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Hi everybody. Been reading here again for the past few weeks. Good to hear old friends, and to see more people coming out of the mire, or maya. I keep hoping to find that "it's all over". Apparently not yet. OK, so sounds like the premies I was jealous of for their proximity to the ji were not in fact having blissful darshan - were actually suffering intensely, often with self-doubt, self-flagellation and fear. I think those of us on the outside wanted to hear as much as possible about that inside world, get a glimpse of the glow. Really, not even a glimmer? Anything that was good we created and enabled. The power of suggestion, intention. But what about the love within? I came to knowledge because of my spiritual leanings. Like Listener, I was out for a few years and returned. The premie house in Boston was breaking up, my mom had terminal cancer, and I intended to continue my involvement back in NYC. 1977 and I went to satsang and events but there was little relief in knowledge for the grief I was experiencing, and the community was unfriendly. Yeah, his devotees were not recognized by their love of one another. Notwithstanding, I held on and continued practice; meditation was ok, got married, had a baby. This was the 1980's and I didn't hear that we were supposed to get rid of the worship-related media so I didn't. Anyway that was ridiculous as we all know without devotion, what could possibly be the point? Had to chase the darshan. Years later in Dunnellon and Clearwater FL I was happy to do intro programs at local libraries and had been a financial supporter for most of the time. I worked with a Jehovah Witness and they are very patient and feel it is their service to save you, so over the next several years I had bible study just for me! with 3 different people and I enjoyed learning and engaging in purposeful discussions. Such set the stage to go our ex-premie website. Sadly, no one praises God in my circle of influence. When the JW's really started pressuring me to join and I tuned in to the hearings on child abuse, and what the forbidden history of the witnesses is, what the ex's were saying, I also tried to tell them, and they weren't allowed to listen to me. Born into Judaica, studied Eastern religions before the ji, then Christianity afterwards. I don't agree that praying to God is necessarily switching one illusion for another. The jury is still out on that one. Despite all the hypocrisy, mindlessness, and evil in organized religions, cults, etc. - inspiration and appreciation can be felt within, where it has always been.
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once the penny dropped, it dropped for me. Well it took 3 weeks to reach the ground. I simply could not overlook the similarities of the story between Rawat and Jesus and now I had had an up close look at a living messiah.
But for three weeks, as I returned to the familiarity of the culture I grew up in, in doing so I returned to the comfort of being a Christian like everyone else around me.
And then one day I looked up, I had been thinking about the way people suffer and I thought you know what God, even if You do exist and can torture me for eternity, now while I'm alive and have a say in it, I need my integrity and I don't want to have anything to do with you.
It's 17 years out now for me. not just out of the cult but out of the belief in God. Really, I dropped it like a hot potato. It's the size of the idea I have a problem with - He's too big for me.
One of the things I have noticed, now I am an ex God-believer is that people who do believe in Him also believe that I cannot therefore be experiencing the feelings they experience through their love and faith in God. Well I do - all the stuff I experienced when I was a god-believer and then some I never did before. Tho I think that's just due to personal timing.
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well said lesley - very clear
i hope this site isnt turning into a drop m site and latch on to christianity - jesus - judaism and whatever else.
dont really want to read about anyones new found religion - or god - or master - just their journey with m and why they began to question and ultimately leave
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I overdosed on Rawat.At least that is the feeling now. My whole life revolved around Knowledge and R. And his family.
I wonder now how did I survive this and come out about whole? This sugar coated toxic BS. When I started writing my doubts, it was as the result of the contradictions I heard him speak. On one hand telling us we should live a balanced life and on the other making us do crazy stuff. Like traveling after him. I dont remember his exact words. But clearly there were huge contradictions. And I could see what state my life was in. A total wreckage. I really mean that. Integral wreckage!
Now considering I was a "good girl" following his directives, how did I end up in such a mess?!
I do believe the intensity of that wreckage propelled me to question.
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the questioning, the doubting, which he did forbid, was actually the beginning of coming to sanity.The mind, so decried by Rawat, but also by many other cults and religions, is not so bad after all...
