|
|
|
Let me start by saying I don't meditate and think it's value is grossly overstated by nearly all it's proponents most of whom claim it has great value because they make money or ego out of it or it's part of their religion. I don't make these judgements because of my personal experience of meditation but because of the experience of people I have known or of the many that are attested to in public discourse. The outcomes of the tens or hundreds of thousands or more of the 60s youth cohort who joined the many groups making new waves then has nearly all turned out unfavourably with barely a Guru, a Rinpoche, a Zen Master, a Pir, a Perfect Master, a Maharishi, a Siddha or any other self-proclaimed spiritual guide not turning out to have feet of clay dirtied by hypocrisy, lies and materialism of a Trumpish level. I don't mean the experience of the chelas has necessarily always been negative but it has certainly not lived up to the hype, a hype which usually promises far less these days than it did 60 years ago when there was no local history or evidence. As far as I can see on short notice Mike Roark is the go to man on this Forum for making positive statements about meditation. It's quite difficult to make positive personal statements about the benefits of long term meditation in yourself without sounding like an arrogant arsehole or what we call in Australia a wanker. I think he avoids these pitfalls though others may differ. At my age I can only imagine that the death of a child or grand-child could make me so depressed that I would try meditation but I'd try it as a long shot. I can no longer picture a situation where a positive reason for meditation could arise in my life. Roark seems to have suffered no ill effects from his practice but who knows what he might have attained or achieved otherwise.  Some Roark Quotes: Personally, I love sitting meditation and trying to cultivate 'mindfulness' during the day, which I have been pretty diligent with for over forty years. These days, I typically sit for an hour or so daily, and besides the clear awareness I get to 'rest in', I find it very helpful, even efficient as a way to re-focus and re-energize and help me be creative as I go through the day. I call it 'defragging the hard drive'. I haven't practiced the 'Knowledge' techniques for decades, BTW. I feel that, rather than engendering disassociation and pathology, continued meditation practice over the long term tends to reorganize the brain in a positive way. It also offers a way to deal with latent psychological issues in a proactive, conscious manner, issues that might otherwise be left unattended but remain in place and guide our behavior and the relationships we form. It is not meditation itself that is scary, the accumulated psychological pathologies we hold inside are. In other words, meditation practice has my whole-hearted vote, not as a panacea, but as a way to reconnect with the fun of being alive. Inner stillness seems to enable inherent, natural intelligence. Also passion for living as it turns out (oddly enough). Us funny little humans that take sooo much credit for everything, as if we really create all that much (except for our suffering and our contributions to to that of others). For myself, I think meditation enables me to sleep less, and also makes my mind more efficient in my complex work and life.When I first sit down, I tend to let my mind 'scroll' to clarify and resolve what to do about the issues at hand if it feels the need, before I clamp down on it. Typically, the things that are bugging this Roark character the most surface first, followed by those in diminishing order. I think the extent that premies and ex-premies have tied their idea of meditation practice to Rawat is a shame, when meditation could be a simple, nourishing and exciting exploration of one's 'inner' world.
|
|
|
|
|
Not sure why you have posted this. Lots of ex-premies meditate just as lots of premies do not mediate because they under protection of the LOTU if they are serving Him.
I remember in 1976, when I moved into Acton ashram, Bob Haywood, the housefather, told me I didn't have to meditate anymore for that very reason. My first delayed drip. Most of the people in that ashram were doing direct service to the family and myself and one or two others had the honour of going to work to support the servants of the Lord. They were doing great service to mankind, like making cushions for Raja & Claudia or having breakfast at local 'community premies' houses or thanking her Majesty's government for sending them money every week.
Yes I know I went off topic of your post, but somehow your post triggered the memory.
Modified by Jethro at Wed, May 10, 2017, 04:25:13
|
|
|
|
I'm just following down the byways of the Forum, familiarising myself and followed Roark's posts back to the past comparing them with Footkisser's and thinking one can appreciate an opposite view (in this case Roark's on meditation) without venom. I could hardly be his devotee when my views on meditation are very different to his.
|
|
|
|
To any potential devotee, Inspired by Bhole Ji, I am in fact becoming a Guru, as you
can see by my exchange with TED in the below thread, and would welcome any potential
devotees to check me out. I’m retooling
my approach though, and will re-enter the market very soon (sorting out a few branding issues). I am thinking launch party down at the Trac (provided TED
gets on board), and start with a bang, maybe giving a very holy discourse called “The
Peace Explosion”, stay tuned. (And TED, if you are reading this, you don’t have to be
limited to CSM, you can also be the CFM (Chief Financial Mahatma), and hold onto the purse strings, but you
may want to think twice about the inherent fiduciary responsibilities, we’ll
talk) I’d like to weigh in on this thread later, have to run
to a meeting now (attorney regarding my not-for-profit org) yours in bliss, Mike
|
|
|
|
Roark I am deeply disappointed in your decision! I thought you were going to join me as a devotee of Bhole Ji, or as we call him these days, Hanslok. And now you say you want to have your own Guruship. How could you do this to me? You say you are retooling your approach, and will re-enter the market very soon after sorting out a few
branding issues. Come on. When is this going to stop? What if Raja Ji claimed
to be “the Guru” too? That would mean all four of the Rawat brothers and you
all claiming to be the one and only Superior Power in Person. This makes no sense. It is truly confusing and demoralizing for all us proper devotees. Please reconsider. I also ask you to re-examine your attempt to get TED on your side. You know full well that TED is totally
into all that “mine, thine, health, wealth,” stuff. He is clearly one of those
“river of bondage to maya” guys. You don’t want to hang with guys like that, when
you can follow Hanslok. You see, there was once this man who really liked a boat and one day decided to steal it, so he went down
to the dock at midnight when it was pitch dark, jumped in, grabbed the oars
and started rowing away. It wasn’t until morning when the sun came up (the light, get it?) that he
noticed that although he had been rowing frantically all night he hadn’t gone
anywhere because he had forgotten to untie the boat from the dock. Roark, I
implore you, untie the boat! Let go of this impossible dream of yours. Okay, let’s get real
for a moment. There are so many advantages to being a devotee of Hanslok.
