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Hi Ocker, Good post. I think many of the really dedicated premies ended up here. How many of us were ready to "take a bullet" for him. How many of us sacrificed so much of our lives for him. We would have cut off our right(or left) arms for him. He had a pretty good sized army of devotees willing to do anything for him. Look at DECCA. How many premies permanently sacrificed their health for his boondoggle jet. We had faith in him. HE DIDN'T HAVE FAITH IN US! He is the one that got in his "mind" and betrayed US, his "lovers." He is the one that didn't fulfill his promise - his promise to bring peace to the world. His promise to shelter his devotees. His promise to be the incarnation of whatever he was supposed to be the incarnation of - all 64 powers. He is the one that failed and fell into greed, addiction, predatory sex, and every vice known to man. Instead of being the incarnation of a higher love, he is the very embodiment of the 7 deadly sins! Prem, if you ever read any of these posts, I am sorry I ever gave my heart to you. You didn't deserve it. I loved you once. I surrendered my self on the deepest level possible only to have my self rejected and thrown out after you used up what ever you were after. I WAS sincere. I WAS dedicated. I wasn't the only one. You didn't deserve us. You are not fit to tie our shoes. Karen Kirschbaum Time and the river of life I searched the forest for the fine palace Where You first gave Your love to me Either it has become a barren wasteland Or I know not the way there I pleaded my case with Time That I cannot live in this desert alone He laughed quietly and walked away Taking even the memory of Your touch Beyond my reach Maybe You will come back and make my heart Your home again Building it tall and strong with Your Name But I don’t know, the river of life Runs so fast and I am quickly growing older Oh, if I could only find You We would dissolve time by our sweet love And the river of life would start at our door
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... before they Bleed to Death!! Well Said Karen. Yake Care - kindest - john
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Yes, most premies are slack arses with respect to being premies, slow moving elephants that fart even. That one cuts both ways because most premies are slack arses as premies, and Prem Rawat just can't seem to get his hands on those few dedicated premies that he needs to make a difference. That's probably why he's going after young people. Every lifer wants to be counted among the few, and sometimes you see those fleeting, flailing attempts, but it's an impossible and hopeless challenge because it's diametrically opposed to honestly being themselves, which was supposed to be the entire point of receiving and realizing Knowledge in the first place. Besides, lethargic, couch potato downtime in moderation is essential to the well-being of people over fifty, but I've yet to hear Prem Rawat admit to that. The mahacognacraji seems to have no problem being himself when nobody's looking. And, yes, most premies are ordinary, which means that they are far from slack arses when it comes to attending to their own needs outside of the context of Knowledge. So much for grace. I'm mindful that I contradict myself often on this forum, but it's inevitable with something as screwd-up as this. Besides, Prem Rawat is the master of contradictions, and I was a sincere student of his for thirty-four years. "Knowledge is the realm of no fear" versus "all the vegetables in the universe rotting in your closet" is but one small example. I think the world of you, Ocker.
Modified by lakeshore at Wed, Oct 07, 2009, 21:55:28
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Strangely enough I actually believe, now, that the best way of being involved in Rawatism is to be the slackest of slackers, the free ridingest free rider who just goes along to Amaroo for the festivals and pretends they can't afford the entrance fees and then hangs out drinking wine under the stars with old friends, shooting the breeze and getting whatever inspiration and good feelings are available.
And that is the opposite of the sort of person I am but then Rawat is the opposite of nearly everything I respect.
