| Some of my story, which began in '72 and finally ended 2007 |
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I'll just come out and tell you straight up I am a believer in Yeshua (Jesus) now -- but not because I switched from one crutch to another. I was "following" no one at all for the some 13+ years after divorcing myself from M. (I find referring to his full name or title distasteful and too respectful considering how many people he has used and abused, so that is why I just say M.)
But were are not here to talk about Yeshua. We are here to talk about getting out of M idol-worship, what we experienced and thought and saw when we were there -- and how and when we got out, right?
I posted a little bit about this on my FB page today in a slightly different context so I'm just cutting and pasting a portion of what I shared there today with a bit more added since you all already understand who my "guru" was:
I got bushwhacked into a Knowledge session in July 1972. I was a lost soul who was desperately unhappy, from a family in which I had always been unwanted and so emotionally needy that killing myself and getting it over with sounded a lot more appealing than living.
For many years I gave M credit for saving my life. But the fact is, when I gave God the ultimatum that if He didn't help me within 2 weeks I was going to kill myself -- I already knew I would be receiving "Knowledge" in that amount of time. How deceptive our minds are! I am absolutely certain -- just as I am certain of how lost I was back then -- that if I hadn't already read a flyer that had me convinced he was literally the Messiah I would never have made that ultimatum. (And for the record, I do not recommend giving God ultimatums. He does not play by our rules; we play by His!)
Knowledge session. Mahatma Charanand squeezed my eyes and asked me what I saw during the technique initiation. I saw light and colored stars and the sun and the moon and a tree, all surrounded by white light. THIS IS IT, thought I. I had found the holy grail. I even heard real music with the listening technique (a music which by the way I NEVER heard again, even after many years of meditation). I believe Charanand had spiritual powers. Anyone that knows much about spiritual things knows that spiritual powers can be from God -- or from a deceitful source. Just because the powers are there does not make them good or "truth."
Nor does the light mean those powers are good. Even Lucifer (whose name was changed to Satan once he rebelled and became a proud deceiver) was known as full of light and the most perfect of God's creations. Yes. Even Satan can visit one as an Angel of Light. And today in fact there are multitudes who worship him -- who wants to be higher than God -- as if he WERE higher than God.
But enough of that. I know many if not most who read this are not (or not yet) believers in Yeshua. You must forgive me, because I can only be myself, and Yeshua is my passion. But let me get back to my story with the deceiver known as M (which in his mother tongue means king):
I was hooked. I know at the august age of 18 knew everything that was important to know.
I went to India for a long stay with thousands of other "premies" to be with Maharaji in November '72. My memory is good but growing vague. Were we there four weeks or six? One or the other. Six months later I moved into the Denver ashram.
When I moved into the ashram I had already been coming by daily after my work which was only a few blocks from the Kittredge Bldg. to do service, transcribing for And It Is Divine magazine. It was really dull stuff in the beginning -- listening to tapes of farmers being interviewed about their agriculture techniques is what I remember. It was stuff nobody else wanted to do, so when I moved into the ashram Sandy Meadows, the editor of the magazine, made sure I would be given the job of full-time transcriber.
Soon after I moved in Maharaji surprised us all and came to Denver and did a series of talks (that we called satsangs). I remember going to see him at Phipps Auditorium. His mother dressed all in white was on the stage. I was seated in the middle of the large crowd. M came on stage, dressed in whites, which seemed to glow super bright. His white clothes were so bright!
It hit me like a ton of bricks. "He's the antichrist!" I looked at his mother and thought, "How DARE you pretend your son is the new Jesus?!" "Oh no, what am I thinking?!" My head got really, really hot. I felt like my head was in a vice grip and on fire at the same time. I felt hot and it was hard to breathe. I had to get out of there!
And I did. I got out of there. It was a peaceful evening and I sat out on the steps outdoors of Phipps Auditorium, my head swimming. I did not know what to do, what to think. I had already moved into the ashram. I had no possessions beyond what I wore, no money for a taxi. "If I had money, I would call a taxi!" "But where would I go? I have no place to go!" "I don't care, but no use thinking about that since you don't have the money..."
I sat out there until the event was finished and the premies and others piled out of the building in droves. I had come in a big bus (a refurbished school bus the ashrams used), and I got back on it as people boarded. When I got back to my ashram I told another girl that lived there what I had been experiencing and thinking. "I don't know what to do!" I told her.
"Oh, that happened to me too," she said. "It went away after a while."
So, that was my genius plan: to "wait until it goes away." I got up the next morning to discover my face and entire body was covered in hives and I had terrible headaches to go with it for a couple of weeks. Until I just forgot my worries and went back to transcribe. Only now I had become the person who transcribed nearly all of M's talks, and I did that for the next 3 years.
I moved out of the ashram the day I realized that I was AFRAID to move out. At that point I had been there 3 years and I was nearly 22 years old. The world seemed a really scary place. I hadn't even paid attention to Watergate (which came down during the time I lived in the 'shram). As soon as I realized I was afraid to move out, I knew that I MUST move out -- and I had after all just finished transcribing the talk where M told us all (for the very first time) that the 'shram was more like a hospital where hopefully we would get well. I took it to mean we were NOT being held to the lifelong commitment we made when we moved in.
I moved out without much ado, especially since M had said that -- and me being the one that transcribed what he said, no one could argue and tell me I was just "hearing things." The legendary mass exodus from the ashrams a year or two later was yet to come I guess.
After moving out there came a point maybe a year later where I really didn't feel like meditating or listening to M at all anymore. I decided to just let it go. And for about 6 years I did just that.
I'm going to pause my long and complicated story here. What I have already told is so abbreviated, and even with abbreviations my story of getting involved with M -- AGAIN -- after becoming a Christian is also long and complicated and it would not be fair to my story to over-abbreviate it, so I'll just fast-forward to say that the second time around I was the "coordinator" for the video events, etc. of M in the town I live for 6 years before I came to the point of realizing M was not who he had always pretended to be.
In the beginning for me -- 1971, when I first heard of M -- I was given a flyer where he said, "I am the source of peace in this world, but what can I do unless people come to me with a sincere desire to know truth?" Over time, M changed his angle more than a few times. He who was once openly called "lord of the universe" morphed into "perfect master" which morphed into "master." I don't know what he calls himself now, but he really, really likes that "master" title.
The day came I knew he was just in it for himself. That is the day I left off serving him. It took a lot longer than that to speak of it.
