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How obscence, the way the cult uses this member's death as a propaganda device. Disgusting ..... Mere cannon fodder ....
Modified by Jim at Sun, Dec 25, 2005, 13:55:54
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Donations , be made to Elan Vital
Modified by Poul at Sun, Dec 25, 2005, 16:55:50
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Will Rawat be at the funeral I wonder, & if not, why not?
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Actually, my money is on, "Oh, hell no." Why not? Exert himself? Are you kidding? When he might not be in the spotlight? Oh, hell no.
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Has he ever been to one? If so, did he speak? What'd he say: "Well, Susie here was remembering my Name when she died so I can tell you all she's doing just fine ...."
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Seriously, I wonder, does anyone know? Has Rawat ever been to a premie's funeral? If so, what did he say? Imagine Jesus attending an early Christian's funeral ... ??
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I did hear that a certain premie left Rawat but was still friends with a lot of the initiators. Anyhow, she died, and Rawat forbid the initiators from attending her funeral. I think one other initiator was so outraged that he left the cult over this. I have heard this from two different people.
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That's amazing, Joe. I wonder, is there any good reason for not naming the premie in question? I can understand your source perhaps not wanting to be named (like John, I'm never happy to hear that but whatever, we've considered this issue so often, haven't we?). I can't understand why the deceased shouldn't be named though. After all, it sounds like if Rawat had his way, they'd be like really anonymous now -- unmarked grave and everything. By the way, any of you initiators who were friends with this woman who didn't go to her funeral just because of the agya : [..........]
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He's not the Messiah... he's a very naughty boy.
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Crowd: THE MESSIAH, THE MESSIAH. SHOW US THE MESSIAH. THE MESSIAH, THE
MESSIAH. SHOW US THE MESSIAH. MARY: Now you listen here. He's not he messiah, he's a very naughty boy!
now go away. Crowd: WHO ARE YOU? MARY: I'm his mother, that's who. Crowd: BEHOLD HIS MOTHER! BEHOLD HIS MOTHER! HAIL TO THEE MOTHER OF BRIAN:. BLESSED ART THOU, HOSANNAH! ALL PRAISE TO THEE, NOW AND ALWAYS!!! MARY: Aaaaahw. Now don't think you can get around me like that. He's not coming out, and that's my final word. Now shove off! Crowd: NO! MARY: Did you hear what I said? Crowd: YES! MARY: Oh. I see. It's like that, is it? Crowd: YES! MARY: Aaaaw, well, all right then. You can see him for one minute, but not one second more. Do you understand? Crowd: Yes. MARY: Promise? Crowd: Well, All Right. MARY: All right. Here he is then. Come on, Brian:. Come and talk to them. Brian: But mum. Judith. MARY: Now leave that welsh tart alone.
--------[She drags him out to address the Crowd:.] Brian: But I don't really want to, mum. Crowd: BRIAN:. BRIAN: Brian: Good Morning. Crowd: A BLESSING! A BLESSING! A BLESSING! Brian: No, No. please, please, please listen. I've got one or two things to say. Crowd: TELL US! TELL US BOTH OF THEM. Brian: Look. You've got it all wrong. You don't Need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody. You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals. Crowd: YES! WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS!
Brian: You're all different.
Crowd: YES. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT.
Folower5: I'm not.
Crowd: Ssssh. Sssh.
Brian: You've all got to work it out for yourselves.
Crowd: YES. WE'VE GOT TO WORK IT OUT FOR OURSELVES.
Brian: Exactly.
Crowd: TELL US MORE!
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Always a pleasure to read that again. Say, is there a site with the whole script somewhere? I'd love to read it. (Anything to take my mind off "Downfall" which we watched last night. Wow!  )
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...from an advanced google search for a few key quotes: http://corky.net/scripts/life_brian.html It's a bit rough-and-ready, but it looks like its all there. Amazing that passage, eh? It says so much about what goes on in devotees' heads once they've been turned, I reckon. N
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Thanks for the link. The movie was particularly poignant for me as I saw it during my last few months in the ashram when I was starting to flout the ashram rules a bit. I was actually supposed to be looking for work the afternoon I snuck downtown and saw this movie which, much as I tried, I couldn't quite rationalize as either satsang, service or meditation.