First, he has all that 5-Hour Energy Drink money so you would probably be able to
get you a discount if you promised to buy in bulk. Second, Hanslok never did any of
that “I am the Lord, no I’m not the Lord, yes I am the Lord” flip-flopping.
Third, he is a first class musician, if you have any doubts about this just
listen to any Blue Aquarius album. And fourth, he is just a really nice family guy.
I particularly liked it in the 70s when he would wear those sequined sparkly
suits. So cool and Vegas. That’s the way a true Guru in the West should dress.
Do you have one of those suits? I don’t think so. So roark, not everyone can be Satguru. Can you imagine the chaos we would have in this world if everyone walked
around wearing a Krishna costume? So please roark, I invite you to reconsider this
reckless pipedream of yours and join me in devotion to Hanslok. There is only
one Perfect Master and his name is Hanslok. I mean, just like Footkisser said, who are we to say that he isn't the Lord. Cling to his feet!
Modified by Steve at Wed, May 10, 2017, 13:37:14
|
|
|
|
Dear Steve, I carefully read your heartfelt post, wow, you dug very deep. Bhole Ji has some great divine qualities, true, but I have a
completely new angle. And I think with some
communication and more than a few beers, we can get you and TED holding hands,
so let’s table that for now (plus we are going to need a place for our own Prem
Nagar, and the Trac may work well). And I wanted to be a bit further along with my presentation
before I spilled the beans, but here's what I’m thinking (at a high-level): We get this pracharty started using ex-premies,
become a 100% guru/devotee-owned spiritual path (with huge incentives like lifetime residual
commissions to bring in new devotees), initially grabbing market share through
the excellent Forum network we have in place, and then looking for new logos (devotees).
Now you might ask, “Why would the premies of the various holy bros listen to a
hate group like us??” Damn good
question, right? Well, we turn this
website into a LOVE GROUP, hateful ex-premies that suddenly begin to shine like
the light of a thousand (erasing all mention of this cunning plan on this site and
in particular the devotee-owned part), and it will be easy to shine, once we
start putting all that money we lost or never made back in our own pockets! The opposition party will all go WTF? How did this happen?? It MUST be some very divine shit!! And come running… So that’s the basic idea, like it?? M Footnote: It may get a little dicey with such a large
conspiracy, so we will need some really tight legal docs for the D-Class
shareholders to sign (including lifetime Non-circumvention / Not-Competition
Agreements, along with a very strong Non-Solicitation clause to avoid break-out groups. I am sure Marianne can put this together.
|
|
|
|
Holy smoke there
roark, you absolutely have come up with a new angle! Brilliant! A 100%
guru/devotee-owned spiritual path with huge incentives like lifetime residual commissions
for bringing in new people. And it’s sneaky too, particularly the part about us
pretending not to be in a hate group. Above all though, I love the idea of putting
all that money we lost or never made into back our own pockets! So, yeah, I like it! Why
should Hanslok get all the perks? Why can’t I have a Watkins Glen Gray Metallic
2017 Corvette Stingray? Hell, I deserve it. All those years of meditation
should count for something. I’m truly flabbergasted. I don’t know how you did it
roark, but you really have me rethinking my switch over to Hanslok. I am going
to lay low for awhile and do some soul searching. I’ll get back to you on this.
Modified by Steve at Wed, May 10, 2017, 21:20:32
|
|
|
|
Fantastic, Steve! Think about it, and yes, you do deserve it!
OK, now I am also thinking about a meditation app, like maybe herdspace.com, and a spiritual operating system, maybe the 'cosmic platform'? Have to think more about this.
And let's look at rolling up some spiritual paths with aging gurus that have lost their sex drive and ready for a good exit, buying them out with them assigning their lineage to us? We'll probably have to raise capital for this, buy some spiritual marketshare before we get on a glide path to cash flow positive. How would you feel about heading up our Investor Relations group?
M
|
|
|
|
Steve, Listen, we have to shift gears here. As lila goes, I get a knock on the door yesterday and guess who? Yes, his Bholeness and RJ, wanting to “talk”. I had my intern devotee make up some chai and
we sat down. They both looked pretty agitated, and RJ did all of the
talking, and the BJ stared at the cat and cracked his knuckles. They acutely recognized the competitive pressure I
was bringing to their marketplace, came with their check book and we came to a
deal, and looks like I will not be giving any darshan anytime soon. I mean, it’s not FU money, but it IS ten
figures (and he threw in some 5-hour and some cool dhotis he grew out of). It is just as well for me, as my wife has been giving a
constant ration of shit over the whole thing (especially about my interns), and
every time I say something boneheaded, she’ll say something like “OK then, Mr.
Guru!”, and I getting a little sick of it. So my advice to you stick with the Bholeone (although personally, he did
nothing to dissuade me of my suspicion that he’s the ‘Chauncey Gardener‘ of
Gurus, whatever), and if you ever want run with my Guru ideas, I’d be happy to help
you, set you up with some marketing slicks and such.