Once one has invested heart and soul into someone like that
for a long while it is EXCRUCIATINGLY difficult to pull oneself out of
it. Not only do you feel spiritually humiliated and raped, but if you
have followed him/her long enough and given a LOT of yourself and your
income to said scamster, but so many of your friends -- and even family
-- STILL "believe" in that person and in a sense you lose them too.
I also gave thousands of hours of my time and thousands of dollars of
my money in what was altogether basically 9 years of devotion to a lie
before it was all over, though I lived borderline poverty existence. I
have never been a materialistic person, but what I gave materially in my
life adds up in so many years, and it was to promote a false belief
system and false teacher and for this reason I am very sorry for the service and money I gave him.
I am VERY thankful to know that "all things
work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called
according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28)! But you know what? I am
happier with a whole LOT of nothing -- including a life ending with no
real career, exceedingly few friends, and no savings -- than being
deceived any longer. It took me a long time -- a long, LONG time -- to
totally free myself of that man's influence on me. I was even afraid of
quitting meditating (using the techniques he taught "for free" for
years after I left him! I was afraid my whole spiritual being would turn
into rotten vegetables if I quit meditating. I stopped
meditating -- ever -- (although for the second time) -- in spring or
summer of 2007. Nothing bad happened to me. In fact, I got BETTER. The
next six years were a slow process of finding my way. And it took that long before I found Yeshua again.
It's ironic. M used to tell an old Hindu story about someone who is with their true master and then gets swept off in a stream that becomes a river and then marries and has children and this happens and that happens and they lose their spouse and their children and their house and then find themselves back where the master is there waiting for him/her.
Well, that is what happened for me. But that master that was always there for me and waited for me and forgave me was Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ), not M. Maybe that will explain to you just how long and complicated my story is!
Anyhow, I have been M-free for about 15 years now. I may have overstated time periods above and said 6 or 7 years when I should have said 4 or 5 years. Apologies for that. Sometimes it is hard to pinpoint the exact years on the calendar, but now that I think of it, it was definitely either late 2001 or early 2002 that I first realized he was a fake. It was another 5-6 years before I let go of meditating.
Well, shoot. I said this was going to be short but I guess I lied.
Thanks to the webmaster for making this space for people to communicate about all of this. Being programmed and used like that -- well, it's just a heavy thing for those of us that really got into it.
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ok - i read your story - and can relate to a lot of it - Im glad you told your story - but against the backdrop of jesus - is where you kind of lost me.
If jesus were in a body in the here and now - you might be reacting and telling a similar story.
its so much easier to believe in a nonliving person and religion.
not here to defend m - im just have a hard time with your story - because your saying you have dropped m and embraced jesus.
does anyone else think there is something off with this. Again i appreciate your telling of your story and feel humbled that you let me in on it
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..you really just have swapped imaginary friends...
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I agree, & that's been the consensus here for a great many years, but of course the forum is a blank slate to be written on, rather than a repository of accumulated wisdom. When I left the cult, suddenly & brutally after 28 yrs in, as a result of finding EPO on the net, I had to think about many things as a consequence. Not that I hadn't thought about them before, just that doing so with Rawat's ball & chain fastened around my ankle slowed progress to a crawl.
So now I'm an agnostic in religion, a sceptic in science, & a populist in politics. It's possible I will change my mind on the latter 2, but never on the 1st. We can't know, never will know, & never have known, what happens after death.
All the same, the religious instinct is part of the human condition. I retain an attachment to a Catholic superstition implanted in my childhood, impossible to explain or justify in rational terms, but I maintain it because of something that happened in my life at the age of 14.
I was on holiday in Portugal last month & went to Fatima. If you want to see what a Divine City looks like.... it's just like every other city. There wasn't anything there 100 yrs ago, but now there's this large town which seems to have been in place forever. There's a plaza in front of the church which reputedly can hold half a million people. The scale is vast, all built with donation money, Rawat eat your heart out, & the vibe is boringly normal yet totally tolerant. There were a few people knocking about who would certainly have been on the bongo list in Rawatworld, but they weren't given any hassle & prevented from taking part.
I didn't have an epiphany, but then I wasn't expecting one.
I shan't be going back, once was enough, just to see. 
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There must be 50 ways to leave the mugger.Glad the forum is a blank slate. I'm sure we have plenty to share and glean from one another. I doubt much can be had from expecting each one of you to have exactly the same experience as me, or visa versa. It is nice when, more often than not, something someone says helps me heal a bit more.
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I love that heal and take good care of yourself. Enjoy your kitty. They are super friends so - intuitive. Mine is really slowing down She bit a poisonous 🌱 and it affected her kidneys I think she's getting better I sure hope so I was weeping for days.
And could you please explain about the 50 Ways ?
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susie, that's really funny. Thanks for praying for us! Surround yourself with the things that you love , do things that you love. Speaking of imaginary friends my cat has been unwell and it was difficult to get her to take medicine or receiving fluids subcutaneously and to eat, because I couldn't make her do what was right for her to get better, I was frustrated as a caregiver all that crap, And I begin to imagine that this relationship I have with her it's all in my mind. And I'm not sure if she's getting better but we are very close and it's real. So you're not alone because you have a relationship with your cat. And your maker.
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There is such a thing called as searching.It is quite strong in some people. Guess there is a fine line there...between exercising this inclination, and falling back into already made certitudes and concepts. And eventually also grand scams.
Tough waters.
Before and after Rawat, I definitively searched. Practiced different meditations and practices, listened to teachings. My choice now is NOT to be part of any group. Or under directive of any spiritual or religious leader. That is my inclination. Freedom. In as much as we are free... We shall see..am willing to take a chance though. I do believe in a superior power though. And that aint just me deciding this or that.
Modified by Inis at Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 22:44:36
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Thank you for sharing your story Listener Michele. Long story with Rawat.I understand you are now very involved in another group. And I certainly would not attempt to dissuade you.
Yet I also want to answer to Philareflection. And express myself on the topic of joining ( religions, cuits, spiritual groups ), versus not.
When I did quit Rawat' s cult, dropping also the meditation which I had practiced assiduously at least 2 hours per day for 15 years, was not a small one. I feared maybe my mind would go bersek if I did.
I was going then thru very rough waters, emotionally and otherwise, but I did not go crazy. Suffering is part of living. Not a disqualifier.
I dont want right here to go into the details of the whole sequence as it happened then.
But rather share some conclusion. Human beings at large look for support and re-assurance. Living, with the prospect of aging and dying on top of it, is not an easy thing.
I am sejourning presently in the Himalayas, surrounded by a great number of Tibetan buddhists. Both Tibetans and foreigners.
