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Last night i watched "Leah Remi - Scientology and the aftermath" - On A&E - I had never seen this before - It was a brand new episode
DC cultmember alerted us to this back on january 22nd
I too went back and watched all 8 episodes after i watched the show last night
So many parallels - it truly went right to the stomach - So many stories - What made it hard hitting - was the fact that it was on tv. no pulling punches
The host Leah Remi - was involved for over 25 years and interviews some inner and outer circle people - who reminded me of many of us.
By watching this my percentage of leaving just went up at least another 40% - I only needed 20%
Modified by philareflection at Tue, May 30, 2017, 10:23:01
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well I'm glad to hear you're 120% out of the cult - but to be honest I've never understood the partial percentages, other than as an expression of the time it takes to catch up to oneself because once the penny drops, once those rose tinted glasses fall off that's it. I can't really say I didn't know or only half knew. It's getting my breath back, picking myself up off the floor that takes a bit of time.
Modified by lesley at Tue, May 30, 2017, 14:13:55
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thats fine for you - but for me the penny is more like a hundred bucks - even when the rose tinted glasses came off - i was emotionally in a place to let go gradually - so for me percentages of me leaving/left is the best way to describe my journey
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yeah I can accept that. I think it's something I've experienced too, where you are half denying like some shutters go down and it feels like a protective thing that just happens. but I am curious - what makes you say that the penny dropping was a so much bigger deal for you than for others?
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lesley: i really i just wanted to tell my experience of watching that show and how important it was for me to see it on tv.
the penny dropping for me was a big deal - because again for me it was not a penny - its like you can hear and defend something a million times - but until your open to hearing the other side - then it all makes sense
i had invested so much of my life and psyche to m that for me it has been a gradually letting go - and the only way i could best describe it for me is in percentages
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Haha, thine cup runneth over nowI also was really lifted out of the fog and became clear as a bell about leaving when typing in "false guru" or something similar to google when first exiting ( and obsessing, to an extent) and found to my delight 'frank waaldijks weblog on pitfalls of spirituality, from a personal and often philosophical perspective, based on 12 years experience with sahaj marg.'
Frank Waaldijks personal insights and his bullet points of pitfalls which he explored in detail in his blog really hit home the absolute similarities between us. Different cult, but I got it!! a cult is a cult is a cult. And shock, horror! it became glaringly obvious as I consumed his blog,unable to stop reading, I had well and truly been in one. For some reason it was easier to see while looking at a related example of cult pitfalls than a specific example of the one I'd been enduring for the last 30 years. Clang! the bell resounded through my whole being, I hit 120% out right then. Perhaps a few premies watched the same show on TV last night........
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" a cult is a cult is a cult "Yesterday I was reading about ISIS. True, they are going great extents. The core is similar though
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
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I've been sick for some days - something that is more common in a 70 year old than a 17 year old - and in fever I kept returning to the ideas that were inspired by the one time pimp of Prem Warats who briefly starred on XPF. I had hardly thought of Premology for years before reading those posts and so thoughts of guilt revolved around my pillow. Were all premies so bereft of ethics that they’d accept anything to hang around Warat’s fat gut and have the chance to kiss his arse on a physical rather than ethereal basis?
As lucid intervals increased I began to remember other naughtiness of the past. Premies looked good compared to Rajneeshis who actually committed crimes and attempted mass murder while (as far as I’ve ever heard) premies have done no worse than lying about Prem Warat’s wealth, character, achievements and behaviour and some small-time smuggling. Rajneesh was such a rotter he was even on prime time TV in Australia being deported from the USA. He was unable to project his characteristic jaunty insouciance in his mug shots and I think that is the real test of the guru.
Yes Prem’s personal assistant did pimp for him but only backstage with blondes above the age of consent whereas devotees of Swami Baba Muktananda had secret tunnels built for the Master of Shaktipat to reach the underage girls’ quarters at night to spread his shakti around by penis rather than via a feather duster. While his disgrace didn’t rate on the TV he did make the CoEvolution Quarterly but that didn’t stop SYDA rising to greater heights and having a second generation scandal with teenage guru resigning over sex scandals, unresigning and then being deposed at the tip of a cane and other various non-specific beatings. This scandal went past the counter-culture and reached the pages of the New Yorker, a much smaller but more discerning audience than Rajneesh’s.
I don’t know how pathetic premies can be but one ex-insyda was part of a special meditation group who were ordered to get together daily to use special meditation techniques to convince the editor not to publish the expose. This proved beyond the power of Gurumayi and her special team of acolytes and Siddha Yoga devotees worldwide.