I was cooking up some great digital enlightenment products, like a SaaS
offer: “Satsang as a Service” and others, and will be happy to let you use these too (for a
fee). Next time you get down to my neck of the woods, give me a
ring and you can grab some darshan with me. (just kidding!, I am NOT going to
be the Guru! (at least for five years when my Non-Compete wraps up)). Yours in divine truth, Mike
|
|
|
|
... he’s the ‘Chauncey Gardener‘ of Gurus
Laughing....excellent...I like that...such a terribly fitting epithet, though I never much knew this musical incarnation of Siva and 24-hour-energy benefactee except for being there to see his full-suit sequined magnificence that time, never knew him as Mike apparantly now does and wrangles excellent deals with.
...As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden... There will be growth in the spring.
What depth and venerable intellect has Mike blessed be his Roarkiness the Tycooni Lama.
Modified by tarvuist at Fri, May 12, 2017, 17:00:51
|
|
|
|
I also do not meditate. I do pray however. I do a lot of things, art therapy, I could go on and on... In general housework can be one of the more enlightening tasks in life. I have no issue with people in or out of the cult being 'like me'. It's taken me a while but I understand that is foolishness on my part; a) no one IS and b) I have a lot to learn from others If someone here is exposing their inner processes, I don't believe it's so they can be torn down and reassembled in accordance with how I operate. I believe we all have a fundamental need to be heard. I think that is one of the reasons for the success of this forum. Under the subjugation of the ji I barely could hear myself from the din of cognitive dissonance. It's therefore important for me to write as it comes up. I have posted here because I am heard. It's healing. If I'm heard I can be vulnerable, maybe shift my point of view from blame to seeing what was missing from my side. Or visa versa if that's the balance things must take, if I'm just self flagellating out of habitual surrender to the wrong thing.
If I'm not heard , I might defend my position in an effort to be understood. That position might be just a stepping stone in a long line of stones to step on to get me across the divide. It may take on unnecessary importance. These are some of the dynamics I notice in my own communications. So there will be those that say i want to judge those that make judgements but that isn't so. I make judgements all day every day,the conclusion seems to rest in feeling at peace for want of a better word. I will wrestle with a thought until I am at peace with it. Some peoples actions or decisions upset me. I can only be at peace with that if I understand their free will, and my lack of authority or inclination to change that. There's a boundary of course a Suzie that will kick ass on the other side of there but as far as expressing oneself in an environment as unique as this one it behoves me to suspend my judgements of what people think or say or do and just let them be. we've all been through a lot
|
|
|
|
"..but as far as expressing oneself in an environment as unique as this one it behoves me to suspend my judgements of what people think or say or do and just let them be."
Most respectfully, Suzy, I have to disagree.  see right there you have a problem, is it alright for me to disagree with not disagreeing?
I do disagree, on several counts.
First of should I come here and start talking about this wonderful yoga teacher and how I got inspired to reconnect with my breath and how good it feels to help world peace by working on the meditation retreat he is building in the hills I hope someone would say something.
second - this is the forum, Suzy! formed by and for exiting premies. We're so lucky to have it. It's a rare spot in the world, where you can safely get some feedback while unpacking the box and sorting it.
third - why stifle that? I love the way 13 says judge away, it's good for you!
The idea of suspending judgement is a huge and interesting topic. I am getting really full of thoughts about it so I will give up on writing something sensible right now. but wouldn't you like not so much to suspend judgement as open it up and not have it offended against but just allowed to be?
|
|
|
|
Dear Lesley, Thanks for your engagement and the respect. I have no problem with your disagreement Of course we all must disagree and I would probably try to persuade you to stick with helping world peace in your own backyard instead of attending the meditation retreat. Only because over time we have started to get to know one another and I care. Otherwise I question myself if it is really my businessI guess I feel it is an intimacy to share experiences on here. And an intimacy to read here. The whole forum has a closeness about it Through love and living I've found manners and respect to be the things that are easily dismissed at times when they are often more necessary. Sustenance of connections in my view requires more manners and respect than we are used to giving or receiving.
Even when dealing with abusive narcs who are not to be messed with, one of my most effective communication tools so far has been extreme manners. I mean next level, I rack it up a notch on purpose. No is still most definitely and emphatically no and I disagree is still I disagree and hopefully without any back handed swipes at their character I try to outline why. There might be an entire spectrum of judgement going on at the time in me, I might have several buttons pushed at once but from experience and hard knocks i have noticed manners works! and if I cannot muster respect I find courtesy works just as well. If only I could always remember that when it comes to those that matter most to me. It is something I make a concerted effort towards.
Communication is a miracle as far as I'm concerned. I marvel that we do it at all, or that it is so important to us, every day. Yet we take hardly any time to hone our skills when it can be one of the things that can make or break a situation. It's under the dominion of our free will.I think it's the beginning of our free will. It's our voices, needing to be heard
Having said that I spend more and more time alone lately. I'm attending to the art of listening to nature, each tree has it's own song I was reading today, according to the drip patterns and winds and birds accompanying. The whole of life is communicating in a cadence of love and beauty in some moments. I like that. I try and hold that space, remind myself that we are all created equal, it helps me to accept the ways things are communicated between people, and between me and other people often times imperfectly. When it's an intimacy shared I try to suspend my judgments, not to say they don't arrive, but I question my right at that point, because if I want to hear someone try to share something of heart, even though the cultural references or the context, the vocabulary, the language or the mannerisms might even grate on me, my buttons might be pushed (heaven help us) even though any or all of that may be going on for a second in me I may want to quell my reactions for a moment (stifle if you like) why? Because I want to feel my whole self listening first. It's not something I've always done, I'm still honing the skills but I have noticed most of my judgments are largely superficial, unless considered. I found it difficult to read the entire email of footkisser (yes, unfortunate name choice) all the way through at one sitting. I needed time to assimilate what he was saying behind what he was saying. Not every situation calls for suspending judgement of course but it is a requirement of listening. There is a whole other geo /political argument that I don't find as interesting or as interpersonal relating, which others are much better at. To me communication is a miracle in it's own right and is something everyone pretty much takes for granted.
