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Hi Quin,
Welcome to the Forum! I hope you enjoy your time here! <3
Karen Kirschbaum
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Hi Q,
Welcome. I was in the cult from '73 to '96. Drifted for a couple years wondering if I was just a victim of Mr Mind. Found this forum and EPO in '98 after I decided to check out what the internet was all about.
When I first discovered this place, I really freaked out. Read a little and then didn't come back for months. "This couldn't possibly be true" but eventually realized that it all fit in w/the secrecy of the cult I had wondered about. Why did big honcho types disappear as if they never existed? Why did it take years for us to figure out the Holy Family split, etc......anyway welcome...good people here
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Hi Q,
Welcome. I was in the cult from '73 to '96. Drifted for a couple years wondering if I was just a victim of Mr Mind. Found this forum and EPO in '98 after I decided to check out what the internet was all about.
When I first discovered this place, I really freaked out. Read a little and then didn't come back for months. "This couldn't possibly be true" but eventually realized that it all fit in w/the secrecy of the cult I had wondered about. Why did big honcho types disappear as if they never existed? Why did it take years for us to figure out the Holy Family split, etc......anyway welcome...good people here
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Thanks for the welcome. I'm enjoying this site very much so far. I've read many current posts and many old posts as well. So good to connect with people who share my history.
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.....hi......don't be shy......you don't lose anything......wolfie
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Hi Quinn,looking forward to hear from you
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me too, and love you Inis!
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Modified by Inis at Sat, Jun 24, 2017, 22:05:37
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Hello Quinn,
Welcome! Great place. Friendly and very therapeutic. Cannot tell you how much it did help me to lay out some events I kept to myself for...over 20 years!
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Oh, now it works. My first post left out the message.
I currently live in small community of devotees so I'm trying to navigate life with one foot in and the other foot out. Heard about GMJ in 1975 or so. A far flung relative told me about receiving K and raved about it. I started attending nightly satsang in 1977 and finally, after asking for 2 years, received K in 1979. I always asked a lot of questions when initiators came to town and they always said "not ready". I was 30 when I moved to a town that had an ashram and was recovering from a bad experience with a "EST-like" group. So after two years of asking, I received K in late 1979. I left M, stopped meditating and moved away in 1987. So fast forward to the present.....I'm back in that original town, living among several old premies that will be with M until they die (probably). I'm having a harder and harder time being around them. I have to keep cleaning out my head (if you know what I mean).
Well, I have much more to share, but need to get my day started. Thanks for reading this!
Quinn
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That's hard when you can't escape the premies.
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welcome Quinn. nice folks here, I'm in Canada, how about you?
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I'm from Michigan. Thanks for the welcome. I love Canada.
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Hi, welcome to the forum,
I'm having a harder and harder time being around them. I have to keep cleaning out my head (if you know what I mean).
Why is it necessary for you to be around premies? Do you have any choices you can make so you're not hanging out with them?
Be well,
Cynthia
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Hi Quinn, you're in the right place to clean out your head...The more you write and discuss with your conscious mind the unwritten, unconscious stuff of the cult, the clearer you will get. Clarity is one of those things m went on about, he pretended to offer. The contrast is notable. I am clearer now than I ever was in the cult. Cognitive dissonance is not a great place to come at decisions with.
If you don't enjoy the company of certain premies then that is your self, your inner being giving you some guidance about what feels best going forward, don't you think? those steps toward You are liberating and empowering Now that you're not a premie you get to exercise your free will and have a say in how your life goes! It's enjoyable making new friends too and for me has been essential to hang out here and air the things that help loosen the grip of years of brainwash
I'm interested to hear more about your life. perhaps you just don't know what to say to these individuals? It helps to script something sometimes that you feel comfortable with that can turn the conversation away from it, if you need to have other dealings with them.