Then I got tired and all these other gurus and cults and NRMs started swarming around my mind and I remembered there were probably hundreds if not thousands of spurious gurus.
Does anyone know of a real truthful, helpful, hard-working, honest guru?
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interesting post with a lot to look at. But for now let me share that both Rajneesh and Muktananda were very learned and inspiring figures before they fell to the temptation of sex, drugs and power abuse. Read their books and you'll see. I was attracted to neither of them but was aware of who they were and what they were doing. Rawat, on the other hand, does not posses the depth of knowledge of Yoga/Religion/science of meditation. He never did. He's a bumbling fool.
As for your final question, the classic Guru/Disciple relationship is doomed before it starts. It presupposes that the Guru is on a literal and figurative pedestal that has no room for the disciple. It is inevitable that abuse in all forms will take place which is the very fuel that keeps the disciple off the pedestal. Honest teachers (not magical Gurus) do exist. As an example there is the Theravada Buddhist tradition (here in the West known as Vipassana/Insight meditation). These are teachers that due to sincere effort have reached levels of understanding about the human condition and in turn use their experience and wisdom to guide others on the path. No magical promises. No pedestals. All are welcome to study and learn and also be teachers. It's a very noble tradition.
The magical Guru model probably has a place in poor villages in India where the worship of the Guru provides a sense of relief from their hard lives. Bottom line is...it's a money game. And when money is part of the equation, dishonesty and abuse are inherent
Modified by Howardyang at Wed, May 31, 2017, 06:39:50
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I don't think it's a path. I think it's a roundabout. Either way I reckon I'll just sit here.
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I like that. Definitely a roundabout!
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Buddha's on a roundabout but Jesus gets a free pass?
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The magic roundabout I was thinking of was the one with prem at the controls... Once I left i had the distinct impression I had not moved forward in my self or in my life, I had been marking time. As far as the difference between buddha and jesus, Suzy prefers jesus because he got amongst it and healed people and displayed compassion, taught love. I haven't delved into too many buddhist doctrines but it seems to me it is similar to prems idea of- if i'm enlightened what does it matter about the state of the rest of the world. words like detachment are de rigeur. There were plenty of ascetics in the christian faith who hid away in mountain caves, but i think that was more in the time of wholesale persecution of christians, I might be wrong. people do all sorts of individualistic things in the name of a wider teaching. My free pass for Jesus is because i like that he has kindness and honesty as principals of being in society. The entire justice system in the west is based upon his teachings. Conversely sharia law etc is still based on the standards of fairly primitive times, similar to the times in which he tried to stage a bit of a revolution. From my understanding at the time there were many god's to appease in mankind's consciousness, sacrifices needed to be made for weather and crop harvests etc. Jesus tried to teach God is One and God is Love. So they sacrificed him to atone for mankind's sins, according to the prophecy's of the old testament already. There is a beautiful quote i heard somewhere -' the whole universe is made of stories' Some have a core resonance with the evolving soul of mankind. My relationship with myself, with God and Goddess, with any teachings- is a highly individual experience with many facets already cut from my past and my culture. Other facets i am hewing from the stone myself, letting in new lights and colours . There is only me here, no one else to please but the ineffable. Some things i rejected as shallow previously were only shallow because i had not discovered the depths. Like many of us I was swept up in the story of the 6o's too which led many of us along the new/old paths of the east. Now I say prayers, as i've mentioned here before. Thats it, thats all I do. Prayers to Jesus and the Holy Trinity. It gives me an anchor for something that has no outlet otherwise, I had a daily spiritual practise that i had for more than 30 years.Trying to hide in the now! I recognised I needed something, i couldn't personally dismiss the part of me that was sincerely seeking a relationship with God in a bod, not for the long haul anyway. I had no clue what to do really, but after going quietly insane for a bit, ended up finding a person I could talk to about feeling spiritually attacked and he happened to be a priest in the russian orthodox religion, I did a bit of investigating and realised I preferred the orthodox take on things for the most part to any of the other christian churches. They are more realistic in their view that this is a therapy. Within the confines of the doctrine each person, each individual case of help sought is recognised as a highly individual matter. Another person going to the same priest with similar questions may not have been given the prayers. i have not been in touch with the priest since. i have not felt the need. that was some time ago now, more than a year. I'm not going to go into the different reasons why more than this, because if anyone really wants to know about that stuff you can find out for yourselves. I have no stake in what anyone else thinks or does to get through this dark night. As long as it's not hurting one another. we have all been through enough. The principal of Love , surely however you embody that for yourself has got to be the way through. Prem did prey on the most vulnerable part of us and as we split off from him we can thank our lucky stars that we can find ways that resonate with our best selves, find people that can help us. there are only so many colours in the universe, and then many individual hues of those. I am finding out the colours of my soul.