In the beginning was the Word
|
|
|
|
thanks Suzy, nice post. and a lot to agree about.
well, as Roark pointed out down the page, we do have these urges - we're a rude and thrusting lot really, so good manners and respect, being cooperative goes very nicely alongside it.
I have the same feeling - all are equal, wanting to be considerate - it's a genuine and obviously sensible way of being - lebensraum is the german word. room to live. but if my last tenant taught me anything it is to recognise how quickly and efficiently that can be taken advantage of and be careful.
I could not agree more (and I thought that was a lovely phrase of yours), I want to feel my whole self listening first.
Modified by lesley at Fri, May 12, 2017, 21:52:05
|
|
|
|
Yes it's a fine balance sometimes isn't it and one that at times you have to be prepared to be suddenly a warrior in the face of narc antics. They seem to accept no responsibility, also they don't listen, practically ever. Not to a person anyway,just to their own agendas, if they pick up something they can use against you, that's the bit they will hear. Did you see the clip of the dildo in the face I posted the link above. I laughed as I imagined me doing that to the lard of the universe, practically worth the front seat ticket...
|
|
|
|
okay so I just watched the video you linked to, that was very funny, another tick for a New Zealand politician, wasn't he cool under fire!
Not sure why the comedian has been paying out on their last prime minister - seemed to me to be in the top 1% of prime ministers in the world. Maybe I was naive. But I have been impressed with the way New Zealand has handled itself - saying no to the nuclear ships in their harbours and saying yes to quality food production. I think they're still a bit behind the rest of the world, like Tasmania.
|
|
|
|
I've noticed that you're relatively new here. Would you care to tell us a bit about yourself and your involvement in the cult, as well as your journey out, if it applies?
This forum doesn't make a statement about meditation being bad or good. People do have various opinions on the subject and some people still use the Knowledge techs. (I don't know why, but each to his own choice.) That's a joke.
I don't use the knowledge techniques, but I do try to be conscious of when I am breathing and when I am holding my breath. People tend to hold their breath when anxious. I do deep breathing techniques to help myself relax, but it's not what I would call a "practice" of meditation.
So. Each to his/her own! Tell us about yourself!
Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, May 10, 2017, 14:22:47
|
|
|
|
I'm not as nice as Jasper though I was a lot nicer when I was younger. I'm not as smart as Roark though I'm a lot smarter than I was in 1973. I'm more level-headed than FK and probably always was. I don't understand these TED Farkel references.
I first saw something about DLM (not in the media) when coming out of the movies where a double header was playing with a movie about the great rock and rollers - Little Richard, Chuck Berry, etc and Godspell. Being religious though non-Christian I was surprisingly moved by Godspell and came out singing "Day by day, day by day, Oh dear Lord three things I pray ..." but under my breath. There was a poster on the bus shed across the road saying something like "I Can Show You God!" It was very poorly designed but well pasted. I came to understand that dichotomy later. "Show you God? That would be nice," I thought "To see Thee more clearly ..." However I didn't jaunt off to satsang until later when a friend suggested it.
When we first came to satsang in the 70s we had 2 very young children and would alternate our time in the nursery and in the hall - never leaving our kids alone. We noticed that few fathers spent time in the nursery as they had "more important service." There were some mothers who left their children alone, often crying, and there were more whose children were always crying because their mothers believed they needed to fast or eat a 100% vegan diet and they were always hungry. Straightaway we could see that down at the back, DLM was not as shiny as up at the front.
We could come early to settle the children and the nursery also doubled as an informal "satsang to the troubled" area. There always seemed to be some premies emotionally troubled, relationship break-ups, back-sliding, using drugs or crazy (slightly or more so) and other premies would be giving one on one, heart-to-heart, full-eye contact, tongue-back-in-mouth (but not when they were talking) satsang to them. There were more premies requiring this type of satsang than giving it.
With hindsight we should have said "Let's get out of here and stay out. This Knowledge is not doing what it's claimed it can do. Our normal wide range of friends, family and acquaintances are far more together than this lot." In decades of associating with premies I never knew this percentage to change and those people in need of help stayed in need of help and the helpers remained helpers though they lost at least some of their verve and most of both groups disappeared over time.
Our problem was that we concentrated on the inspiring, the beautiful premies, the dedicated and the shining eyes even though these were a minority. We could see no direct link between those with administrative authority in DLM and those with (for want of a better word) spiritual authority, they weren't necessarily the same people. There was more than one hierarchy. We concentrated (oh yes we did a lot of concentration) on those premies who inspired us and as we initially had come to satsang without any major problems we enjoyed the ride for a few years and overlooked, excused, explained away and ignored the obvious fact that DLM was not what it claimed to be or what we hoped. We should never have become involved and we should have left but once we were both involved we could never openly discuss our fears, our doubts and our disagreements. She loved darshan and all the excitement. I actually saw him in darshan as he really was. I don't mean in a high falutin' way but just as you'd judge any phony. This was a problem and for a time I would become one of the premies needing one-on-one satsang. Also, there wasn't a lot of time with nightly satsang, 2 hours meditation, work and toddlers and there were some shocks along the way that we basically ignored.
He got married at 14 to a 30 year old woman. I exaggerate but surely not as much as those premies who got up in satsang and said they truly thought this was a wonderful Lila that showed Maharaji was really marrying all of us. Mata Ji, the Divine Mother, disowned him on April Fools Day. Wow. Try to understand the cosmic ironies in that. Maybe it was what all the premies kept talking about - a Lila. Why were all the Lilas bad? Why weren't there lilas where Guru Mahahaj Ji donated his wealth to the poor in Bihar? Why weren't there lilas where droughts were broken when Guru Maharaj Ji gave satsang? Why did Lilas always have to excuse poor behaviour rather than exalt miracles? Time passed. The ashrams closed. But everyone in the ashrams had shining eyes and loved dedicating their lives to Guru Maharaj Ji, didn't they?