Meanwhile it is hard to not come blurting out with the first 5 things that you find ridiculous about the whole trip! Most of us have witnessed a drip by drip process and that seems to be the best way of getting through any truthful information
Personally I am embracing my own freedom first. Most, if not all of the premies I've let know I'm out, have backed away themselves, no need for much of a retreat on my part. For them I have just sort of dissappeared I can only hope the conversation that led to that sticks with them a bit. Or that they read here
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It's isn't necessary for to be around premies. I do have a choice, but previously tried to be "polite" and would agree to see the local premies here and there. I decided in the last few days that I don't want to see them anymore. My SO is a "K dabbler" and watches videos of M from time to time. He doesn't play them on the TV fortunately. Watches them on his laptop.
I really wish I had been properly deprogrammed from the cult when I left. Now my main question is: I want to know exactly how I was programmed. I suspect that after two years of satsang, I was given many suggestions as to how I would experience K when it was given. I wonder how much I still believe that M is the Perfect Master. This stuff goes deep.
Anyway.....if you have anything to share on the subject, I would appreciate it.
Thanks.
Modified by Quinn at Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 20:38:14
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Hi Quinn,
Jasper sent me links to his old posts from years 2009 on. He goes there into clear insights and explanations about the programming.
I will try to paste those links in my next post. I highly recommend reading his posts. They are " enlightening " and excellent read.
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http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/premies/jasper/jasper.html
Here it is goes.
I agree with you Quinn that it is important to understand as much as possible how this all happened, and the techniques employed by Rawat.
I am also reflecting these days on what in me made me receptive to this.
Hope you enjoy reading his posts as much as I did. For me it was woah!
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I wonder if people from unhappy homes are more attracted to a master who will be a father figure for them. I think that's true for me to some extent. There was the illusion that I would be loved and protected. After being out for a few years, people would ask how could I have fallen for the cult and I said that in many ways, it was a step up. (Until it wasn't)
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i am sorry you grew up in an unhappy home Quinn. I know for a fact that it makes things difficult not only while it is happening, but impacts the thereafter as well.
You are making a link between the search for a father figure and joining the cult. So it is true for you, and it may be as well for some others. Cannot be generalized I think.
I also have made links out of some aspects of the cult: ...the secrecy. Not being able to tell others. ...the deceipt. Yet again I dont think those " links" can be generalized as true for everyone.
...another was a general aversion for "adults". My feeling being that this cult served this dislike. For me at least. In it we were not able to grow, and remained stuck in some type of Peter Pan syndrome. And that maybe, IMO, is something we shared more generally. Not that everyone in it hated "adults" or the image of them, but yes stopped growing and remained in some stage of deluded infancy. At least at some level.
Just my opinion ok 
Modified by Inis at Sun, Jul 02, 2017, 00:17:03
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Thanks for your thoughtful post, Inis.
Yes, the secrecy and deceit.....that was a problem. For 6 or 7 years, I really felt that I couldn't speak freely about what I was into. I invited several people to satsang, but only 2 or 3 went on to receive K. They never returned to satsang and just quickly faded away. In retrospect, I feel very relieved about that.
The dislike of adults never happened for me, but the inability to grow certainly did. Once I was out, I started studying all kind of things.
I remember one initiator telling a newly divorced mother that she shouldn't be going to college. She said, "I need some skills so I can support my two kids". Always admired her for that.
I suffered a fair amount of neglect/physical abuse in my childhood and young adult years. It created a general mistrust of people which worked in my favor regarding PR and K. Fortunately, I had a pretty good BS meter that kicked in when the "purging of the past" began. It reminded me of flushing drugs down the toilet before the cops showed up. That was the beginning of the end for me.
Quinn
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I think what we're looking at is that if you didn't have a caring father then quite simply you don't know the difference.
I didn't know what it feels like to be treated well so when Rawat presented as the good father, not that I thought about it but my attitude was to believe him, and I didn't have the experience to say hang on a minute, this doesn't feel right. In fact his godlike distance felt normal.
