escape from karma or the cause and effect of our personal actions. It seems that some people escape all the consequences of their actions but Stalin for example was left to die after a stoke because people were too afraid to intervene and left it too late. His last illness  dragged on for several days and was not pleasant. The mass murderer got what he deserved in the end. Maybe. If you don't believe in divine justice there are many who have gotten off scot free. Death is death. That's another topic. 

A number of years ago there was an inquiry into Mahatma Jagdeo's sexual activities with some young people following Rawat. He had taken advantage of his position as a teacher and mentor and had made sexual advances to minors. There were cover ups and lies and he was never really brought to justice in India. He is dead now.

So here we have Rawat, who in my opinion is an ordinary man whose legacy was left to him by his father who was an Indian Sat Guru. As a result, Rawat or Maharaji as he was called, has in some way or another managed to get almost everyone on this forum to follow him for a period of time. During that time many gave up everything to the man and his organization because we believed he was the Sat Guru or living perfect master. Not every one believes that but we all have our own story for being here.

With the internet gaining popularity in the 90s, the Ex Premie website and others, became platforms for people to express their opinions about Rawat and his teachings and many began to question his real agenda and his ability to be in such a powerful position. Much has been revealed on this site and discussed on this forum over the years. Books have been written  and people have uncovered things that I personally had no idea were going on behind the scenes. I was really shocked and taken aback by people's honesty and courage to come forward and express their fears and doubts. Leaving a cult is not easy. There are some cults that are more malicious than others but it is the ongoing brain washing year in and year out that is difficult to shake off and walk away from. This site has helped many to do that.  

So back to the beginning of my topic. Oh how the mighty are falling! Rawat still continues to rally the troops, bring in new recruits from all over the world and speak to the veterans who probably believe he is still " The Lord...of the Universe"

What amazes me is that there are still so many pleasant, intelligent people who can see through political intrigues, and movies about cults and corrupt leaders but are unable to see the guru for who he really is. His past has been forgiven, glossed over, dirt swept under the carpet or it never existed because he is above it all and can do what he bloody well likes. Isn't that what all dictators do even the more benevolent ones. If you look around the world or study history, one can see how money has corrupted many of the leaders dead and alive. In my lifetime, there have been many.

Rawat certainly lives a privileged lifestyle way beyond his needs and from what I've read here, he certainly has had sexual encounters with members of his followers despite being the leader of a humanitarian Organization and being married with four children. Well, four fingers are pointing at me and I don't want to come across as being puritanical but surely when one uses one's position to seduce devotees it becomes sexual harassment.

I personally never encountered this during my years in the organization but I was certainly spiritually taken advantage of and led a life of Chastity, Poverty and Obedience for many years which deprived me of the opportunity to have a decent career, a normal sex life and a chance to grow as a human being. Instead I was conditioned and led an unnatural life for decades putting my guru and my devotion to him above everything else. While I was doing that ...Rawat was driving around in expensive cars, had numerous houses and was and is living a luxurious lifestyle. He was doing things that would have totally blown my mind as a young sincere devotee or follower. He was often abusive and rude to those who were close to him and had a serious drinking problem. So no one is perfect, but remember he was the living Perfect Master and for many including myself, he was beyond reproach. He deserved to have the best of everything - luxurious, furniture, expensive cars, private jets, many watches, wardrobes of clothes, the best hotel rooms etc.

Speaking the truth is important. the revelations about Kevin Spacey began the tidal wave of sexual allegations. He is now in treatment and has apologised for his sexual misbehavior. His career for the time being is ruined.  Even Sir Richard Branson is in trouble.

So why is it that so many current followers are not seeing the bait and switch techniques, the cover ups and lies? People love his Meditation, the events and celebrations and the fun atmosphere. They are grateful. As I said above,  there are some very nice people who still go to his events. The charitable approach has appealed to many but as I see it, Rawat continues to use his message to support his family and extravagant lifestyle. After all the Guru game is a family business and in one way or another his three other brothers are profiting from it.  