The mind is decried in many religious spiritual appraoches. Not solely by the Bible or Rawat! Some of these Tibetan monks go to huge extents into their practice studying for over 20 years.
My point here is I am choosing to reject all this. To be on my own with...my life. Am sure some can call me a fool. But I dont want anyone telling me what I should do or think or feel.
By choice I just let it happen. Whatever. And am not saying am right..or wrong. I can say for sure that feelings of love and understanding and compassion and beautiful poetic states still manage to creep on me. Just like that. And discomfort and pain also. Everything.
I find it worth it to try that, in spite of the personal doubts and the fact that most everyone around are joiners, worth it to navigate my own little boat. I do believe in a superior power though. To which am plugged. So no worry. Thats how I see it.
Modified by Inis at Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 22:23:22
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Hey Inis
Where are you in the Himalayas?
M
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Thank you for sharing your story Listener Michele. Long story with Rawat.I understand you are now very involved in another group. And I certainly would not attempt to dissuade you. Yet I also want to answer to Philaraction. And express myself on the topic of joining ( religions, cuits, spiritual groups ), versus not.
When I did quit Rawat' s cult, dropping also the meditation which I has practiced assiduously at least 2 hours oer day for 15 days was not a small one. I feared maybe my mind would go bersek if I did. Well like that happened. I was going then thry very rough waters, emotionally and otherwise, but I did not go crazy. Suffering is part of living. Not a disqualifier.
I dont want right here to go into the details of the whole sequence as it happened then.
But rather share some conclusion I came to. Human beings a large look for support and re-assurance. Living, with the prospect of aging and dying, is not an easy thing.
I am sejourning presently in the Himalayas, surrounded by a great number of Tibetan buddhists. Both Tibetans and foreigners. The mind is decried in all many religious spiritual appraoches. Not solely by the Bible or Rawat! Some of these Tibetan monks go to huge extents into their practice studying for over 20 years.
My point here is I am choosing to reject all this. To be on my own with...my life. Am sure some can call me a fool. I dont want anyone telling me what I should do or think or feel. I just let it happen And am not saying am right..or wrong. I can say for sure that feelings of love and understanding and compassion and beautiful poetic states still manage to creep on me hahaha. Just like that. And discomfort and pain also hehehe. Everything.
So I will say for me anyway, I find it worth it to try that, in spite of the personal doubts and the fact that most everyone around are joiners, worth it to navigate my own little boat. I do believe in a superior power though. To which am plugged. So no worry. Thats how I see it.
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P.S. I listened to M for literally thousands of hours over many years. At the time I was not very versed in the Bible. I went to church just 8-9 mos. at the most at age 11 when I lived with my grandparents, but my parents did not want me to be religious and my bachelor dad was agnostic. I was allowed to believe anything I wanted to believe as far back as I can remember.
Now that I have been reading the Bible a lot for 3-4 years, I am astounded at how many things M used to say came directly from the Bible and which he just repeated in slightly different words (with himself as Yeshua). I also used to keep the archives of all of his father's transcribed talks that had been translated into English. His father used to do the same exact thing, but added a lot more Hindu scriptures into the mix than M did.
Another very interesting thing to me is that M used to always talk about the "mind" as a crazy thing we could not trust. Even this is a plagiarism from the Bible, because you see, in Hebrew where the Bible says HEART in the Hebrew culture it meant one's mind and thoughts. This is why the Bible says there is deception "in the heart." It is really talking about deceptive plans and schemes -- whether we are deceiving others or, as is commonly the case, deceiving ourselves. This is why the Bible says not to lean on your own understanding.
The Bible and God are faithful and true. God does not and indeed CANNOT lie. I am not going to try to tell you the Holy Bible is the inerrant word of God, because I know that there ARE translator mistakes to be found in it -- but the vast majority of the words HAVE been preserved in the King James Bible when speaking of English translations.
Well, enough of that. I just wanted to share my story.
It makes me sad that so many people who are lost and feel lost and ADMIT they are lost are still defending M. And it makes me angry enough to want to just come out and say it: that M is a deceiver and a liar and a user and a false teacher.
May Jahovah bless you and keep you who hunger for truth and life.
Michele
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Hi Michele,
welcome and thank you for wanting to bring blessings my way.
No Jahovah tho thanks, your kind thoughts are enough for me.
all the best, Lesley
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Hi Michele,Thanks for your story. I also love and respect Jesus. I pray each day, for myself and others. I understand that many people who have seen the light regarding mr rawat are reluctant to listen to any teachings ever again though, and it is easy to see why. It is a personal thing and something that didn't happen for me when I originally exited but after I had been to a priest to ask advice because I felt spiritually attacked at the time. You will know what I mean if it's ever happened to you. If not you'll have to take my word for it. I was also really afraid of being duped in any and every area of life, since I felt I couldn't trust my own judgement, having had the wool pulled over my eyes and been involved for so long with M. So I was given some prayers, which I have used ever since. I certainly feel protected from many subtle influences and am really grounded and in touch with my intuition a lot more. I still have the free will to follow my intuition of course and it is increasingly easier to do so. The habit of second guessing is abating. A habit of dual mindedness that the cult made second nature. Slowly I have found I get a lot from the prayers and maybe the best thing is I am no longer afraid. Quite often the exact opposite in fact. I'm glad you are out of the deceivers grip. I also thought of him as the anti-Christ the morning of my knowledge session, before I went there on my little bicycle. I rode into a severe head wind half way across the city and lost my shawl without even noticing it had blown away. He had warned me that my 'mind' would kick up a fuss. It turns out that was my intuition. Life is a whole lot better without M anywhere near, as any one on here will be surely confirm. However I am one here who can say I understand you becoming Christian and am happy for you. It is impossible to justify ones faith in God to another. Or the fact that I have felt spiritually attacked. Whatever brings you elevation of mind, emotions, body and particularly on a soul level, is obviously going to be that thing you want to find out more about. I don't have a church or a community. If i give money to charity it is to local initiatives that help people in my country. I don't feel that I can talk to anyone much about prayers, I tell people I pray but I don't feel qualified to talk about Christ although i am usually willing to listen. I'm sorry some branches of christianity have defamed Jesus. Cults have formed in his name too. Over the centuries the church has been overtaken by zealous agendas. One must be particularly discerning, as our experiences with the cult have shown us all. I feel my standards have certainly been raised . I'm glad about that. My standards of behaviour expected from myself and others has also been elevated through some basic christian principles. I saw that I rebelled in my youth from some pretty solid wisdom and tried to reinvent the wheel.