In the early days, before Rawat could break us up, it was the warmth of the premies that drew us in.
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My father died when I was in grade school. Mom drank. No siblings. I was a little, scrawny kid who got beat up a lot. A pretty unhappy childhood that led to an unhappy adulthood. Then in 1977, this chubby guy from India said to give him the reins of my life and he will give me peace and, well, that sounded like a good deal at that time of my life. The "God-like distance" left a lot of room for me to make up my own fantasy about PR.
I don't remember the premies being particularly warm, but they did their best to take care of the aspirants.
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yeah, you were a little later I guess. It got colder and colder as Rawat exerted his views over our much nicer idealistic ones.
I've always thought it good to respect people's privacy and it seemed very reasonable to accord Rawat his but I was also literally aware of the fact that i wanted to keep a distance between me and Rawat. I couldn't bear the thought of 'Maharaji' being angry with me and I think unconsciously I sensed the reality of him, anyway I didn't want to be close to him and it wasn't til I was in my 40's when I started doing service at Amaroo that things started to unravel.
I was lucky enough to have a good mom. So a lot of happy memories from my childhood as well as the rest.
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Thanks for your post, Lesley.
Yes, things did get colder as PR initiated his changes. Looking back, I always enjoyed premie satsang over PR's. When that was gone, it felt like the rug had been yanked out from under me. That turned out to be a good thing because I turned my attention to things that were important to me. Within a few years, I moved to Tucson, Arizona and started over.
Quinn
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These were good reading, thanks!
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Hi Quinn,
I really wish I had been properly deprogrammed from the cult when I left. Now my main question is: I want to know exactly how I was programmed. I suspect that after two years of satsang, I was given many suggestions as to how I would experience K when it was given. I wonder how much I still believe that M is the Perfect Master. This stuff goes deep.
There's no such thing as being deprogrammed. In the 70s there were people like Ted Patrick who kidnapped cult members and put them through intensive "deprogramming" sessions, but those were illegal and Patrick served time in prison for kidnapping.
There are reputable people who are cult exit counselors, however, they are probably pricey. Those counselors, like Steve Hassan, only work with people who are willing to hire them for help, unlike the illegal deprogramers like Ted Patrick.
The best way to deconstruct one's involvement in a personality cult is to education oneself about how cults work. There are excellent websites that offer articles by cult experts who explain how cults work.
Steve Hassan is one such expert and his website is here:
https://freedomofmind.com/
International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) is a website that has a wealth of articles and information for former cult members. Here is one article by Michael Langone, for whom I have lots of respect. This article is included in the section "Cults 101," and titled "Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups," by Michael Langone.
http://www.icsahome.com/articles/characteristics
Finally, "Refocus.org" is another excellent resource for articles about the subject. Read anything by Margaret Thaler Singer, including her books.
http://www.refocus.org/articles.htm
Please take your time because recovering from cult involvement doesn't happen overnight. You mentioned that it took you quite some time to be allowed to receive knowledge. That was most likely because you did ask too many questions, and accepting Rawat as "the lord of the universe" was a requirement for getting k back in the 70s.
It takes time to deconstruct the belief systems of Prem Rawat, that essentially took our freedom of mind and thought away from us. Try to be patient with yourself. Also, reading anything helps to condition our minds to think and reason in ways we were not allowed to do in the cult because Rawat demonized our minds as something we should banish and kill.
Please take good care of yourself. If you are still meditating, you may want to -- or not, it's your choice -- stop meditating at least for a while, because Rawat's brand of meditation is a mind-stopping style of meditation. That may help you regain your bearings, too.
And keep posting here if you wish. So many people have found it helpful to talk to other former premies. For me, the forum has been invaluable and the folks here are so kind and good.
Be well, and all the best...