As time went on my wife and I did discuss our disagreements ie we argued. Decades later, long divorced, the once great divisions between devotion/non-attachment, meditation/television, dedication/security, never delay in attending satsang/children come first, festivals/mortgage are forgotten with only a residue of bitterness. It was the extreme dedication of a few premies and, I'm ashamed to say, my own recklessness that got us involved in DLM against all common sense. Eventually I began to see premies in a clearer light and realised the Knowledge was going nowhere.
Still I've been surprised at the later twists and turns and debacles that the renamed Prem Rawat has produced but I'm pretty sure if we met he'd point out that he's got the expensive clothes, the expensive cars, the expensive jet plane and a TV in every toilet.
My aunt says the fish rots from the head, she was a restaurateur.
|
|
|
|
Yet another take on cult involvement. Nicely written, lots to like, but 'badly designed, nicely pasted' has stuck with me like an echoing zen koan. Nice to meet you.
|
|
|
|
Hi Rawatcher,
Thank you for your intro. Glad to have your voice here. Your coming to the ji sounds a little like mine.
I was living in West Philadelphia and going to art school in Center City. Sometimes I would hitch a ride to school. I got picked up by some premies and they had a bunch of flyers strewn across the back seat. I picked one up and looked at it. One guy asked me if I knew who that was. I said, "He's the one that says he's God." "Well, no, he is ....." I became captivated by the ji's smile and then the car became very quiet. The guy said softly, "He can see you looking at him." I said yes and it was time for me to get out of the car.
A month or so later I went to see the ji and I was hooked. June 4 1972.
Best,
Karen Kirschbaum
|
|
|
|
thanks for the post, and some good points - why was lila always an explanation for his poor behaviour!
excuse my curiosity but I am wondering if you are describing Wentworth Ave days. The nursery there was very much a part of the scene. Back of stage scene I should say. Wasn't it awful the way parents were made to feel guilty for having children. Suddenly they were just noisy distractions. What a lila that was. In the early days it was much more in line with hippy ideals and good food and looking after the children as well as could be mattered.
|
|
|
|
You mean Wentworth Avenue wasn't the early days? I had no idea we were supposed to be guilty as we already had kids and no-one ever said anything.
|
|
|
|
I arrived in Australia in 1975 in time for the program at the opera house and it was going then and I don't know how long it had been going before but there was another place, Riley St maybe? before it.
so Wentworth Ave was late early days for me. I remember lots of activity round the nursery and lots of interest in health food, alternative medicine and education, all that stuff.
And I remember the edict coming to close the nursery - too noisy and distracting for the great and glorious satsang going on in the next room.
and not to bring children to events, goodness knows at least Jesus said suffer little children to come unto me, or was that someone else who wrote it but anyway why should children be excluded from the presence of the living lord?
so I think largely the premies brushed it off as falling into that huge laundry basket of stuff labelled 'done by the honchos who get in the way of Maharaji but if he knew what was happening he'd change it'
Closing the nursery caused a lot of disappointment, particularly for those who had worked hard to make good facilities, disgruntlement on behalf of tired overworked parents and it took a while to happen.
It was also probably a good thing - no cult children slave gangs at least.
|
|
|
|
In 1975 we weren't in Sydney. Later there was satsang in William St (?) and there was a nursery again but I don't recall quite so much anguish by the late 70's, at least not in the nursery.
|
|
|
|
Did I say anguish? personally I like to save a word like that for the times it's needed.
yes William St. that is where I am thinking of too, you're right - Wentworth Ave was NHQ I think. I worked there for a bit. Went to satsang in William St from 1975 to 1981.
From there up to Byron Shire where I live to this day.
|
|
|
|
Wentworth Avenue was the early days before William St. There were 3 floors connected by a narrow staircase with the Nursery/Anguish Diminishment Room up top. Parking in the dark and going to satsang through the unlit back alleys was scary. Apparently there was an even earlier incarnation of DLM at that bespectacled British honcho's squat (has he died?) in an even more God-forsaken suburb that now costs $1 million per square foot at auction. I wasn't ever there but the gossip was that DLM was just another scungy hippie dope pad until Faith arrived and put her foot, her mop and her beragon down.
|
|
|
|
Rawatcher, when you won't give your name why would you mention other people by name?
|
|
|
|
F____ No_Surname (isn't that the only name I mentioned?) was a very public premie who was not only one of the major powers in OzDLM but even appeared on television promoting GMJ and the only people who know to whom I am referring to are people who know to whom I am referring. In the great scheme of things it might be that cleaning up and getting DLM off the ground in Australia is an unforgiveable sin but from my perspective it shows a person to be respected despite her delusions about the Lord of the Universe.
|
|
|
|
yeah okay, public figures in cult world, both of them personally worthy of respect. And both people I am fond of.
Modified by lesley at Sat, May 13, 2017, 17:03:31
|
|
|
|
Thanks for your post. It helps to get to know new people here.
Cynthia
|
|
|
|
Hey Rawatcher, I’ve been enjoying your comments, and although I don’t speak
Australian, don’t write me off as a non-wanker just yet (pretty sure I’m no
wankee). One thing that deepened my own interest in navel gazing was
a spate of articles in the Science Times section of the NY Times many years
back regarding advances in brain mapping, neuroscience, cognitive science and
artificial intelligence. Inspired by
these, I started to read a lot in that vein, and also started to make
interesting self-observations during my ‘meditation practice’. Like when mental activity slowed and then as
it returned to ‘normal’, it became easier to see distinctions in what I noticed
and was manufactured in my brain. For example
when I stop listening (hearing whatever noise was around me), that I’ve stopped
consciously listening is not taken note of (because if I noticed it stopped,
then I would go back to listening).