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"In lieu of flowers, Emmy is requesting donations be made to Elan Vital in memory of Regi Brown."
This is serious, isn't it? Not some idea of a sick, twisted joke? Frequently I find myself thinking, "Well, that's the most disgusting thing regarding Rawat that I've ever seen." But, it keeps getting topped. I'm going to be sick.
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The thing is - these folks - Regi and Emmy are (were) long time believers - I know a number of exs have fond memories of Regi who was by all accounts a decent guy. Even when Bush promoted Regi to some major position at the Dept' of Defense three or four years ago no one made any issue of a 'cult follower' being nominated to that position, despite its obvious 'headline' status. I don't doubt that Regi's wife genuinely wants him to be remembered as a 'premie' and as someone who 'worked for peace'. Of course the 'truth' of Regi's involvement with Rawat is as compromising and dubious as it was for any of us - but that is hardly how his family and friends will want him remembered. Death is frequently an opportunity for aggressive revisionism ! Nik
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/21/AR2005122102222_pf.html Reginald J. BrownArmy, Defense Official
Reginald J. Brown, 65, who retired in January as assistant secretary of the Army for manpower and reserve affairs, and spent much of this year as a senior executive officer for the under secretary of defense for personnel and readiness, died Dec. 17 at his home in Solomons. He had pancreatic cancer. After active-duty service in the Army, Mr. Brown began his federal career in the early 1970s. His positions included: associate director for economic analysis at the Defense Manpower Commission; executive director of the President's Commission on Military Compensation; and director of energy, chemicals and public utilities in the Office of Price Monitoring of the Council on Wage and Price Stability. For much of the 1980s, he was a senior fellow for energy and strategic studies at Georgetown University's Center for Strategic and International Studies. He was an assistant administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development before joining the Army Department in 2001. Reginald Jude Brown was a native of New Orleans and a 1961 graduate of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. He received a master's degree in public administration at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. Starting in 1961, he spent a decade in the Army, served in the Vietnam War and rose to the rank of major. His decorations included the Bronze Star and the Meritorious Service Medal. His federal honors included the Army's Distinguished Civilian Service Medal, the Navy's Distinguished Public Service Award and the Secretary of Defense Medal for Outstanding Public Service. He was a board member of Capital Technology Information Services of Rockville, which provides software for managing large-scale clinical trials; and Caelum Research Corp. of Rockville, a government contracting firm specializing in aerospace engineering and applied sciences. He had a second home in Alexandria. Survivors include his wife, Emilia Chong Brown, whom he married in 1963, of Solomons and Alexandria; two children, Eric Brown of Vienna and Denise Lawson of Springfield; a brother; two sisters; and five grandchildren. © 2005 The Washington Post Company
Modified by Nik at Mon, Dec 26, 2005, 09:15:40
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A friend emailed to advise that: the Death Notice, as published in The Washington Post, not on by any premie site, said that donations may be made to the PanCAN (Pancreatic Cancer info and help organization) OR elvan vital. PanCan's address is 2141 Rosecrans Ave., Suite 7000, El Segundo, CA 90245. Perhaps you might want to post this name and address were exes might feel more comfortable contributing -- per the family's wishes."
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| Reginald J. Brown |
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BROWN, REGINALD J. (Age 65) On
Saturday, December 17, 2005 at his residence. He is survived by his
beloved wife, Emmy; his son, Eric; his daughter, Denise and five
grandchildren. Family will receive friends on Tuesday, December 27 from
2 to 4 and 6 to 8 p.m. at EVERLY-WHEATLEY FUNERAL HOME, 1500 W.
Braddock Rd., Alexandria, VA, where a service will be held December 28
at 10 a.m. A military service will take place, Thursday, December 29 at
1:30 p.m. at Old Cadet Chapel, West Point, NY. Interment to follow in
West Point Cemetery. In lieu of flowers, contributions may be made in
his name to PanCAN, 2141 Rosecrans Ave., Suite 7000, El Segundo, CA
90245 or ELAN Vital, PO Box 2220, Agoura Hills, CA 91376. www.everlyfuneralhomes.com
Published in The Washington Post on 12/22/2005.