Cynthia Gracie
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 07:29:51
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I found Hassan's book Combatting Cult Mind Control helpful, particularly the part about phobia induction. All cults do it.
https://freedomofmind.com/combating-cult-mind-control/
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Hi Quinn, I have given this subject alot of thought in the past few years. How did we become so programmed ? I even underwent a six week kidnap and deprogramming event in 1979...it didn't work.
I have also spent alot of time in therapy over the past 30 years with some very bright and kind therapists, ranging form Freudian Analysis to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to Reichian Breathwork, EMDR, Neuro Feedback and many others.
One phenomenon that comes up in most forms of psychoanalysis is the concept of Transference. See definition below.
I am not psychologist so bear with me here. But I believe we transfer primal (parental) authority over to a Guru or similar figurehead because we are in need of a new and improved care giver and parental figure. This may be triggered by a youth spent in an abusive household. In fact I would wager that a large percentage of cult victims come from a history of child abuse.
But despite our best efforts to discover the roots of our seemingly irrational behavior, we do it unconsciously and involuntarily. It happens when we aren't looking. In my experience we transfer or "project" onto people every day in one form or another like with political or military leaders, or other intensive relationships of all kinds. In the case of a cult leader, there are countless directional gates that funnel us deeper and deeper into a warped co-dependence. He is AS addicted to our adoration as we are to his all-knowing compassionate direction.
For me it happened subtly and insidiously, almost as if in my sleeping hours. Then one day I remember vividly (after about two years in an ashram), that I felt intense pressure to conform and to not question anymore, and to surrender compulsively (sacrifice my integrity).
This became a very long drawn out downward spiral of increasing effort and intensified dedication. We became an army of sycophants, each trying to out-do the other, the competition boundless. All to please an imaginary-flawless-image of a spiritual leader. Someone who had MORE authority than our imperfect parents held over us...
Unbelievable yes, but the good news is that we are in a position to free ourselves now and slowly return to a more normal, loving and creative lifestyle. I hope your journey proves fruitful.
Just my two cents...and oh yeah Jai Satch
Transference is a phenomenon characterized by unconscious redirection of feelings from one person to another. One definition of transference is "the inappropriate repetition in the present of a relationship that was important in a person's childhood".
Modified by Manincar at Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 12:11:55
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Hi Quinn, when I started posting here someone simply said "Welcome to Manmut Row". The reference was obvious. see pasted info below.
ManmutA Manmut (manmath, manmat) is Rawat's Hindi word for an apostate, someone who was once a devotee or at least "received Knowledge" ie was initiated and has realised that Rawat was an ignorant child who was proclaimed to be God incarnate but is no Master and his "Knowledge" is a simplistic set of meditation techniques. He declared some of the most prominent followers of his father manmaths in a letter to his administrators after they rejected him as Satguru. These included his mother, his elder brothers, the administrators of Divya Sandesh Parishad (Divine light Mission in India) that were appointed by his father including Ram Babu and Professor C.L. Tandon and Mahatma Satyanand his father's senior mahatma. So glad to leave all that drama in the past now. I think you will find this forum to be alive and well. Honestly we have better satsang here than at one of his snooze-fests. With regards to my few remaining premie contacts, the gap is growing bigger and my tolerance has dwindled. Sometimes it's just best to let them go. I have new friends anyway, and they are alot more interesting. But I was in shock too, many years ago when a very close premie-friend announced that he had jumped ship. After several years we are close once again now. Funny how people cling to old ways though. I think it's basically fear of the unknown...all that Knowledge and no Freedom ?..Bum deal if you ask me. Enjoy your time here, keen observations, wonderful stories and powerful insights. Great posts above from Karenl "power and brain damage" and SuzyQ, spot on as always. Time for an evening stroll down by the river...cheers !
Modified by Manincar at Sun, Jun 25, 2017, 20:09:29
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I didn't know that there was a Hindi word for me. I don't accept the label. I prefer to say that I woke up and moved on.
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well put Mannincar
He did portray 'this world' as a prison and the only freedom was meant to be within his prescribed techniques, along with the listening devotedly and without question to him alone and to serving his needs even to our detriment.