At least in this situation, whatever was left and still functioning did the good job to get me out of there
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it is interesting to see that writing allowed for the expressions of these first doubts when they happened. I was not able to voice them. But the writing, journaling it was, did take me further than my more conscious me dared to.
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Yes Philareflection, I agree, this forum is most valuable as a way of deconstructing cult ideas and memories. as Inis says, sometimes writing is a more effective way of actually doing that. I too find that writing brings more to the surface from my subconscious than speaking. It's great to know that even with the many years of brain wash all it takes is a bit of honest reflection with a pen and paper, seeing the conflicting things he says. And the way he treats people... I believe the next thing he'll be sneering at is journaling...
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To be more precise though SuzyQ , the writing which did help me get away, when I did start the process, was already a shift.Up to then, at least during the years I was vampirized by R, whenever I wrote, I did adress him. So in effect it was not journaling but writing him letters. This morning I linked a very old memory to this kind of doing. At age 3 and 4, before I knew how to write, I did start writing letters to God. I was then raised by my grandmother. And even though I cannot remember this, I am pretty sure she must have given me a hint to do that... I actually did not know how to write, but thought I did. Was sure I did know! And got into the habit of writing a letter to God before going to bed. She assured me that if I left the missive on the dining room table, one of his angel mail guy would come pick it up and bring it to him. I did believe her. First thing I would do in the morning was running to the table to see if the mail angel had swung by. Every time of course the letter was gone. I was so so thrilled, and really got into it for a while.
Not to bother you with my childhood memories, but in this case the link is so obvious. So, especially in times of suffering, I would write to R. In my "journal". I did not send this.
Only when I broke away with this habit, did the writing help me get away. Of course.
It was automatic writing. And it was scary. I guess what picked up momentum then and showed up in my notebook, were thoughts and reflections I did not admit to consciously
In fact automatic writing which is my way of journaling when I do, can get scary. Because certain things we know, we also don't like to admit. My first doubts about R on paper scared me very much. It took a lot to accept what was coming out.
Modified by Inis at Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 10:35:48
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Hi Innis
I personally love reading childhood memories, and this one of yours is especially endearing so thanks for sharing.
I too have been amazed by what happens when we allow automatic writing to be...seems to be the best way to get it all out, the good the bad the ugly and the miraculous. I like to write letters too, been doing it my whole life, but writing for storytelling is new to me, forum writing too.
Anyway, I'm glad you're writing here now too, I've certainly appreciated your thoughts and wisdom! Long, strange trip.
G
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There is something so fundamentally brave about all the exer's on here. I am reminded of that fact when I read your post Inis As you say it took a lot to accept the truth of what was landing on the page courtesy of your deepest inner being. We were not encouraged to trust in that, to trust our true selves, but rather him and his ever changing agia which was in the end a list of shallow desires connected with more status, more power and more self indulgence at the expense of those who implicitly trusted him.
He set us up against ourselves , put him first, put knowledge first, all the while thinking this was a path to pure connection with the Self. Coddswallop. I don't know what the 3rd technique is called in Hindi, but he decided to call it Holy Name or Word, or both, for the westerners. He is the epitome of a wolf in sheep's clothing, preying on our associations.
He scoffed at any attempts to explain meditation techniques as a form of relaxation.Or himself as an 'inspirational speaker' I've since seen blurbs describing him as just that! obviously approved by him I don't know what his take on that question of meditation being essentially relaxation techniques is now. Complete turn arounds with no reference to his previous stance is really the norm, if only the premies would acknowledge that fact they might be closer to seeing the selfish prick for who he is.
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Thank you Leslie for Sharing your opinion and engaging in a conversation that is not always popular here and I paused before posting.
Reminded me of what it felt like telling people about knowledge who didn't want to hear it. I grew up in liberal New York City with minimal family expectations regarding religion. When I moved to Florida, the Bible belt, I was taken aback by the overwhelming Christianity and hypocrisy of many. It was an attitude of entitlement, and I could see why people would reject it who were brought up that way.