However, after I had stopped listening for a while, then when I started
to notice noise again as I started to come back to ‘normal’, busy awareness, I
was able to take note that it had reoccurred.
So whilst quieting down as different types of sensations, thoughts and
feelings dropped away, these reductions went unnoticed. But if I was quiet
enough, I could notice these things as they reappeared, and as distinct occurrences. The tie-in to brain science had to do with how my
subjective mental perceptions were saying hello to the way distinctly different
experiences finally getting charted and biologically understood by using new
non-invasive technologies like advanced MRI, PET and such; and actually seeing
the bio-electro-mechanics of feelings Vs. thoughts, or of one feeling vs.
another. It is hard to describe, but
there started to become more precision in how I saw my own functioning, and I
became a bit more able to pinpoint thoughts and feelings and how these came to
exist, the connection of certain memories with certain feelings and such. And as so my subjective ‘meditation’ practice
became better informed by brain mapping science, a little more objective
precision was added to help sort out my Jungian bodymind mash up. Getting more deeply in touch with my lab-rat self forced
me to rethink my inner workings, and develop a more integral map of what it is
that comprises ‘me’. I extrapolated this
‘map’ into an inventory for every component of my life, which then helped me to
assess my experiences, behavior, roles, relationships and my person (and, I started
to come up with long, weird, Germanic sentences like: Certain basic evolutionary urges led to the creation of the human
endowed with distinct, naturally occurring human 'processes', which in turn
manifest in human activity in action and as interaction as 'roles'. Herein, the 'persona' is the collective
structure of embedded tendencies formed by the cumulative experience of these
processes in combination with the dynamics created by the experience of
cumulative behavior. The persona is the
integrated, cumulative and collective assembly of structures established via
both the subjective inner and the observable exterior experiential data base
and is distinct from the processes and the roles that occur in the present time
continuum. To evolve and thus change the
persona requires both internal and external actions that focus on potentials,
which in turn has a direct effect on the structures, which in turn then
modifies both the experience of one's processes as well as the actualized
actions and roles.) I think this process also served to further distance me
from a religious or mystical view of meditation, instead seeing it more as a
study of the mechanics of consciousness. Somewhere in this process, any linkage of my
internal experience to GMJ was completely severed, and I found actually that
his meditation techniques (although not that bad as techniques go IMHO), became
an impediment to going ‘deeper’, although it did take some time to disengage my
Knowledge meditation habits. But there remains delightful mystery
as to what happens when I meditate, like what exactly does happen that I sit
down in one state of mind, and get up some time later inexplicably joyful and
more creative. But essentially, this is the way I see it (and note that my own semantics are separating the meaning of consciousness from awareness): There is
something looking out from behind our eyes, and this ‘something’ has a quality
of awareness, and although continually involved in the pageant of consciousness
during the waking state, awareness does not have the ability to see itself, in
the same way the eye cannot see itself.
Even in a mirror (which is as close as it will come to seeing itself),
the eye can only see an image of itself.
Awareness is like this, cannot see itself, or even experience itself,
inasmuch as ‘experience’ requires two things, the experiencer plus that which
is experienced. Awareness itself is
monolithic. Given that it cannot see nor
experience nor recognize nor remember itself, the best it can do to know itself
is somehow ‘rest ‘ in itself. Therein
lies the rub. I think that awareness always trying to but unable to ‘know’
itself. So there is this pervasive sense
of ‘urge’ that sets in, urge to grow, urge to know, urge to experience, urge to
do, urge for all these specific things, all rooted in this pervasive sense of urge. ‘Urge’ is for something we are not or do not
have, for somewhere we are not, for some time past or future. But if still enough, this urge goes away, or at least
unnoticed. And I would say the feeling
of this is quite extraordinary. You make the excellent point of “but
who knows what he might have attained or achieved otherwise”, and I have no
answer for that. Mike
|
|
|
|
Roark, You could call your new teachings "Meditation, Spiritual Masturbation for the Masses".
Modified by swimming free at Wed, May 10, 2017, 19:17:51
|
|
|
|
Howdy
You talking about my 100% guru/devotee-owned spiritual path??
M
|
|
|
|
That must be the one. Did I carelessly post on the wrong thread?
|
|
|
|
LOL, I guess, given the abyssal lack of any mass market for the other.
|
|
|
|
I'm not as reckless as I once was so I'll read your post carefully before commenting but I do want to thank you for posting this snippet from an old Indian propagation booklet that I found down your posting path. Unfortunately the image didn't paste over but that wonderful title: Shri Sant Ji Maharaj The World Honour Monk will warm my heart for at least today
THE GREAT MASTER
Balyogeshwar Param Hans Sadgurudev
SH. SANTJI Maharaj
The World Honour Monk
Guru Maharaj Ji 14, YEARS OLD Guru Maharaj Ji is the storehouse of peace and happiness and He has come to Bestow a gift, the greatest Treasure, upon humanity. He has manifested in this world to establish peace and happiness by
revealing directly the absolute pure consciousness of Divine Light,
Divine Music and unspeakable Unfathomable true name of God within us ...
the vibration of life. Guru Maharaj Ji is the giver of knowledge, All you do is to ask with sincerity of heart and you will receive, Guru Maharaj Ji's knowledge will always be free of charge because it is "Truth." HE PREACHES Why are you existing in this world ? What is your aim for living ? There is a cause, a reason for the life in this universe. You have to know it. Why do you want love ? Why do you want to know what love is ? Why do you exist ? What is the Word in the bible ? I have come to give you the same Word. You are like a useless creature coming to enjoy a party where you do
not have any friends, and you do not know why you are there. You need
someone to show you, to tell you why you are there and why you are
invited You could say I'm your best friend. You must have an aim.