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Related link: Reginald Brown Death Notice
Modified by JHB at Mon, Dec 26, 2005, 14:53:59
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I have just been sent this email from someone who knew Reggie well. They tell me:It is interesting the propoganda of Elan Vital even after death. The truth was Reggie was sick of the lies and backstabbing in EV, and once Bush was back in power he wanted back in the Pentagon, to boost his pension and generally make more money....So he resigned his security role (even though EV maintained he had never been so happy) and returned to Bush. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Mike,
The problem with this is that anyone can ascribe thoughts and motives to someone who has died, and they have no opportunity to correct them. At least Mishler went on the record with his opinions of Rawat before he died. I am not aware of Brown ever saying anything publicly against Rawat or Elan Vital.
Whereas I have no doubt that you know the person who emailed you, and you do not doubt their integrity, the fact remains that they are anonymous, and without corroboration, while they continue to be anonymous, their view has little or no value.
John.
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I would never say that what Mike's anonymous contact said has little or no value as I'm sure that if Mike trusts the person and people trust Mike it can mean a lot. Rather, I think the point is the hearsay has no evidentiary value.
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I would never say that what Mike's anonymous contact said has little or no value as I'm sure that if Mike trusts the person and people trust Mike it can mean a lot. Rather, I think the point is the hearsay has no evidentiary value. The people who trust Mike will accept the account of his contact, and the people who distrust Mike will not. For those in between, the account is of little or no value in swaying them one way or the other. After years of hearing accounts of Rawat's behaviour and related topics from people who won't or can't put their names behind their words I'm getting a little tired of it. This isn't like the Washington Post and Deep Throat where the anonymous evidence leads to further leads which leads to Rawat being dethroned. These anonymous accounts don't lead anywhere. I've just had yet another request from someone who has put their name behind their story on EPO, to revert to anonymity. We managed to come to an agreement not to do so, but so few with first hand knowledge of Rawat's private behaviour have spoken out I feel I have to defend each testimony. I would appeal to anyone who has such first hand experience, to do the right thing and speak out against this abusive fraud. You are the only people who can do so. John.
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AT least I know I'll never have Rawat or EV pretending I died a devotee, asking for donations ....
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At least I know I'll never have Rawat or EV pretending I died a devotee, asking for donations .... Are you sure, Jim? Have you never heard of Darwin's deathbed conversion? (http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8561.htm) Premies, I'm sure, would be both convinced and gladdened to hear of your own last-minute volte face, such is the power of their faith in the Master.
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Hi JohnI agree that statements made anonymously carry less weight than statements attributed to a named person who is considered to know the facts and to speak truly. I also have sympathy with your 'getting tired' of hearing accounts anonymously. However, we are not in a court of law, where conclusions need to be established beyoned a reasonable doubt. As nice as it would be to have that standard, the informed consumer of opinions needs to weigh up as best as they can the probabilities for where the truth lies, both as regards Rawat and also much else in this world. This involves reading different accounts, judging what they hear or read by what they already know, looking at the internal consistency of the writing, factoring in the credibility of the writer by their whole tone and feel, and much else besides. I have long given up trying to prove, to the beyond-a-reasonable-doubt standard, anything much about Rawat. Instead, I put my point of view, and the things I witnessed and lived through, in the public domain, as one voice among many. It is up to the inquirer to read all accounts and make up their mind as best they can; I try to influence that process, but in the end I cannot choose the inquirer's conclusion. So what I posted above: It is interesting the propoganda of Elan Vital even after death. The truth was Reggie was sick of the lies and backstabbing in EV, and once Bush was back in power he wanted back in the Pentagon, to boost his pension and generally make more money....So he resigned his security role (even though EV maintained he had never been so happy) and returned to Bush. are the exact words of someone I know personally, who knew Reggie well and had long intimate talks with him, and who I know as a truthful person. That is the best I can do. Are you suggesting that we should not report any statement unless the originator is prepared to be named publicly? Or to be specific, that I should not have posted my 'EV Revisionism' post? You write of the above quote that 'their view has little or no value' because they are anonymous. I disagree. While their view would have more value if they allowed themselves to be named, I think it still has considerable value as it stands. After all, it is not as if I am reporting a view that is anonymous to me; as I say, I know the person well. If our hypothetical neutral inquirer were to skim through EPO, and all the ex-premie sites, as well as Rawat and EV sites, I think they would find a wealth of evidence that is credible both by it cumulative effect as well as its internal consistency, even though much of it is from unnamed people. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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No, Mike, I'm not suggesting that you, or anyone else, shouldn't post information that they are reasonably certain is true, but as you say it carries less weight from anonymous sources. It's just that it would carry so much more weight if your contact would post here under his/her own name, but I know many such people have their reasons not to do so. Regarding EPO, all the really substantive first hand accounts of Rawat's personal life are from named individuals.