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Hi Lakeshore! "I'm mindful that I contradict myself often on this forum, but it's inevitable with something as screwd-up as this" As you said yourself in the sentence following this; it is so difficult to avoid contradictions in such a screwed up world as that of the premie. If anyone is a 'slack-arse' it is Rawat; the ultimate 'slackguru' - another bit of evidence for my 'divine fart' analogy for the PR Foundation logo - the blast from the buttocks of the 'fatguru'. Premies just can't win; whatever they do will fail, when the fatguru can't even decide where the 'finish line' is, or moves it constantly to avoid anyone's discovery that the prize for 'winning' is worthless! So, the poor unfortunates who have yet to recognise the worthlessness of this lack-lustre guru's fraudulent promises, continue to debase themselves by breathing in the 'divine fart' with each and every breath. The toxic effects of which make the one thing which could provide a 'winner' - the mind - stuporous and confused. Mindless zombies have no purpose in life aside from gathering others into their numbers in the deathless, lifeless graveyard of limbo. The 'Path of the Divine Fart' is a fruitless one, leading to a spiritless netherworld of everlasting expectancy. Looking back over the wasted years I spent 'living' in that barren landscape, it reminds me of one of those really awful Hammer Horror movies of the sixties - I used to call them 'Hammy Horror movies'! So - I find it difficult to blame premies for their lack of will. Denying the value of the mind has the effect of subduing the will. This ridiculous concept at the heart of the cult is the 'flaw' which eventually brought the whole thing down. Eradication of mind produces psychosis; the complete loss of structure and the sense of self. Even the friendly local drug dealer knows this fact of life; but the illustrious 'Owner of the Divine Fart' is so intoxicated by his own lethal emmisions, he couldn't give a S***! Now that we have come off this stuff the world seems a clearer place again - not great - but better, Far Better than in the presence of the aroma accompanying premiedom. Take Care Lakeshore - Kindest - john 
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So - I find it difficult to blame premies for their lack of will.
Those who had it are to be applauded for this trait in my view. The cult was potentially at its most dangerous during the initial 10 yr enthusiastic period, & particularly up to the disbandment of the 'World Peace Corps'. I congratulate myself for refusing to have anything to do with the proto-fascist Brownshirt element in DLM; those guys were very far from being slackers.
Thank god the disease never got out into the population at large.
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Considering what we know now - it all looks so much more sinister than we could have possibly admitted all those years ago. Though I am sure that had I sensed anything along the lines of 'Brownshirt' mentality or even moderately militaristic mentality I would have left before I had even begun - Did you hear or see anything to hint that this was the case Pat? I spent a lot of time at the PoP in the months before the official opening (mostly divesting hippies of their lovely locks) and occasionally saw the odd member of the 'Peace Corp' (or at least that was my understanding) doing work on the stage or repairs etc. We did hear stuff about them training for security etc. but did not suspect anything less wholesome might be going on? At the time I was very enthusiastic at the apparent impetus behind the mission's growth; it seemed ike it would just grow and grow. But, yes, thank whatever that it collapsed as quickly. "Thank god the disease never got out into the population at large." Maybe we should also be grateful that we didn't need to rely upon the NHS to step in for the cure! It would have surely been a plague by now - '28 days' style. Hopefully the last few carriers of the original strain will develop some antibodies in the not too distant future!! kindest - john
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I wasn't aware at the time that many (most?) guru sects in India have private militias, indeed I didn't know anything at all about anything in that line, just like 99% of everyone else.
Maybe 'Brownshirt' was a metaphor too far. However, leaving aside the
fact that it was love not physical force which would conquer all, the
WPC was staffed by people who were undeniably fanatics, & that was in the eyes of many 'ordinary' premies.
DLM in England began to replicate the Indian structure with the first ashrams in 1971. Exactly when the WPC was set up I don't know, but probably not long after. I got snared in early '72 & don't recall them then, but that was just on the cusp of when the whole admission process was tightened up, & it wasn't really neccessary to know very much apart from...this kid can show you God within....or even go through much of a process beforehand.
The increasingly authoritarian nature of the whole trip was obvious to a lot of people, but like Topsy it just grew & they got railroaded. To take up the original point of the thread, I'm not sure what 'slacker' means in the context of a totalitarian organisation.