I do know about myself that I require faith and hope and love and trust in myself, in my life and in God. And that I am grateful I actually feel those things now and not just a bitter sweet yearning which is as close as I got with PR's so called knowledge. I sincerely hope each of us find all those important feelings in our lives and in our hearts. wishing you well Suzy
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OMG, Michelle: Hi
Honey. BIG HUG TO YOU. We sat next to each other for at least a
couple years transcribing our nuts off, well you didn’t have any to begin with
so I apologize for the expression!!!!!!!!!!
We were there part-time, full-time, in the ashram, out of the ashram, with,
well, you know the cast. Hi. I’m so glad you’re well. What a tale you told there. Thanks for sharing. Miss you and it took me til the end of the PS
to figure out who it was -- you! I have
a ball here on Ex-Premie.Org’s forum at times and hope you’ve been having a
look-see. I haven’t posted much in years
and then all of a sudden a flurry hit recently.
It’s basically a “whatever,” but a place to get it off your chest about
your M days. I am as irreverent as I
wanna be here. Lost my fear and don’t
care. I also lost a lot of friends,
which saddens me, as they are still on the Knowledge trail, as it were. Just these past few years or year or so, I can’t recall, I have
been loving reading Suzy Q. It’s a
guilty pleasure. She brings a lot of
light into my dark mind and crevices in my heart area. Note to Suzy: When I
got K in ‘72, we were snowed-in and slept over at the ashram out in the outter
burbs after the program in town after a foot-plus of snow overnight. After if took Mahatma Fakirnanand Ji just 55+
minutes to "use" the bathroom, touch up his red tilak, etc. and then painfully sing the dirge “ARRRRRRRTI,” after
lighting the ghee dipped cotton-ball on a tray, lighting frankincense incense, while
clanging his tiny symbols and clicking and clacking his bad dentures all over
the place, in a comically bad tonal voice with a mysterious Hindi accent. (By the way it was sung in BOTH HINDI AND ENGLISH
– ALL 13+ VERSES OR WHATEVER THE NUMBER) No one could leave after the little ditty because
of the snow and ice accumulating an inch an hour. He was a “Ramayani” -- a person who sang the
million-verse Ramayana in the streets for alms.
He lost his shoes a hundred times giving satsang. Forgot them in the bliss. He was an acid head before acid. For the aspirants who just came by for a cup
of chai and brief question after the show, it was Knowledge and Cherrios in the
morning [a throng taxing the plumbing facilities not meant for that many people’s
use.] [Quickly changing the subject, I loved
having lunch recently with the housemother who was there that 24-hour day in ’72 . (She’s obviously gotten more beautiful by the
day – and I didn’t think that was really possible as she was so beautiful then -- as I
hadn’t seen her since around Watergate).
After the Knowledge session, I was kind of lost because I didn’t understand
the experience of Knowledge, didn’t really have one, I had over-hyped it in my
mind, I guess, or just too many soft pretzels with mustard slogging around up there.
I mean I “received it,” but I didn’t “get it.” No experience. But, I got a quick Knowledge Review and was
on my way. Pat on the bum. Michelle: I don’t
know where to begin. We loved Sandy
Meadows and miss him so much stil. He
died way too young. I am still using
today, and have a job because of, the skills I developed transcribing the tapes
of Balyogashwar’s (BORN LORD OF THE YOGIS-- Ha! as M as we both know never
appeared much into yoga or meditation for that matter). His voice volume modulated, as we all know,
to a whisper and then to a yell. So, we
developed great transcribing skills. I
am using them every day at work but for smarter people with better purposes. Yes, it was scary moving out of the ashram in my late 20s
with only busfare and a “Jai Satchitanand” (no pat on the bum). That’s it.
Zip. Nada. Good luck and good on ya with the rest of
your life. And thanks for everything you
devoted, gave and gave up and did, like cooking a million Indian meals and doing the
dishes while sleep-deprived, etc. etc. I miss my beautiful bar mitzvah piano -- taken out of
my parents’ house under my request by premies and put on a truck and driven to
the residence more three-quarters of the way across the country? Man, my folks were ticked. Where is it?
It was made with such fine craftsmanship, I used all of the money if was gifted for
singing from the Haftorah to buy this great musical instrument -- probably in that sink hole
out on Dalhia Street in Denver, site of the old Divine Residence. But to my shocking eyes, when I visited that very spot last
summer, it was just a sinkhole, like at the end of “Poltergeist” were the house
just collapses into itself with great sound effects. A big hole
in the ground with all the neighbors’ nice houses still standing. Only his and his then new wife’s place was a
poltergeist site still today. Well, as for your life with not much, I’m sorry for your troubles, but glad you didn't take your life. You always got us
here (if John still pays the rent), if that helps. But I’m glad you’re
not penny-less today, and maybe Uncle Sam will help you out soon I hope. I have brain issues and hate meditating. Thanks for your sincere prayers which I took
personally and need because I have issues.
Love, OTS
Modified by OTS at Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 05:36:03
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Thank you for your recollections. That was really lovely. I am so glad you are here and that I've been able to meet you in real life. All the best.
Modified by Marianne at Thu, Jun 01, 2017, 09:00:33
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How lovely to read your fabulous details of life then and to see two dear friends connect here. heartwarming. Thank you for telling me you are also heart warmed by some posts of mine, as you say it is mostly just good for getting stuff off your chest here but it is nice to actually have a connection and conversation. Especially as there are a few friends lost along the way! because of how hard it is to look at one's hypnotist parasite and see what's actually on his mind.Even in your darkest hour I shall not abandon you. Remember that? In some sort of code. Meanwhile - abandonment issues anyone? Thank you OTS for your recent posts and re involvement with the forum. I am always ready to hear the beautiful hearts and stories on here
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sorry to hear you have issues. wishing you all the best. hope you keep writing here because I enjoy reading your posts so much. xox
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suffering is just a part of living
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oh yes, just went and read Inis' post and relate to it very much. well except I don't call mine Superior Power. god of my universe will do.
On the topic of suffering. yes of course we all experience pain and suffering. But for a lot of us we spend most of our life in the bracket of could be worse or even in positively pleasurable states. But once it's been bad enough well it makes you wonder about God. As I did at that time. And what I thought was if I were the Almighty then you know what, I'd most definitely tone down on the suffering bit.