Do you believe in Karma, cause and effect, the consequences of our action, the butterfly effect? Will Rawat like Howard Hughes have his day? Will Rawat ever apologise for all the harm he has done to people's lives? Many are here on this forum. Please read the Journey section.   

Can I forgive Maharaji? Well Yes, but with reservations still.  I am still a survivor of this cult and was in it for decades. My current Rawat friends still fail to understand why I left and don't for the most part even mention it now. However, My family and close friends do understand, because they saw what happened to me both before and after I was a cult member.

So thank you all for being there and continuing to show the world that Rawat is in fact a charlatan even if his meditation and charities are helping people. That might sound strange, but it is the means to the end which is wrong and so many people have been led down the garden path only to find themselves in the wrong garden! I hope that those that believe they are walking the path of truth with Rawat, wake up and see the dream. It certainly is time for the Rawat myth to be seen for what it really is. One post at a time.  Cheers Old Timer

  







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Karma!
Re: Oh how the famous are falling! -- old timer Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/19/2017, 02:12:42
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I can understand the desire for karma to exist. It means we can shrug off injustice and leave it to the universe to resolve. But I have seen people do pretty nasty things and get away with it scot-free, and some are dead and will never face the justice I'd have liked to have happened. (The only way you can use karma to sooth that sore is to invoke a belief in life after death, justice beyond the grave.) I've also  seen innocent people harmed and the only use karma can have in explaining that is either the person harmed did something wrong in a past life or the harm is actually beneficial as in they'll learn from it.

I don't buy any of it. Life isn't fair and you can't make it fair by demanding it be so or by wishful thinking.

Rawat is a charlatan, and he may well get away with all his crimes.






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Re: Karma!
Re: Karma! -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
karenl ®

12/19/2017, 14:16:32
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   With a face like this, somehow I think the worms of his karma are already eating him from the inside. 









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Great read. Thanks (nt)
Re: Oh how the famous are falling! -- old timer Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
OTS ®

12/19/2017, 04:11:39
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Good essay and assessment... Hear Hear!
Re: Oh how the famous are falling! -- old timer Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Tarvuist ®

12/19/2017, 15:32:17
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Balanced, thoughtful ... right good to see you survive proceed evolved with level head and your comprehensive overview succinct and eloquent.  Thanks for writing that and encouraging others to come, read, and think it through.






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thanks for the interesting post, old timer.
Re: Oh how the famous are falling! -- old timer Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/21/2017, 17:45:15
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I'm not sure how I feel about the spate of people being brought to face the media over bad personal behaviour.

sometimes I think of the whistle blowers, oh good for them, that's brave, and other times I just come back to the eerie feeling that this is like opening a giant can of worms, it's not just famous people being abusive is it.  It's too big!  denial will have to kick in.

For some of us as we mature we are faced with the need to retain truth and memory, to be able to think logically.  We need to accept the truth embedded in our feelings.  We need to have a history.

The truth seekers.  Can't help it - it's the way we're built.  And I guess there were quite a lot of us in the cult and we're all just as nice as ever, I met up with an old friend the other week, she is still a premie it's like a balancing act over a blank space, she is still such a lovely person, I hope she finds her way out.  I am glad to be back on the ground.

even if it is pretty horrible.  

happy christmas everyone. 






Modified by lesley at Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 17:46:21

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What made us join the cult?
Re: Oh how the famous are falling! -- old timer Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Steve ®

12/24/2017, 14:52:40
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According to the article linked below there are "predisposing factors that may facilitate attraction to a cultic system." Which one attracted you? For me it was #5.
  1. A desire to belong
  2. Unassertiveness (the inability to say no or express criticism or doubt)
  3. Gullibility (impaired capacity to question critically what one is told, observes, thinks, and so forth)
  4. Low tolerance for ambiguity (need for absolute answers, impatience to obtain answers)
  5. Cultural disillusionment (alienation, dissatisfaction with the status quo)
  6. Idealism
  7. Susceptibility to trance-like states (in some cases, perhaps, due to prior hallucinogenic drug experiences)
  8. A lack of self-confidence
  9. A desire for spiritual meaning
  10. Ignorance of how groups can manipulate individuals.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/265-who-joins-cults-and-why