The wonderful and surprising realisation each time I deconstruct the brainwash bit by bit of every picture he painted of 'truth'- turns out to be the exact opposite of what he was trying to portray so hard
It is most surprising and at the same time the most liberating process
It's good you asked questions so much Quinn, in the beginning and obviously since. The brainwash was really trying to prevent us from doing that, not to exercise critical thinking. Not backing yourself in what your true feeling is but moulding yourself to conform to an identity as a 'premie', only what fitted in the mould was allowed into the conscious awareness.
Happily the vast ocean of unconscious and intuition holds it all and all those idiosyncrasies start to surface and you get to unpack the past with a new and true perspective. I can now spot the deception, his part in it and my own self deception, my own tendency to give my power away, etc
It's really healthy and even if hard at times, a really happy making process . I feel very grateful for the ability to be among you all while it all unfolds to each of our benefit
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Good post, SuzyQ! Yes, I think my questioning of everything saved me from getting sucked in too deeply. After the ashrams closed and the ashram premies moved away, there wasn't anyone left to hammer out the party line.
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Hi Manicar,
This is most interesting. I did not know this word neither about that letter he wrote to his administrators to "excommunicate" such important figures of his upbringing entourage... Do you know when he wrote this one? I am wondering who gave him the necessary support to do this and carry on to move to the west. The money even?
On my first journey to India, in 1979/80 or maybe 78/79, I heard Rawat had a bad reputation. I did ask about him to the guys who were meditating with Goenka, who at the time was leading the retreats himself with wife.
Reason I did being that prior to this trip to India, I had met a premie who was really into it. He had taken me to a satsang evening in Southern France. I did not even sit thru the whole thing. Thought it was demented discourse. But I did like this friend. In fact I had met a small group of premies. They were nice guys. I had left my job and life in Paris and was on my way to discover more about life and the world.
To make long story short, in India when I asked " have you heard about Maharaji? " those Goenka followers/meditators went into a rant. According to them he was really bad because ..he was fighting so bitterly with his family ...he was in USA ...he married an American ...he was eating meat
I have to admit I was not impressed by their arguments. I was not interested either in this maharaji but curious. Because of this friend who was mellow. I certainly did not have any prospect of joining. As a matter of fact, at that time, I was very much repelled by the idea of joining anything anybody. Even though I had the most incredible " experience " during and after a meditation retreat with Goenka, I refused to go to another, like his followers were doing. Because at the time I viewed as total nonsense the necessity to follow a guru to carry on with a blissful experience ( and yes that would have been my main motivation. I did like meditation with Goenka and " left my body" at the issue of the retreat and really digged that plus recovered a very heightened sense of bliss like one has sometimes as a kid. I was not into drugs..So that was really nice to get there! Well you know what they say in yoga, one should not seek these states for the sake of it )
Well fate got me at some next bend of the road! And with a guru who definitively was not on my preferred list of choices!
Modified by Inis at Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 23:23:48
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So you got the specialK initiation around 1980 in India. Is that right? How did that come about & how then did you end up ironing his shirts in Malibu?
I'm intrigued. 
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Hi PatD,
No I did not receive K in India during my first journey there. 1979
I mentioned in previous post asking about M at the issue of a meditation retreat I went to, led by Goenka. Asked some meditators there. Their feedback about M was very negative. I did not push the issue any further. I had no real interest in M. It was mere curiosity.
During that stay in India, someone mentioned Krishnamurti and I went straight to see him in different places in Southern India.
But M, no I had no interest. And I did not meet any premie there during that time.
I went to India alone, after short encounter in France with 2 guys who were just back. I knew nothing about India, had no particular agenda for going there either. Just irresistible sudden pull. Did not have even a map. Just kept heading east with local buses till I got there. Asking my way as I went.