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Jahovah? Was that a typo or is that how people in your group say YHWH these days. I mean Yahweh, Jehovah, Yeshua, Yehoshua,
Yeshu have been doing the rounds for years but Jahovah even stumps google
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Hi Michele, despite the translator mistakes, I am struggling with a few issues in the Bible and was wondering if you could answer the following ten questions:
1. I would like to sell my middle daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
2. I have a neighbour who works at Wal-Mart on Sundays. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. I am a little squeamish. Am I morally obligated to smite him myself or should I hire someone else to do it, say from the Mafia?
3. Leviticus 25:44 clearly states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims this rule applies to Mexicans and Orientals but not to Canadians. Why? Can you clarify? Why can't I own a Canadian?
4. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is worthy of hatred or disgust (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality (Lev. 20:13). Can you settle this?
5. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses as do many ministers and priests. Does my vision have to be 20/20 or is there some flexibility here?
6. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. Yeah, I know they have to be killed. Trouble is I really like these guys and if I were to kill them openly I’m sure that in this unenlightened age I would be arrested and charged with murder. Should I hire someone else to kill them or should I kill them myself and make it look like an accident?
7. I want to have an affair but my wife doesn’t agree. Please explain to here that the Bible approves of multiple sexual partners. II Sam. 3:2-5, I Kings 11:3, II Chron. 11:21.
8. My uncle has a farm and violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (a cotton/polyester blend). My uncle also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary to get the whole town together to stone them to death as advised in Lev. 24:10-16? Couldn't we just burn or stone them to death at a private family affair like we do with homosexuals and people who commit adultery (Lev.20:10, 13) or women who have sex before marriage (Deut. 22:13-21).
9. My son has been quite rebellious lately and even though I’m sure it’s just a phase I want to round up some friends and stone him to death as directed in Deuteronomy 21: 18-21. My wife disagrees and says we should communicate with him and try to find out what’s troubling him. Your thoughts?
10. A friend of mine believes that the winged snakes hatched from chicken eggs that can kill with a glance (Isaiah 14:29), fire breathing dragons (Revelation 12: 3), giants (Genesis 6:4), multi-headed fire-breathing serpents (Isaiah 27:1), half men/half goats (2 Chronicles 11:15), and unicorns (Isaiah 34:7) mentioned in the Bible actually existed. The fact that there has been no fossil evidence found for any of these creatures doesn’t seem to bother him a bit. Yet he doesn’t believe in dinosaurs that did leave fossil evidence. How do you explain this?
Sincerely, Steve
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Steve, Your points are excellent! Whilst we are atith it, I'd also like to know is when we burn bulls on the altar as a sacrifice, we know it
creates a pleasing odor to the Lord (Lev.1:9). I think the problem may be our neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should we just go ahead and smite them? Also, we know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead
pig makes one unclean, but can we still play football if we wear gloves? These are weighty issues, particularly since we now know that God has told many that HE will take care of the earth, and we don't really need to worry about greenhouse gases and such trivia. M BTW, would you please send me a picture of your middle daughter??
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He was really angry - what with the revolution and all.
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It is called Cain by Jose Saramago - an excellent writer.
Modified by snow-white at Fri, Jun 02, 2017, 23:24:46
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Hi Steve,
May I suggest that you make contact with some members of ISIS. Even though their reference scriptures is another, they seem to have a pretty good grasp on the implementation of ancient injunctions into our modern times. In spite of some differences between the Bible and Koran, you guys may be able to have some fructuous exchanges.
Love your text! Thank you for the good laughs you generated here!
Modified by Inis at Fri, Jun 02, 2017, 12:31:31
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the text wasn't all mine, although I did spruce it up a bit. Thanks for the compliment. I keep a copy handy for Jehovah Witnesses. God is not in a book.
Modified by Steve at Fri, Jun 02, 2017, 20:20:13
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Steve
Excellent!! I've missed your wit, and just when we need it most you come through  . I have another project for you should you be so inclined...
We need some kind of Trump / guru thing...Steve style. I've been waiting and wishing that someone would finally make the comparisons...cult is a cult...and last night I almost jumped off the couch for joy...they did it!! Comedy Central has a show called "The President Show" that's a total parody...but not...hilarious. "Trump" is the host of a talk show, "Pence" is his sidekick, and they have actual anti Trump guests. Deepak Chopra was on last week and at the end of his segment he, in all seriousness, told "Trump" that he should have a brain scan and MRI to be sure everything was ok !
Anyway, my point...as the show ended last night, "Trump" was doing his final thoughts and they came out to don him with Jim Jones robes, sunglasses, handed out Dixie cups...the works. I laughed so hard and thought 'finally they did it'...yay.
Mainstream society knows more about Jim Jones than the guru of course, but Trump is more like him (m) than anyone else don't you think? I'd love to read anything you'd do on that for sure, if you could stomach it.
Humor is the only way to survive this life...thanks for yours, Genny
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Oh yes, very clever clever. No Christian denomination since the beginning has ever tried to apply any of that, so what's your point? I'm not a card carrying Christian myself, but I find this kind of attitude an unpleasant hangover from the virulent premie antichristian mentality.
There are people who abide by the literal interpretation of scripture but they hail from a different religion, the one armed with the AK47s, which gets a free pass every time.
I don't have a problem with Michele having found Jesus after leaving the cult. It's a benign option. Not the one for me, but I wouldn't belittle those who've chosen that path.
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“Spirit” is a Latin word meaning breath – respiration, breathing in and breathing out
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. ~ Genesis 2:7
The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life. ~ Job 32:8
Behold, you have made my days handbreadths. My lifetime is as nothing before you. Surely every man stands as a breath. ~ Psalms 39:5
Man is like a breath. His days are like a shadow that passes away. ~ Psalms 144:4
He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that rules his spirit than he that takes a city. ~ Proverbs 16:32
The breath of man is a lamp of the Lord, searching all the inner parts of the heart. ~ Proverbs 20:27
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. ~ Ecclesiastes 12:7
Thus says God Yahweh, he who created the heavens and stretched them out, he who spread out the earth and that which comes out of it, he who gives breath to its people and spirit to those who walk in it. ~ Isaiah 42:5
For you have proudly defied the Lord of heaven and have had these cups from his Temple brought before you. You and your nobles and your wives and concubines have been drinking wine from them while praising gods of silver, gold, bronze, iron, wood, and stone – gods that neither see nor hear nor know anything at all. But you have not honored the God who gives you the breath of life and controls your destiny! ~ Daniel 5:23
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ~ Jesus (John 3:6)
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. ~ Jesus (John 4:24)
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. ~ Jesus (John 14:26)
Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me I also send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” ~ John 20:21, 22
Those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. ~ Saint Paul (Romans 8:14)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. ~ Saint Paul (2 Corinthians 3:17)
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead. ~ James 2:26
Modified by Steve at Fri, Jun 02, 2017, 20:19:02
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.....blew himself to bits at a pop concert to make his point was when?