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Re: What made us join the cult?
Re: What made us join the cult? -- Steve Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

12/24/2017, 16:51:56
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  1. A desire to belong
  2. Unassertiveness (the inability to say no or express criticism or doubt)
  3. Gullibility (impaired capacity to question critically what one is told, observes, thinks, and so forth)
  4. Low tolerance for ambiguity (need for absolute answers, impatience to obtain answers)
  5. Cultural disillusionment (alienation, dissatisfaction with the status quo)
  6. Idealism
  7. Susceptibility to trance-like states (in some cases, perhaps, due to prior hallucinogenic drug experiences)
  8. A lack of self-confidence
  9. A desire for spiritual meaning
  10. Ignorance of how groups can manipulate individuals.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/265-

1, 4, 6, maybe 7, 8, 9 and a whopping yes 10.

Touch of 3 ( I was 13) 

Wish it was 5 but that’s actually more noble than I was.






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Yeah, I got some of those list items in me. (NT)
Re: Re: What made us join the cult? -- Susan Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
eDrek ®

12/26/2017, 10:00:09
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Re: What made us join the cult?
Re: What made us join the cult? -- Steve Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
roark ®

12/26/2017, 11:21:29
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Hey Steve,

I'd say I am pretty guilty of all those factors across the board.  I suppose it is always a question of degree though.

These factors seem to pretty-much describe the human condition at-large, with the possible exception of 'susceptibility to trace-like states'.

I think you may be able to expand its coverage to all religions, political parties, tribe and club memberships of all types (especially Mets' fans)?

I'm currently reading an interesting, recently written book named "Sapiens" by Yuval Noah Harari that takes a brief and insightful walk through the history of humankind, and includes descriptions of how our species has wreaked havoc over others (species), not to mention the natural world.

The author dwells on how a key differentiator for Sapiens has to do with our ability to believe in myths, and then cooperate based on these shared beliefs.

I get a kick of how narrowly the word 'cult' is used for off-brand varieties such as our own, while there are soooo many other cults that fly under the radar due to their well-established popularity (like, say a religion that believes one is 'saved' by the blood of a 'son' of a 'god', etc, which I find to be actually even weirder that anything we experienced).

Anyway, big hug to you, O fellow Irish Yogaman in this auspicious holiday season







Modified by roark at Tue, Dec 26, 2017, 11:23:26

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You too roark! There are Irish Yogamen all over the world.
Re: Re: What made us join the cult? -- roark Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Steve ®

01/04/2018, 09:38:49
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Euro 2016: Irish football fans awarded Medal of City of Paris:


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36661166


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaZF5obwwNM&feature=youtu.be


Meanwhile the British and Russian fans were going all MMA on each other.







Modified by Steve at Thu, Jan 04, 2018, 09:44:19

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Re: You too roark! There are Irish Yogamen all over the world.
Re: You too roark! There are Irish Yogamen all over the world. -- Steve Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Steve ®

01/05/2018, 09:49:58
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Happy holidays and thanks
Re: Oh how the famous are falling! -- old timer Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
old timer ®

12/25/2017, 18:36:09
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Some thoughts on Christmas Day, 2017.

There were times when I spent Christmas in the Ashram as that was the place where devotees practiced satang, service, and meditation and there was always the hope that Maharaji would bless us with his Darshan either physically or by telephone links. A special chair was always ready for him to grace us with his physical presence. Fresh flowers were beautifully prepared and cut and an Arti tray was always ready for when we sang this devotional song at his feet or in front of his picture. A large picture of him was usually positioned on his chair while a picture of his feet was put on a cushion in front of his armchair. Devotion to the living Perfect Master.  I believe this still happens in India today when he attends events.

I became involved and drawn to this path because it was all to do with timing; the stars were aligned, prophecies were being fulfilled and the Supreme Lord of the Universe had manifested in human form in India. The Word was made flesh. The Second Coming, in which God himself would bring a thousand years of Peace to those lucky enough to be one of his followers. I was one of them! The German Reich had had a different destructive vision  that my parents generation had fought against. This now, was the path of peace and inner freedom. The lord was here. I was soo wrong! 