Without knowing your soul there is no aim and true knowledge of your
soul comes only from a perfect master. If you cannot actually see God,
then for you God does not exist. If I told you an elephant was 2 inches high, would you believe me ?
Or, if I told you an ant was 7 feet tall, would you believe me ? But if I
showed you, you would have to believe.
|
|
|
|
At last someone who understands
|
|
|
|
With computers I've found a quick and dirty fix is a good start. So I'll start quick and stop when I'm getting dirty. I assumed from reading your earlier posts that our attitudes/ideas
would diverge but only after reading that last post do I understand how
far. I'd use the word 'holistic' in the philosophic sense to define my
view of consciousness even though the word's meaning has been debased.
Simply put (not that I have many opportunities to put it to anyone) I
see personal consciousness as a wonderful construct created by the
gestalt me and that it tags along always a bit behind the times and
seeing only a bit of the picture sort of like much of our visual field
is constructed rather than "seen." Despite the wishes of seers and
meditators for umpteen generations there has never been a method for
humans to directly access the underlying software-hardware unity and
never can be though we can get hints at it's workings through emotion,
intuition and other faint glimmers though unfortunately these are
notoriously if not totally unreliable. Techniques such as brain mapping
may provide impersonal insight into how we "work" but so far I have to
reserve judgement as to whether they will have any influence on
individuals in the future. Furthermore I think emotion is a far more important driver of our
life than reason, intelligence and logic though I generally live as if
these are important and enjoy their function. Carrying on from this view
is the idea that attempting to gain more control or understanding of my
deep workings may well be counter-productive and even if driven by my
hidden and hopefully better self the results would not warrant the time
and effort. To understand much of your post I would have need to continue
meditation 30 years ago but I'll take a stab at your more common
statements. It could be argued (though I won't) that you have just
replaced the vocabulary of Indian spirituality as you've known it with
one based upon recent research. "And as so my subjective ‘meditation’ practice became better informed by brain mapping science"
I don't see how this can have any real meaning unless you're actually
hooked up to and observing a personal brain mapper while meditating. I see no reason to wonder "what exactly does happen that I sit down in one state of mind, and get up some time later inexplicably joyful and more creative"
as this is the default human condition. Rest of any form, exercise of
any form provides this delightful result and it is so certain that it is
virtually never discussed or questioned. OT: I'm a hard-ass in some
ways and think most of the modern human problems caused by ease and
prosperity could be solved by enforced exercise of a reasonable
duration. There is something looking out from behind our eyes, and this
‘something’ has a quality of awareness, and although continually
involved in the pageant of consciousness during the waking state,
awareness does not have the ability to see itself - This could be a
more metaphorical way of saying there is no method for humans to
directly access their underlying being but your vocabulary is that of
spirituality and probably carries more connotations than my balder
statements. there is this pervasive sense of ‘urge’ that sets in, urge to
grow, urge to know, urge to experience, urge to do, urge for all these
specific things
I don't think "awareness always trying to but unable to ‘know’ itself"
is an accurate explanation for the root of human activities but is a
product of your long term interest in meditation, consciousness, etc.
Just because Prem Rawat could repeat and repeat and repeat that sentence
with 'thirst' replacing 'urge' does not mean it's untrue but tends to
that direction. Earlier I went back through your posts. Your post of 30/5/2015: I appreciate the simple joy you take in daily life, in the little
things (as do I as well) but do you think that all of that time you
spent on your ass did not contribute the that nice place you are now?
I can't speak for Lakeshore who spent 20 more years on his ass than I
did but a lot of waves have washed up on the beach since last I sat and I
don't think it has much direct input now. You were splitting hairs down to electron microscope level: "So
what is actually selfless and non-narcissistic, anyway, when 'selfless'
deeds get compensated by some form of return, even if it takes the form
of feeling better about one's self." Selfless actions are defined as
those in which the only possible compensation is feeling better about
oneself though this reward is not guaranteed especially if you start
thinking too much about how selfish you are trying to be selfless."
though the next day you moved back into the gray on selflessness. and using extreme behaviour as the norm All life forms compete for air (its infinite), for space (there's
more than we can use), for food (not anyone who reads this Forum). We
kill and eat each other, step on each other, sacrifice others to get
what we want. ONLY IF NECESSARY Apprehending oneself as just simple 'being' takes the edge off all of this wanting and competing.
Now I guess we're judging from our own experience and you're probably a
lot more competitive than I am but "all this" seems to grossly
over-estimate the wanting and competing in the comfortable and
co-operative lives of most of us. Even the most competitive life is
>99% co-operation. 31/5/2015
It's been years (maybe 10) since I looked into current trends in the
"spiritual scene" but at the time I thought the greatest bullshit
artists were the non-dualists who were either pissing in each others'
pockets (I really don't understand the derivation of this charming
slang) or back-biting each other or claiming a recognition of their
state from some supposed authority. How did I become so cynical about
this? 50 years of intense interest and involvement in the subject and
it's fashions and it's scandals. I began naively and ended up kicked
into shape by reality (I don't mean just DLM). I see I'm wearing out my goodwill so I'll stop.
|
|
|
|
Hey Rawather, You dug into this, I appreciate your interest and enjoy the errant challenges. By some of your responses, I do think you
have some things taken out of context, and maybe some misinterpretations of
what I have written as well as my underlying feelings.