You need to fine tune your dislike of organised religion.
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Of course we want to differenciate ourselves completely from this group who nowadays embodies the maximum of "evil" doings on the planet.Like the nazis did during WW2
And of course no doubt, what they are doing is horrific.
But but...if you allow me, I will tell you that one positive thing I gained from having been involved in this full blast cult with Rawat, is the understanding that I too have been blinded to a huge extent. I too was totally sold to his injonctions. I too acted like a freaking stupid puppet.
As a result sure at times I feel ashamed. But, and that is a positive, I also feel humbled. As I also know it is possible. Because it did happen. To me. It does happen to others as well And yes we were lucky not to have been taken further into actions like killing and so forth. Very lucky.
So sure we can fine tune and differenciate. We are not were not like these people. But can we also see what we shared with them? Had in common with them? What all cults have in common.
Modified by Inis at Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 11:27:41
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Innis: Just one small point: I love your true sentiment about knowing now
that one can be duped in this lifetime. I
don’t want you to feel smashed by my slight opposition to one statement in your
great post and run away (our very good luck at not killing or the like): You see, it took me a long time and
even the personal, friendly public joking and one-on-one counselling by M
himself to get over my calling for the immediate beheading of the man who disrespected
him in a public ceremony. I did this on national public television after two of
our cult-members were involved in the actual attack of the disrespecting
journalist, who died earlier than he had to with a steel plate in his head put
in in the aftermath of the attack, which I gleefully and sickly advocated, like
a pro wrestling fan, for all to see WITH A FISH EYE LENSE ON TV to make me
appear an even sicker looking individual than obviously I already was. Whew, I don’t dwell on those days any longer,
but it was a difficult psychological time for me, but to help me, of course,
DLM provided me with expert psychological counseling paid for by our super IHQ Headquarters
Health Plan (the last part only was a dream).
I just stopped eating and stayed in for 2 weeks. I made Joan Apter’s personal Hanuman of the
Year list.
Modified by OTS at Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 12:37:46
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The power of beliefs huh? well done OTS for waking up! Huge hug and pat on the back! I'm pretty sure the superpowers we attributed to Warat had f.. all to do with your transformation from blindly devoted cog in the wheel to someone who is in touch with their humanity. Rather the superpower of You. I wasn't part of the stupid scene at that time but I can imagine you were not the only one to feel that way,even if you were the only one to say so out loud... I have a suspicion that the self proclaimed lard would have been personally pleased with your attitude at the time and really only on legal advise would he have expressed otherwise.
Thinking about it isn't this enlightenment schtick meant to make us impervious to pies thrown in our faces anyway? Certainly if one is meant to be the master of all that? In my mind it would have been more appropriate if he had laughed it off and called the pie thrower in for a chat and given him a darshan moment and a good humoured blessing? Don't ever mess with an over inflated ego that has a krishna crown tucked in the back of the wardrobe seemed to be the overriding message
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I'm very glad you mention this OTS. It has washed away my worry about you after first seeing that clip sometime around 2005 after knowing you for so many years.
It's made me delve back contemplating the degree and quality of devotion and allegiance I was prompted to reach to, carry, and develop for all my adult life, then dismantle. ...and still deconstructing it.
That clip had remained my lasting impression of you, and otherwise I had always felt a good friendship and akinship with you, such a likeable guy you are. Back then, and probably still now for the premies, the extreme expressions of allegiance and fanaticism echoed off each other and imprinted mutual states of fanaticism. I'm glad now to know you are OTS and have emerged from that state of devotion to great distance with wisdom arising out from where you/we were back then. (I didn't recognize OTS was you -- who is that guy, I must have known him -- and while not having been able to puzzle out who is OTS, if ever remembering you I'd think of that clip. Now I won't have to imagine it's still your state of mind!).
When I first saw the clip, I was still in the utter thrall of devotion as the core of my worldview, and I could very well relate to your extreme feeling you expressed on camera, though recognizing it was a bit over the edge to a ghastly degree -- somewhat like I could even understand Fakiranand's over-the-edge extremism in his act of crazed or maybe calm careful premeditated execution. Yours were only mere words, though fierce and unmistakable was your intent (or at least a very good act for the news camera!) -- while Fakir's was the abhorrent act -- still both somewhere on the same spectrum of fanaticism). Seeing your fierce devotion on camera gave resonance to me back then, a resonance in my own feeling of extreme devotion without my advocating Fakir's act or your words. I too had strong fanaticism, like of course many of us had in various forms this extreme streak of "religious" fanaticism then. I always tried in every way to build in myself the extremes of thorough devotion, but within whatever limits I could myself understand as proper, or as unlimited as proper. And I admired anyone else's quality and version of their own devotional state even if disliking their manner of acting out.
When later I was no longer a premie, seeing the clip again, it helped me put into perspective and understand my own devotional madness -- simply by seeing the documentation of your outright expression of something I could admire in your spirit and loyalty, it gave me distance to view my own skewed extremism. And I think that "Fakiranand event" has given me throughout life something of a perspective, a comprehension of how human beings can reach to performing inhuman acts, rather than being myself mystified at how people come to perform such extreme acts even as we now hear about them almost daily prompted by allegiances I can't understand.
Seems loyalty and extremes of devotion are both one of the banes of human character and one of the virtues. ...yet a greater admixture of kindness and compassion maybe will bring the human race's survival through the next 1000 years, as it has through the past 200,000.
OTS, I just meant to write that I was happy to know you've gone so far beyond that past, as we all have, and in hope my writing might add to alleviate any trace of lingering guilt or onus of unresolved feeling from those events of so long ago. I know my own self-imposed traumas are the hardest to expunge, and somehow others' understanding sometimes helps.
Modified by tarvuist at Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 20:12:54
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Good to see you... We crossed paths many times and many places over all those years...Denver, tapatio & the conferences...etc etc.
...unless there's more than one who wanted to decapitate the pie-guy and said so on camera, in which case we both remain anonymous.
Nevermind -- it's all way past.
Modified by tarvuist at Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 20:10:30
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I'm presuming that my last post was deleted because I posted an image from the TVTV
lord of The Universe documentary which supposedly could identify you though you outed yourself pretty comprehensively as far as I could tell. If you didn't get to read the post I said something like Warat might be divine if his counselling changed you from the moustachioed killer rabbit in the fish eye lens to the smart, funny guy who posts on ex-PF now.