I am isolated here, hardly any one around. Occasionally trips to the city bring me in touch with old friends. I am comforted by prayers. So? I can beat myself up if I like, tell myself I need to show more self made woman skills than that, but I'm honestly tired of pushing myself around the way i did with prems false knowledge. I'm in a process of forgiving myself. Jesus is coming out tops for that in my little life. No big deal, i haven't noticed any change in my behaviours except I've more integrity. No loss of contact with anyone or judging of any body. No joining forces either. No need to say this is what one must do, no need to be right anymore. More compassion for others as the prayers sink in. More humility on my part and less fear. I don't feel my critical thinking is compromised, i feel i actually think more clearly and question myself more honestly.
Prem was wrong, yep. Just like the last abusive narc partner I had was a total shit. Shall I stay away from all male relationship for the rest of my days, because he was a male? or shall i acknowledge that the larger part of me actually still believes love between two people is possible. I am now aware I can choose either way. One thing praying has done is opened my eyes to the fact that I have choice, total choice, every moment, every decision it is up to me. i didn't operate that way with the K.
For the last few years i have chosen a life of practically solitary confinement, hiding from the stalker but aware that i am not going to be able to kill the part of me that is wounded, i am just going to have to heal somehow and start again
Shall I stay away from the part of me that has always sought a relationship with my spiritual side,an understanding of my self in relation to God? Shall I give prem the kudos that yes he has ripped me away from a truly innocent and whole place in myself through spiritual rape? shall I intellectualise and analyse myself to smitherines and tell myself I am not to indulge in this human failing of seeking a living relationship with creator through the creation because it got me into a mess before? Or did it/ Was it me or was it him? Somedays the jury is still out, but I continue with the daily prayers and feel no ill effects, and believe me I am forever watchful.
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goodness. it was lovely to read.
I relate a lot being in a similar situation - tho I have neighbours and one of them told me not long after I moved in that when you live alone you have to talk to yourself, and gave me this nicest little smile as she checked to see if I'd understood her.
of course you do. who exactly it is you are talking to, this person who loves you who knows better than you, is open to debate - from a bit of yourself to an imagined friend to an imagination of a real person you have a connection with, to a disembodied entity.
yeah, no I lost respect for Jesus back in my 40's, along with Prem and so really I only had God left in my sights. And then I lost respect for Him too.
So to me it is this magical thing I could talk forever about and might never speak of and am grateful to experience, and I just love my god to bits.
Modified by lesley at Fri, Jun 02, 2017, 00:29:53
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It's interesting for me how much more i feel now. i don't talk an awful lot to myself, I tend to write more. I do talk quite a bit to the cat though! and she talks back. We have a language, she literally says helll lo...I suppose in prayer i acknowledge a superior power. I remind myself of the daily fact that there are things I can't change. events I have no power over. I remind myself that MY reactions to all the events of the coming day will have an impact. I remind myself to honour my inner being. to be humble and also trusting in the natural course of things, patience. I remind myself to trust. I ask for inner guidance. At one point I pray for many different people, starting with my family and any one who has come to me and shared their troubles with me. At this point I am doing an experiment. I have chosen to pray for my parents as individuals for 4 months, every day. Doesn't matter that they're dead. I pray for blessings and forgiveness for them and for us and for me. I am doing this experiment out of an inner guidance that came to me about 2 weeks ago. I will see whether by september I am still carrying the same baggage from there. I would be really so happy if life turned out to be that simple. There's an irrepressible part of me that is an eternal optimist, that thinks if i got the message to do it then it's entirely possible that is exactly what i need. whats the alternative? not listen to myself? I had a lot of training with that with rawat. I have included one family member , also deceased who i hate. It is much harder to pray for him. I try. I didn't get inner guidance for that. I simply included him because it is hard, because I'm not ready to forgive, some days I forget I don't pray for rawat but I do pray for all you lot and all his premies, with special mention for OTS as of this morning. Some days the list is long. But it doesn't matter, I gain perspective. And I understand my vulnerability and my strength. I remind myself to be grateful. I acknowledge the existence of the miraculous and vast creation of which I am a part. As the time has gone on and I have made a routine out of it, 10 minutes- twice a day, almost like affirmations, or at least in the way that they work. I find my point of "I" has deepened. There is more of Me present now when I address God. It's hard to say exactly what is different from when I was involved in the cult but it is best described as the way i feel in my body. I have never been all that great at staying on the ground. I have the flight part of the PTSD down pat, also