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Hi John, “the fatguru can't even decide where the 'finish line' is, or moves it constantly to avoid anyone's discovery that the prize for 'winning' is worthless!” It’s a winless endeavor, that’s for sure. That was foremost on my mind when I finally gave up chasing the carrot. First it was, “wherever just one spark of that Knowledge goes, it makes it perfect, absolutely perfect.” “Realizing this Knowledge is easier than wearing eyeglasses.” Then it became “meditate on this Knowledge, realize this Knowledge, make that effort,” and so on. Then it became uncompromising surrender, devotion and commitment. Then it became literally a lifetime of practice that required constant reminding and inspiration from the "master." Then it became, “the journey is the destination.” Then it became, “sit back, relax and let the captain take you there.” Then it became, “my immortality, for the rest of my life, until my dying breath.” As you said, Prem Rawat moved the finish line constantly to avoid anyone’s discovery that there was no such thing as special knowledge, and as a result of Prem Rawat constantly moving it, I became too weakened, cynical and finally disillusioned to continue, like a horse giving up on the carrot after the better part of a lifetime. That’s when I “realized” that I’d been played for a fool. And that’s when I realized that as far as I’m concerned, Prem Rawat never understood what he was talking about in the first place, the last place and every place in between, any more than anyone else, and he simply made it up as he went along – whatever expedient thing he could think of to say in the moment that best protected and served his own selfish interests. I must say that it worked quite well for him. What others knew and lived by instinctively and had long since installed in their inner GPS, especially those who’ve struggled in life, Prem Rawat trotted out as his own amazing discoveries and used them in support his increasingly tentative assertions, pleas even, that “Knowledge works.” “Knowledge takes the edge off and makes the ride smoother.” How the heck did it ever get to that! I think that’s what’s happening to a lot of premies now; they’re buried under so many layers of rationalizations to protect themselves from the pain of “realizing” they’ve been taken for a ride. I know that because my experience of life became immeasurably richer, happier and more stable soon after I stopped practicing Knowledge. No longer was I dependent on such an incompetent “master,” and no longer was I suppressing the full range of human emotions in a juvenile and emotionally immature attempt to “fill my life every day with infinite joy” after being chastised by Prem Rawat when he said that I had no excuses for failing – perhaps one of his most pernicious teachings. And as for contradictions, how do you think I felt after I read Karen’s post, which I agreed with 100%!?  I started out strong and inspired and enthusiastic and dedicated and so full of love and devotion, and slowly deteriorated into a mindless slack arse zombie because Prem Rawat utterly drained me of my real élan vital. That’s what cult’s do to people. I think what we're trying to say here is that if premies are slow moving elephants that fart, slack arses if you will, it's because Prem Rawat made them that way. He has to go after young people because he used-up and drained his current flock. We certainly weren't like that when he first got his grubby hands on us. This is a long winded way of saying thank you so much, John, for your post and all your posts and for being so kind and sincere in every single one of them. Thank you again. lakeshore
Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Oct 08, 2009, 08:52:35
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"That’s when I “realized” that I’d been played for a fool." So simple - and yet it took us all so many years to finally give way to this nagging, annoying little thing called mind which we had so earnestly believed was the source of all our misery and confusion. But, fortunately, it stuck there in the background, patiently waiting for the time when it could demonstrate why the charges against it, the false accusations of the fatguru, were self-evidently unwarranted. The mind is the greatest asset of a human being bringing discrimination and order to counterbalance the chaotic, primordial impulses of emotion and the senses. The idea that mind is the enemy of human consciousness is a delusion. Without the mind we could never have found rawat in the first place, let alone serve his ego. This is further 'proof' imo that this whole concept was dreamed up by a few 'bright' egos (perhaps pefectly altruistically) - a synthesis of Hindu and Christian dogma. Not 'Divine revelation' as was claimed, but the product of ego as any cult or sect by definition always is. When Rawat was rejected by his 'divine family' it was not out of concern for his soul, but their egotistic concerns that he would surely blow the game. They knew that the claims they made were based upon nothing more than synthetic ideas, theories and dogma, and as I said in my earlier post, the whole show would stand or fall on the competence of the elected 'satguru'. If he had kept to the 'script' he could, perhaps have fooled more people for more