Remember when we used to give satsang and we just expressed from our hearts? Then somebody might hear something that was meant just for them. Healing takes place on this forum in that way too.
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yes, it was brave of you to post and brave of me to reply. but I liked your post, it had a lovely warm feel to it.
I was brought up in London by a non-religious Jewish father and a deeply religious but unconventional Christian mother. So no Florida bible belt to escape from for me tho I have seen what you are talking about. I haven't rejected Christianity in a cultural sense - it's what I grew up with and should it come to a religious war then that's my side. 
God is not always this benign super power tho. For a premie it's Rawat and I know what it's like to feel that I have displeased God. It took me into a realm of suffering I have no desire to revisit. I remember at one point I was hurting so badly, and feeling so infectious and guilty for it that I was thinking I should kill myself so I didn't inflict my suffering on everyone else. Then I thought of my mum and realised it would be even worse if I did that.
This is the ex-premie forum, where people come to recover after discovering they had joined a religious cult, and that is what 'the world of Knowledge' is despite it's 'this is not a religion this is what religions are based on' slogan. it's good to be able to discuss our beliefs openly - in the spirit of examining them. it's a fine line and difficult to negotiate. For you Jesus is a figure of reverence, but to me he was yet another self-entitled guru.
The very idea of one God for everyone has led to all sorts of deep-set difficulties, imo.
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How awful for you to have suffered so. Disgusting religious cults. Bastards. Nobody has the right to make us feel that way. By the way I Don't use the name Jesus and God interchangeably. That's actually the kind of assumption I was talking about.😙
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Thanks Sheree. with hindsight I was already living in adverse conditions so particularly vulnerable to the impact of displeasing the Lord. It was a really awful time.
I remember as a premie the generally accepted answer to the question of so what's the difference between God and Maharaji? (aka so to whom should I be directing my love and prayers?) was "I don't know but they do say that Guru is greater than God because He shows you God." 
It's just not meant to be that hard.
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The very idea of one God for everyone has led to all sorts of deep-set difficulties, imo.
Good observation. I'm starting to think that way myself, but I'm not quite there yet. I found a book the other day, chosen in a hurry in the short space between getting off a train & onto a bus, on the way to a Hospital appt, & bought to kill the time in the waiting room. Its thesis is that the modern world has become identical to that of the ancient world of Greece & Rome in all manner of ways. I never got beyond the introduction, the wait being mercifully short, so I haven't yet got to the god & godesses chapter.
Actually, I've thought for a while now that the most human manifestation of religion is ancestor worship, but I recognise that keeping your dear old grandma's bones under the bed doesn't really go with the C21st century lifestyle.
Of course it could just be entertaining bullshit.
As ever buyer beware.
link didn't work but the book is Full Circle by Ferdinand Mount.
Modified by PatD at Fri, Jun 02, 2017, 20:00:33
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for me it's a question of scale, Pat. It does not work, I'd rather be a chihuahua in love with a great dane.
I used to wonder why on earth there is this figure called Death, why a depiction like there really is someone in a black robe carrying a scythe knocking on doors. Then my mother died and for two weeks I was having a conversation about the nature of death with death, like I was talking to another person.
So now I knew why we have this depiction of death as a person and if he wanted to wear a black robe and carry a scythe it wouldn't worry me, not that I noticed, he was such a loving person, caring of me and trustworthy.
More real than real, or more real than the world around me. It wasn't long before I decided that I wasn't going to call him Death, death would do. To capitalise him, to make him responsible for everyone's death was to make a giant, a monster out of him when he was really my friend.
The closest I can get to picturing the whole thing is that there is this space in there. It is malleable and takes impressions. It is integral to the formation of our lives. It is sacred. And we protect it.
When I became a premie an advertising poster - a paper-thin picture of the Living Lard was pasted over that space. It simply peeled off with disuse after I exited.
No true or lasting impression left behind.
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