amazingly skilled at freeze, disassociation they call it, I used to like it, had to be told be a psychologist that no it's actually not a good thing, I have been kicking "freeze's" butt out the door lately and refusing to shut up if I am expected to.refusing to switch off or become afraid I haven't had any real problems with freeze symptoms for a while now when i think about it. It would happen all the time while I was in the cult. I'm pretty sure meditation did not help me in that regard. As far as fight goes, I have recently been misconstrued as fighting when in all honesty i was simply stating my case. I have very little real fight history but what there is of it is fairly legendary and it turns out I pull no punches and it's lucky I don't own any weapons. So as far as therapy for this particular manifestation of PTSD goes, Suzy style, prayers work well. A routine, something I find really hard to implement in any other sphere of my life except spiritually. Even just that , One routine to embrace -helps me. Also an active role in the 'meditation' a speaking aloud of a self affirming statement and an entrusting of problems, mine and others, to a higher knowing. An affirming of faith in a divine plan. If you guys don't need that, not to worry. I do however, and I know I do. Mental illness is not an option. There have been times I've had to remind myself of that. I choose what i need from what's left on the table. Even though in the past there have been times when i have felt like overturning that table. But I don't trust the proud independent side of myself to carry me through every kind of day I find myself living. I know there will be ups and downs. So I steady my boat with my daily affirming God prayers. As time goes on I feel my point of I becoming more soulful. All of this is very private to me. I hardly know why I'm writing it here. Just to say that all this time while none of you thought of me as someone aligning herself with prayers of Jesus and Mary, did I make sense to you? Did we share real human insights? was I religious? did i push your buttons? did I hear you as an equal? and now?
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yes, you're right, you have treated me as an equal and not pushed buttons, we've both been supportive and we've been able to share our insights. And I didn't have any idea you were into Jesus or had such a strong religious practise. I did recognise you had some sort of religious belief in God but thought it was likely to be more Buddhist based.
And yes we are talking about private stuff. It's a bit like the conversations I used to have with my mum. 
One of the things that crosses from religious to irreligious is prayer. Everyone prays. You don't need to believe in God for that. And when someone you love is suffering and you've done everything else that you can, you pray for them.
I do believe good wishes can be felt and make a person feel better. and I might just believe praying for them somehow leads you down the right path to be able to help that person the way you can.
Anyway bottom line watching someone you love suffer or in trouble yourself, it's better to be doing something than nothing and maybe that's all there is to it. maybe it's just this beautiful thing that kicks off in exigent circumstances and helps you through them.
I was splat on the floor the other day and my very atheist, keep that shit away from me bridge teaching friend, Pat rings me up to tell me her woes and all I can do is tell her how much I'm hurting. She was really very good and ended up telling me to trust myself. sigh, I replied, been there done that. but I knew she was right and I did feel a bit better.
Modified by lesley at Fri, Jun 02, 2017, 19:10:32
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Thanks Lesley, I agree with all of the above btw.The times when I really had to trust myself weren't always easy! even when i knew that was exactly what was needed. Good that you felt better after that. lately I've been telling myself to give up the struggle. Give in to the flow. I've felt so stuck for the last few months, trying to move, new job, new surroundings. Hold ups going on and on and wearing me thin After telling myself to give up the struggle for 2 days, sudden solutions appearing....
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I'll grant you that Rajneesh and Muktananda were more "learned" than Warat, who wasn't? Isn't? Inspiring? Unfortunately that's in the eye of the beholder, it's not self-existent. R&M were, apparently, no less "inspiring" to the inspired after they had fallen to the temptation of sex, drugs and abuse of power even to those aware of their fall. According to popular reports Rajneesh openly relished his bad guru status so I'm not sure if he could "fall." I lean to "due to sincere effort have reached levels of
understanding about the human condition and in turn use their experience
and wisdom to guide others on the path" actually being a magical promise. I'm unsure. I appreciate that's not the same thing as saying someone is a divine realised enlightened guru. Back in the 1990s the reality that Buddhist teachers in the West were pretty well all "fallen" was first publicised and since then they just keep falling. Now the scandalous behaviour of monks in Myanmar, Thailand and Korea is even part of the public discourse. However I'm not that interested in the fall of gurus and self-proclaimed enlightened teachers. I'm more interested in the enabling behaviour of those being inspired. Behaviour that is sometimes criminal and in many cases requires self-censorship. It is in these behaviours that followers of M&R were most flagrant and that is why I mentioned them and naturally it is my past behaviour that inspires that interest.
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