of the time. But, as the family so correctly feared, his addiction to the adoration and wealth that his position secured coupled with the arrogance of a teenage mind, surrounded by a doting mass of willing and eager souls brought about the inevitable offscript 'goofs' and contradictions. Thank heaven that fake satgurus are merely human - for in the end it was his human weaknesses that betrayed him. Ironically all this deception has, for me at least, had one important and useful lesson. I learned something about humility in my years as a premie and that is a worthwhile lesson I think, despite the worthiness or unworthiness of the master I tried to serve. I like to think of that as a positive; and then of course to have shared that feeling with others of like mind actually makes two. As for contradictions Lakeshore, I too am guilty; only the other day I glady acknowledged myself as a failure as a premie, but actually I don't really think that any of us failed at all. No we didn't reach the nebulously undefined goal which Rawat pretended to be guiding us towards. We were never meant to. But there is a realisation to be had from all of this. Rawat never could be 'Hansa' - more likely 'Porkus' the undivine pig whose promise to set you free from attachment involves his consumption of all that you own and then farting in your face! Talk about Taking your breath away? No - but seriously - we tried, we 'failed' - BUT - we tried!! No blame, no shame, the shame is His (with a small h). As we all ought to have learned from being premies - good work requires inspiration! And I get plenty of that from the posters here - and a special draft of inspiration from your posts Lakeshore as I think is the case for everyone here!! Take Care - kindest - john
Modified by johnnyboy at Thu, Oct 08, 2009, 12:51:18
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You are just another unlit match! No seriously we were taken for a ride and wherever we are now is where we are.
I realize my life would have been very different if I hadn't followed Maharaji. Probably kids, a good career and a more grounded life. These are facts, as I turned down loads of good opportunities in the path of Knowledge. I don't have a CV or letter of recommendation for my missing years!!! I think some people still view us with a little suspicion. He was the gal/guy in that cult. You know the guru who bla bla bla!! Of course the pwk still feel we copped out and are doomed. We were saved and walked away. A least this is what the old guard might feel! For the newcomers it is a humanitarian organization with golf tournaments!!!
I'm sure this is true of many other cults and I hope that the warning lights go off for other potential followers who might consider getting involved with this movement.
Thanks to others on this thread - Powerful stuff!!
Modified by Old Timer at Thu, Oct 08, 2009, 13:51:54
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>>I don't have a CV or letter of recommendation for my missing years!!! I think some people still view us with a little suspicion. He was the gal/guy in that cult. You know the guru who bla bla bla!<< I think if you tell people pro-actively (old-fashioned: preventively) about the missing years in your CV and what is behind them, and if you do this in a self-confident and offensively-minded way, then chances are that they: -- don't whisper behind your back because they know they can ask you about it and clarify any questions openly -- think that you probably have a very reliable and also loveable trait of character about you, because most people are too egotistical to sacrifice valuable years in their life-time with a spiritual cause; just to later realize that they were wrong and therefore row back to "normality" (whatever they think that is) -- will respect you for being able to admit a mistake even after a long time period and allow yourself a fresh start all over again, at an age that most people are settled down and probably just falling asleep with boredom in their lives That's just a theory of mine - I was never forced to act along these lines, simply because I have no missing years in my CV or to be precise those missing years of mine can be easily explained with raising my young family. But in other respects I tend to act pro-actively and till now never experienced any bad results. It's just a question of being self-confident and of having the backbone to stand by yourself and your youthful foolishness. (At least my own experience - for anyone to try it out or not, depending on their individual situation.) I just wanted to encourage you to see yourself in a better light than you seem to do. Be well and best regards, Ash
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
Modified by Ash at Thu, Oct 08, 2009, 16:26:55
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Thank you for your words of encouragement Ash. There are of course people who are very pleased that I've moved on and left the movement. Unfortunately my youthful foolishness went on into my late 40's and it was my 20s,30s and 40's that suffered as a consequence of the cult. The missing years were spent in a premie trance. Of course life went on; I worked and had relationships after the ashrams closed but the bottom line was always my relationship to Rawat. Almost everything else took second place.