In hindsight, I was very gullible for sure and absolutely not prepared for the Indian cult world I was entering in the early 70s. I was driven by a search for the Truth and everything seemed to point towards Maharaji and his mission to bring light, love and truth to humanity.  I didn`t follow friends or relatives' advice and did my utmost to tell them that now was the time to follow the living master. To eat one had to eat food not a menu! The living master gave divine food!!

Looking back now, that period of my life seems so fantastical and later it was fuelled and driven by years of indoctrination and spiritual idealism. The Vietnam war was still being fought and the dream of being a person who helped bring lasting peace to the world one person at a time was not a bad ideal!

I was soooo wrong in believing that what he offered was the way to accomplish this mission. His meditation is helpful but not unique and there were conditions!! Wars are just as bad today as then, in fact they could be far worse with nuclear weapons and biological warfare. The theatre of engagement has changed but the destruction is unbelievable and we are growing immune to it: Homs, Aleppo and Raqqa remind me of the bombing and destruction of cities like London, Dresden, Warsaw Nanjing, Hiroshima, Stalingrad and Berlin etc. during the Second World War. Later it was Korea, Vietnam and Laos etc. As a human race we certainly don't seem to learn about the ugliness of war and now North Korea and the US are on the verge of an even more destructive confrontation.

So external and inner peace is still a distant reality for so many and I do regret wasting years with the guru. I did learn new skill sets, made some great friends, travelled the world and for sure now have a better understanding of cult mentality.

Today, I can honestly say I have no idea what lies beyond death as regards my belief system but I am still curious to know more and remain open. In the past, I was indoctrinated to believe that it was essential for a devotee to remember his master at his last breath. We were told by Rawat, not to fall at the last fence, that his close devotees would  shatter into a thousand pieces if they left him. Fear mongering mixed with spiritual carrots were always just out of reach. One could be in Rawat`s most trusted positions and then be demoted if it was his wish. Of course this happens in all walks of life but here it was a gift to receive his agya or direction; only good could come of it but disobeying might lead to rejection and a lack of grace in one's life. He could however forgive all and welcome you back if he so wished! In fact he did this to a number of people in key positions who fell short of his expectations or left and then wanted to return. It was a fine line. Is it now? I don't know. The criteria for receiving his gift has also changed many times over the years. The requirements are very different now and those who still follow have moved on and interestingly many have forgotten that in 1978 and 1979 at the Hans Jayanto festivals in Orlando, Maharaji was the Living Perfect Master or Sat Guru. There are still many pictures and audio tapes and there people alive today who were there and can validate this to be true. He does not present this image in the West today, at least not in public. The Ex Premie website has lots on info on this!

So on Christmas day 2017, I am not in an Ashram waiting for or sharing spiritual discourse (Satsang) but relaxing at home. This is my expression of truth as I understand it.! I'm lucky to be living in a country where there is religious freedom. I'm also not in an Ashram and  If I want to eat turkey and an egg for breakfast I can!! Actually, I ate porridge and toast and for dinner a vegetarian soup, salad and fruit cake and a tot of whisky! So life goes on and I feel so much les restricted than I did back in those years. We did have a great time and devotion fuelled our tanks. It was however a cage and this bird has learnt to fly again!

I hope everyone here is enjoying a wonderful holiday season too and thank you for reading and perhaps adding your thoughts to this thread. Wishing you all a brilliant 2018 

Cheers Old Timer.

 

  







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Re: Happy holidays and thanks
Re: Happy holidays and thanks -- old timer Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
OTS ®

12/26/2017, 15:33:55
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Sir, you just said it all. So Bole Shri, We’re FREE, Old Timer.  Yes at the height of my energy on earth, my 28th and 29th years alive, I and my friends  created  from scratch on farmland the two Hans Jyanyi Festivals in Florida. We gave all our energies. And pulled it off from scratch living in tents dirty for six weeks TWICE!!  Thanks for your contribution of your great analysis 






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