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Hey Rawatcher, it wasn't cool to post that video. I'm glad it's been taken down. OTS would post it if he wanted it up.
Out yourself if you want to out anybody.
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Thank you for coming out with this story OTS.I would like to write more but feel very weak right now. And no I wont run away. I dont get it though...Pat Halley did not die or did he? Cynthia just posted on this attack on him.
And yes the violence was very tangible round R I remember clearly my first interactions with premies when I got to the U.S. Going to this event for instance in a big hotel. And he was not even there. Was just a satsang event. I was new. The way this usher grabbed so strongly my upper arm to have me sit where she was supposed to make me sit. Uuughh... The formal dressses and suits added to the creepiness. At least it was then my feeling.
Little soldiers of god.. divine army...hehe I guess human beings do have that in them. That is feels "allright" to channel one' s violence into the devotion to one master or religion or cause.
Congratulations to you for having gotten away. And tell it as it was now.
Modified by Inis at Mon, Jun 05, 2017, 01:12:55
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Hey stay tough sister, stay strong. Bad shit happened yeah, but we're all out and on better paths. It's all so challenging but we got to be up for it, we owe that to our self. Rawat's coming to a town very near me soon to talk, and an old friend wants to stay at mine so he can attend. I don't have the heart to refuse him, so I have to act out the best I can. Kind wishes to you
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Aargghh Danny, I could not do it!I mean hosting someone going to see him. I hosted lots of premies in the past so they could go up to the rez...but geez now I could not stay quiet. Good luck with it man If you start saying something well you know what kind of response you will get.
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I know, he's such a nice guy this old pal though. I have said I can't be bothered with the events anymore though. Hopefully we go for a beer and talk of other things.
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Giving an old friend a bed for the night, even though you & he have moved far apart in your outlook on life, is the proof that humanity can prevail over ideology. The proof to yourself that is, the wider world doesn't give a fuck.
I get it the other way round, now & then. I have a few old friends, going back to before we got the specialK, lifer premies all, who meet up every couple of years or so in the back of beyond in the west of Ireland. I still get invited though they well know my position regarding the ji, but to me that means they are holding allegiance to something deeper than their belief.
I've had a few freaky deaky moments with them in the past , like, 'watch it, you're the only apostate around here', ..... but I brush that aside as the next one is in July & I'm looking forward to catching up with their lives. By then, whatever rush they got from seeing him in June will have evaporated entirely.
It's always been this way.
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I take it you are in the UK. We have some quite crazy Christians over here who ridicule climate change and can't wait for the rapture. I need to fine tune my dislike of organized religion? I have no idea what you mean by that.
Modified by Steve at Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 19:53:21
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PatD, my understanding of the above conversation was that you can’t find Truth in scripture. Scriptures are like signposts and are not the real thing – the real thing being peace, God, soul, the Tao, the Word, whatever you want to call it. Truth exists only within a living, breathing human being, not on paper. An analogy might be, "The map is not the territory," which illustrates the difference between concepts and reality. You can’t find truth with a capital “T” on a piece of paper covered with black squiggly lines in the same way you wouldn’t go into a restaurant and eat the menu. That was my point.
I was a Christian before receiving Knowledge so I am not anti-Christian if it does no harm. It's just that scriptures, rules, regulations, "rites and rituals never reach the goal." That’s eating the menu. Spirituality is better than religion.
This site explains Islam perfectly:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/hell-and-hate.aspx
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I don't have a problem with Michele having found Jesus after leaving the cult. It's a benign option. Not the one for me, but I wouldn't belittle those who've chosen that path.
Thank you for expressing my thoughts so much better than I would have. And with many fewer words.
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This is really funny ! I have seen this before somewhere, haha
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For Listener
Dear Michelle,
Hello and welcome.
Thank you for joining in and sharing your past with us. I'd love to hear more about your Denver days...the ashram, leaving it, leaving him. That's where I'm from too. I was 3 years old when my young parents found the guru in '72...I distinctly remember a Festival where I was up on my dad's shoulders and they carried him on his rose covered chariot right by me. My mom would bring pillows to satsang so I could sleep if I wanted, or I could join in the singing and trancing too, if I wanted. To see the old DLM mansion on Race St in Denver now is just a sad, dark sight.
My mom and I left the guru early on, my dad stayed...he was one of the abandoned ones in Denver, early '80's...my Journey tells the rest. Anyway, since I'm not a real ex-premie and offer up a different voice, I hesitated in responding to you for a while. What can I possibly offer her?
Then I realized, I do connect with you and should chime in. First, there's the Denver thing. I had to move away last year and miss it, desperately. Any time I get to hear or talk about it is good for me. Also...I know how it feels to be suicidal...and I know how it feels to lose people to suicide. I want you to know how good it is that you are here, the world needs you no matter what god you believe in. I hope you give yourself enough credit for saving yourself. The guru didn't save you, and neither did god...or the human male who walked in Grace two thousand years ago. You saved yourself, with the help of your belief in something greater than yourself, which comes from you.
I tend to shy away from this conversation, but I thought I'd mimic your bravery in sharing your beliefs, and lesley's awesomeness in meeting any uncomfortable topic head on without judgment, with open arms, and a bit of honest disagreement mixed with tolerance for varying viewpoints. And then a few others here stated their beliefs, briefly as is appropriate for a cult leaving site, and I really appreciate knowing the different ways people went after the guru.
But you lose me a little bit after more than one mention of the bible. I appreciate that it serves you. Some of my favorite people are devout Catholics and devoted Christians, we respect each other's spiritual space, and don't preach to each other. Because I personally do not believe that the bible contains the only words of god, and they don't make me feel like I'm damned because of it...they may secretly feel that way of course, but I don't feel any less loved by them. I thought, since you were so brave to come here and share, that you might also be interested in other philosophies of path, and maybe you'd appreciate mine in it's vastly different nature from yours. It's a kinda scary thing to share, spiritual beliefs...so deeply personal yet universal at the same time.
I have zero problems with statements like "The Bible and God are faithful and true" WHEN they're followed with, "for me". At first I admired your seemingly open mind...willingness to share a belief yet concede to the reason we're all here, talk about m, and understanding many here will not be of your same religion...at first. But then you started to make me feel like you think I should believe in the bible too. You left out the "for me." You quote scripture to me as though I need to hear it. And you slip in parenthesis a little condescending quip to those of us who don't "(or not yet) believe in Yeshua". You lost me a little bit more.