In hindsight, I look back and see the what ifs. I do generally feel positive and the main reason why I post here is to warn off potential converts from joining the current movement. Participating in the forum is part of the healing process. Thanks again.
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You could put down your missing years as "engaged in contemplative retreat". People may not respect a cult follower, but they might have less issues with monks or people who spend time considering whether they might become one. If I saw your CV with a period with "religious contemplative" on it I might well be a lot less likely to turf it than if you had a long period with nothing at all (looks like you were in jail, maybe) - and the other alternative, just padding the years by expanding your pre-cult years and dating back the post-cult ones, is just dishonest.
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>I have many times said premies are just ordinary, very ordinary human beings and I stand by that as I had decades of experience associating with many of them without being one of them and not seeing them through the eyes of wishful thinking.< Ordinary and 'not-ordinary' can be somewhat nebulous conceptions and this is particularly so where there is not a specified or agreed definition of individual, multiple or group conditionality. For instance, is a group of 1,000 containing 50 exceptional individuals, 'ordinary' because the global population of which the 1,000 are part contains on average 5% exceptional individuals ? Put another way is the group of 1,000 'ordinary' because it is a representative sample of a global population ? Or does 'ordinary' when applied to a group, mean that every one of the individuals making up the group is characteristically unexceptional ? There are numerous possible permutations of these questions about group/individual relationships but I think these two contrasting points deliniate the main difficulties with a characterisation of 'ordinary'. It's not that I think there's anything fundamentally exceptional about premies as a 'group' - other than of course only a small proption of the global human population actually get involved in religious fervour/cultism outside of what is locally culturally mediated - it's that there's some basic statistical difficults that arise when looking at the premie population over time. Let's assume that some point in the past - say for convenience 1980 - the total premie population in English speaking and European Countries was unequivocally 'ordinary' in the sense that allowing for age, education and social class differentials, in all other respects premies formed an entirely representational cross section of their source populations. In 1980 the 'Western' premie population was between 15,000 and 20,000, by 2005 that had fallen significantly perhaps to less than 10,000. For the 2005 premies to be 'ordinary' in the same way that the 1980 premies were 'ordinary' would require that the diminishing in numbers occured in a way that was wholly representational of the proportions of defining characteristis as they applied to premies in 1980 (number of geniuses, number of psychopaths, number of artisans, number of academics etc). IMO such a proportional change is highly unlikely, and while it's possible, that kind of change almost always throws up statistically identifiable alterations in a population. This would mean that if one started with premies as 'ordinary' in 1980, by 2005, the very fact of redicing numbers would have seen premies moving away from being 'ordinary'. Of course the opposite process is just as likely, that is premies weren't ordinary in 1980, but the 2005 population was more 'ordinary' by comparison. For what it's worth my take is that the remaining premie population is very unlikely to be 'ordinary' in any representational sense. I'd guess at (statistically) exceptional levels of addiction, psychological distress, very large disparities in wealth - high numbers of wealthy, high numbers of poor, with (proportionally) low numbers of median wealthy individuals -, high numbers of single people, and high levels of indebtedness. Nik
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For what it's worth my take is that the remaining premie population is very unlikely to be 'ordinary' in any representational sense. I'd guess at (statistically) exceptional levels of addiction, psychological distress, very large disparities in wealth - high numbers of wealthy, high numbers of poor, with (proportionally) low numbers of median wealthy individuals -, high numbers of single people, and high levels of indebtedness. Isn't that an accurate desciption of the general population? I'm using ordinary in a very ordinary sense. And I'm basing it on a non-random sample of pwicks that either live on the Gold Coast or I know. But the single most typical characteristic of premies is their age. The majority are in their late 50's or thereabouts. And I have no idea how it is in Britain but over here I'd say your description would be closer if you toned it down. So there are probably a higher percentage of drug users in the premie poulation than norma, a higher percentage of mild psychological distress, etc.
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