Now after 6 months traveling in India on my own, coming back to Europe turned out quite trying. I loved India and my time there. Cried a lot on departure. Being back did not gel too well.
I just did not want, could not get back to " regular " life. I went back to my job, which was a good one, at which I used to be very good. Could not stand it anymore, the people there, their concerns, lifestyles. Left immediately. Traveled a bit. Was living on an edge. Carrying a photo of Krishnamurti in my pocket, I aimed at developing more awareness, hoping for a major break thru, something! Saw Krishnamurti again in German Switzerland.
Eventually I returned to Paris. Trimmed down my life to bare nothing. A semi conscious strategy of rejection which I hoped, would bring forth the emergence of something more real.
Then lo and behold, that premie friend from before India showed up un-announced at my door. No mobile no phone no wifi back then. We had not kept in contact. He said " am going to the U.S. to see maharaji. Are you coming? " I asked for time to think about it " It is a yes or a no " he prompted, " am leaving in 3 days. You have to get your visa tomorrow if you are coming" Next day I went to get it. Visa was necessary then and delivered on the spot. I left my best belongings with a friend down the street. Never recovered them.
I never wanted to go the US at that time. Was attracted to the old world..India and the like. I never wanted to go see M.
Yet...next we were in NY which I fell in love with right away. Then in Philadelphia for an event. I disliked M intensely. He looked like a greasy car salesman to me. Trying to sell love.
Yet...next day I was in the darshan line, and already gave away in an envelope the diamond ring I was wearing ( small diamond ok, but still )
Next thing we were in Miami for another event. Then in Caracas. From where I came back to Miami Beach. To ask for K. and received it fast. 1981. Never went back to France till many years later. And that was for an event.
When M and family moved to Malibu, 1984 I think, we ( I had married a premie by then and had my first child ) moved there too. At some point, someone called me from the rez and asked if I' d be willing to come to the laundry room regularly several times a week. That is how I ended up ironing Rawat' s shirts.
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thank you for your story Inis. It was interesting and evocative of those times - that get up and go, that feeling of living your own life - and how easy it was to get derailed.
and here we are all these years later and maybe the best thing about exiting is remembering yourself from beforehand and connecting the dots to now.
wishing you all the best.
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Hi Quinn,
You left this cult quite a while back. You say 1987....and that being around premies is increasingly difficult. I can imagine!
Do you have some logistic reason to be back in this community? A job, family, or a house/apartment? From your post it is not clear why you would subject yourself to this situation? Unless you are bound to.
In any case, welcome here
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Thanks for the welcome, Inis. My mother is in a care facility here in eastern Michigan so I needed to return. I'm finding that much has changed since I was here last.I don't really run into premies very often, almost never. I'm reading posts for a couple of hours each day and feeling more clear and peaceful. Quinn
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Thank you for your answer Quinn.About a month or two ago I read here a lot too. And it did clear up quite a bit. A lot actually. I am much clearer about the fact that Rawat is a really sick man running a scam.
It is important indeed to process all this. Even if the cult ran by Rawat is a minor one as some say, still we for many of us here, have spent a great chunk of our lives in it. That is not minor!
I have been involved in lots of traveling lately. As a result, slowed down my visits here. Am still around though hehe...just very busy.
So glad you are finding here the support you were looking for. Wishing you the best. Hope your mom is ok.
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Thanks for the follow up, Inis. I'm still reading a lot. The challenge seems to be remaining neutral. At first I was outraged and resentful, but who wants to allow that kind of negativity to continue to churn around? Now I'm just periodically shocked and left shaking my head. There was a guy a long time ago who described EPO as a "car wash" - a place where you could come and clean off the lies and deception. I think he directed his remarks at the active premies who would troll the website. I would agree, but it's more than that for me. I'm really benefitting from the level of recovery that is described and I'm encouraged by how most of you folks are getting on with your lives in very healthy ways. My mother is doing fine, thanks for asking, Inis. Warmest regards,
Quinn
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