But I do so admire the strength and humility it takes to leave a cult, to share the pain and healing, and to reach out and help others who want it. I'm hoping that you don't really want to change my mind, I think you just want to help people be well...god and bible helped you, and you just want to share that. I'll share too...the bible simply isn't for me. Not in a "or not yet" kind of way, in a never ever kind of way. And not just the bible and Christianity, I have an aversion to most religions, especially the patriarchal ones that rely on fear. When I realized I could have God and deep spiritual awareness in my life without religion, it was incredibly liberating.
After my bizarre guru is God childhood, terrifying "just tell them you're a Christian" adolescence, and atheist as fuck teenage hood...I started having dreams...the kind that would no longer allow me to turn a blind eye to the existence of some kind of Divine Intellegence. Or the fact that I was having weird psychic visions since I was 10 years old. I started associating the visions and dreams and knowing of things with god, rather than the guru or any other guy. Ultimately, God really is unknowable...we can only rely on faith. I do believe in god, just probably a bit different than yours. I think of it as Source Energy..The Great Mystery, void of Form, name, or gender...
I honor it by harming none. Apologizing if I do. I take spiders outside, I take pictures of every gorgeous sunrise I see, and I take good care of the gentle hearts and beautiful plants around me. I find awe in my heart for the spectacular dance of the Stars, and the dance of the lil fly bugs that are about to become dinner for the bats that are gearing up for their dance as I write this...dinner at dusk. Because I'm so damaged, and so easily wounded, I live a very simple and probably sheltered life. Im devoted to kindness...it matters...honesty, and not tolerating shittiness. (Not at all referring to anyone here, just everyday people). I feel like a pretty good person generally, but I know for sure some would judge me a sinner going straight to hell fast. Anyone devoted to an antiquated patriarchy would for sure look down on me. Luckily I don't care. I'm extremely protective of my inner child...the one who still gets visions...and I rely heavily on my intimate relationship with my imaginary friend, Great Mystery, to cope with them...and I didn't need the bible to get me there. I hope you know that those of us who want nothing to do with it are still gonna be OK.
Anyway, here's to leaving cults, to beating suicide, and living a life to allow for a good nights sleep for those sweet sweet dreams. Thanks for sharing, and for letting me do the same.
Be well, Genny
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Hey Genny, I just read your reply to Listener, and I am really struck by your words. Can I just second everything you said. I would have said something like that, but you put it so much better. You write so well, and you seem to have such an open and balanced attitude, like many on here. A big thanks from me, even though I was not the one being addressed.
And I also have had many vivid visionary dreams, sometimes predicting future events, or taking me on spiritual learning paths. I loved your tale of being a brave gentle honest kid, and continuing to grow. All the very best of wishes from me.
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Deeply appreciate the kind words dannyxg
I'm new to writing and so it really does mean a lot to me that it's actually working out. I'm pretty good at spewing rage, staying open and peaceful is the challenge...I'm delighted that you saw that...I worry about sounding too judgy...last thing I'd want for sure. This site has helped tremendously in that regard...trying to take the lead of the wide open minds here.
Here's to ever more sweet dreams, G
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Thanks, Genny [again] and for refreshing our memory of your unique place in all of this. That was wonderful. My wife still regrets dropping off her little son at childcare at the Indian Center or in the Kittridge Bldg. unsupervised!!!! He's fine now. Maybe you and him played together and that's why he's doing really well now in life. And like you, never "received the Knowledge." Oh, but you two were effected by all of the hoopla, for sure. Yes, I saw 1560 Race Street with my own eyes last summer. What a dump it has become. Failing. A sad property. Re: the procession carrying Rawat in his flowered mala and crown down in Florida when you were still using your sipppy cup: I built that place! Me and my friends. Premies all. Two years in a row!!! A little city for 20,000. What an unbelievable venture. But later in life I realized that the joy I felt that day was self-induced while seeing the same thing as you, I guess. But be certain that I was not sitting on my Daddy's shoulders. He wouldn't even take off his shoes when he picked me up at the ashram after satsang one time -- before you were born. Just plain wouldn't do it. East Coast bias and arrogance. A statement kind of guy in a Tony Soprano kind of way. The thing that made me pick up this computer and type (and respond to you) was your statement about being dedicated to not taking shit (and the part about being dedicated to being nice to others, as well, of course). RIGHT THE F ON, [SISTER... I MEAN] YOUNG LADY. Thanks for that post. OTS
Modified by OTS at Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 05:08:04
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You make me actually laugh out loud...thanks so much for that!
I used to fantasize about buying that old Race St mansion and turning it into something beautiful for the community. Strangely, Denver is sorely lacking any real hub for suicide survivors and I hoped it could serve us in that way...plenty of room for both gathering and sacred spaces...wanted to have healing gardens...and an all night coffee shop for 1st responders...oh what could have been.
I can't even begin to guess what it would cost, I'd need a true miracle!
Maybe it's better that it's as scary as it is now if only for the sake of it reflecting the way we feel about guru and old days.
Hoping Listener will reach back to you, I thought that was an awesome connect!
G
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Hi Listener,
Welcome to the Forum. This is a great place to deconstruct a lot of the ji's "concepts" that have been lurking in our brain for decades.
John, JHB, the administrator, has set up a separate forum for non-rawat topics. I feel this subject of Jesus and the Bible fall into that category. I wonder if this thread could be moved over there. It is likely to get heated.
Thanks,
Karen Kirschbaum
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Hi Karen,
And thank you for posting a full profile...which I did not dare doing so far. It is courageous of you.
No offence, but I really hope this thread won't be moved and disappear. Things cannot be put in neat little boxes. And yes I understand this forum is about R and our involvement with it. Yet everything is interconnected. Cults, religions - and as a matter of fact there are cults which are non-religious like the one Hitler generated - have lots in common.
I think it is nice that people on this forum are sticking their necks out So far I can see, yet again I am very new here, everyone seem to be quite courteous. Expressing opinions is sometimes dis-agreeing. And it props us to come out more when that happens.
Even though I can be very courageous at times, I get also very scared and fearful. This forum is doing me lots of good. Sincerely. I enjoy the liveliness of it. And hope it can remain that way. Lively.
Modified by Inis at Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 23:04:26
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I agree that these days it's not necessary for us to discuss on this forum anyone's current beliefs and religious adherence post-Rawat cult. It is a subject better discussed on the off topic forum, but I think this thread is mostly about involvement with Rawat and should stay.
I hope you're well, Karen.
Love, Cynth
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