And it’s tough getting on the same page reading snippets of
communication, always much better talking in person (maybe there is a way we
could connect on email?). And I am about to have a couple of weeks of
planes, trains and automobiles, and will likely fade away from the Forum for a
spell (Lesley and Cynthia may be relieved to hear). I think the real punchline in what I express here is about decoupling self-exploration
from premiedom. I think that what
happened to so many of us during that time was very powerful, and while I
acknowledge a positive side, it produced some deeply-held emotionally-laden
inner conflicts, even ‘traumatic’. The interesting “Narcissistic Victim
Syndrome’ article and thread that Jasper brought in below is about PTSD at the
hands of narcissists like GMJ, and also discusses just how deeply-held this phenomena
can be, the dramatic effects of it and the difficulty in diagnosis and treatment. This Forum serves a purpose to help decouple
us from the drivers of negative psychological effects, starting by pointing out
the bullshit. When you can see something
clearly, you can deal with it more effectively.
If you cannot clearly recognize how emotions are linked to memories and
ideas, the process of getting healthy is a little murkier. Generally, I see health as keeping things flowing and in balance, and pathology as things
blocking up. Blood flowing is good (not
too much, not too little), digestive movement is good (not too fast, not too
slow), and so forth. Things get blocked,
health deteriorates, too much blockage, we die.
The same thing with our ‘psycho-emotional’ body; and traumas, both major
and minor are like blockages, affecting things downstream and throwing things
out of whack. I tend to feel that if someone really understands something, they can articulate
it. But in dealing with the subjective
nature of our inner stuff, combined with the poor vocabulary available in the
English language (a particularly anemic language for inner workings),
communicating this stuff gets mostly lost on translation. What is was trying to describe in my last
post if my level-best attempt at describing what I understand. What I refer to as ‘brain mapping’ has added
to the available semantics, and provided some color for me when I come across
stuff that is locked into my psycho-emotional ecosystem that is not only
uncomfortable, but driving my behavior without me really seeing it when it
happens. My own path has a lot to do
with trying root out the crap still stuck to my pipes and blocking the natural flow. But to scrape off the crap, you first have to see it, know where it is and get at it. Whatever can aid precision in ‘getting at’
this stuff I think is helpful. Brain mapping is based on biology, particularly neuroscience: the circuitry, the
chemical makeup of neurotransmitters, the brain’s interface with sensation and
feeling, the electromagnetic impulses inherent in experience, etc etc etc. Really the biology of our experience: what is
physically happening when we smell a rose (like the 45 +/- molecules that lodge
in the cilia of our olfactory gland within a certain fraction of a second that
are strong enough to prompt a neurological response that goes from here to here,
and then to there, and so forth) while we are ‘smelling’ the rose. Brain mapping is not just generalities
regarding the part of the brain where certain stuff is stored and processed. Without looking at the chicken/egg side of
this, I am using the words ‘brain mapping’ to describe the concurrent physical,
observable side of everything that occurs in consciousness. There is no body separate from mind. There is the ‘bodymind’. My "urge" thang could also be seen as a redux of a portion of the four noble
truths of Buddhism, paraphrased: 1. There is suffering, 2. Suffering comes from
‘wanting’ (craving, desire, similar words), 3. If you get rid of wanting, you
thus get rid of suffering, and 4. There is a way to do that (‘Buddhism’). In a way, I’ve just replaced ‘wanting’ (and
the other available words) with the sense of ‘urge’. And I do not think of this ‘urge’ as being
something negative, just acknowledging its existence, but also see how respite
from this most basic ‘urge’ can bring relief, even if temporary, and even
bliss. Here are a few other comments in response to what you have written. I try to avoid spiritual and religious jargon (towards a ‘holistic’ perspective). I use the ‘seen’ aspect as an example for any form of perception. I don't disagree that emotion is the important driver, and is actually the key
focus in my studies. I'm not seeing ‘wet taps’ on the horizon any time soon, but I still see study,
discrimination and analysis as a valuable tool to understand our psychological
makeup. What I experience in meditation is far more than the effect of resting, which I am
also well-acquainted with. My rant about the nature of what is selfless was trying to dig into underlying
mechanics of popular thought on the subject. One interesting thing about the Forum for me is that it is a way for me to put my
thoughts out there to some really smart folks, sometimes getting my ass handed
to me and sometimes getting more insightful input. If I don’t put it out there, I don’t get
corrected. Another thing, I'm curious about who is reading this stuff. Like when viewership goes over 200 on a particular
post, and maybe only 10 people chime in. Like,
who are those readers? I’d love to see
what all of those folks have to say.
Maybe they are just smarter than us here rolling around on the ground; them
eye-rolling, shaking their heads and murmuring “poor things”?? M
Modified by roark at Thu, May 11, 2017, 10:56:48
|
|
|
|
And I am about to have a couple of weeks of planes, trains and automobiles, and will likely fade away from the Forum for a spell (Lesley and Cynthia may be relieved to hear).
Not at all. Live and learn, eh?
Cynthia
|
|
|
|
Ditto to what Cynthia said
but I will add I think self awareness is a process on automatic. Not much you can do about it, it's just happening. I think there's lots of interaction involved and it's like a flower bud unfolding - no way to change the time line. It is only as we physically mature we are able to become more aware.
|
|
|
|
Modified by OTS at Thu, May 11, 2017, 20:50:31
|
|
|
|
Just came across this....
|
|
|
|
Love it. Happy Birthday on turning 65.
|
|
|
|
Can we know what the Shadow knows? The Perfect One. The Perfect Shadow. Can we comprehend the Perfect Shadow? It surpasseth our understanding. Can the eye see itself? Can the ear hear itself? Can the nose . . . er, I think that's enough. A shady nook
|
|
|