John.
Modified by JHB at Tue, Dec 27, 2005, 07:11:15
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Regi had expressed that the most rewarding, fulfilling and enjoyable years of his life were the years he spent in full-time service to Maharaji. and when he was not in full time service, what about the fulfillment and enjoyment..............
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This notice you posted does not appear on EV's website, and it refers to 'our team-mate Emma Brown'. Could it be that it was a private notice which wasn't meant to be publicised, and hence did not include the request for donations to PanCAN?
John.
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Could it be that it was a private notice which wasn't meant to be publicised, and hence did not include the request for donations to PanCAN?Yes, I believe that to be the case. I received it as part of an 'inner circle' email. I never claimed, nor in fact even thought, that it would be on the EV website as I received it. I always imagined it was sent to conmmitted premies only, like on First Class (do they still use First Class?). I don't personally see any impropriety in the premies' notice that I posted. As a group, committed premies are entitled to believe whatever they like, and put as good a spin as they can on events. I only challenge their view and spin on events which I myself witnessed and know about, and their beliefs when they are paraded as facts. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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In hindsight, I think it would have probably been better if it had been made clear that it was an internal, private, message, as I think some of us reacted as though it was a public announcement. Even then, I still don't see why the recipients couldn't have been given the choice of donating to PanCAN or EV!
Anyway, what are you doing receiving 'inner circle' email?!!! 
John.
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Anyway, what are you doing receiving 'inner circle' email?!!!  Maybe Mike's got a lifetime subscription. 
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"Regi was a wonderful man whose outstanding qualities were his love for
Maharaji and Knowledge, his love for his family, and his integrity and
dedication to principle."
The most disturbing part of all of it is the claim in the EV version that among his most outstanding qualities, his love of Mahariji and Knowledge comes first, before even his love for his family. I don't care if it is a "private" notice to the inner circle only, that's not right. Is his family okay with that? Coming in second? I know a lot of military people, and I know that the vast majority of them would want to be remembered for valuing family, integrity, duty and then other things, in that order. Those are the reasons most of them serve in the military and most of them will tell you that. For his family to be given second place after Rawat, who is not even mentioned in the official notice or obituary, is not right. Rawat and EV should hang their heads in shame on that one. That is an insult to a true military man and certainly an insult to his family.
I've included my e-mail address if anyone from EV can explain and justify this, I would really like to hear from them. premie_spouse@yahoo.com
Modified by Premie_Spouse at Wed, Dec 28, 2005, 15:17:59
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His dedication to integrity and principle, unforunately, came in third. Otherwise he would have denounced Rawat long ago. And the really sad part is that this description of Regi is probably quite accurate if he did remain faithful to Rawat, because Knowledge being the top priority is the #1 major tenet of the Rawat religion.
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His dedication to integrity and principle, unforunately, came in third. Otherwise he would have denounced Rawat long ago. How could it be otherwise?
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How unbelievably sad for those people who tried and wanted to love him but couldn't get in past the rawat barrier. Parents? Children? Good friends? How many people were hurt beyond imagining by this? How much pain should be on rawat's head for this, and countless other identical situations?
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Attachment. That was the dirtiest word in Premie Land, at least when I lived there. And every human relationship fell under that category. Except the guru worshipping relationship. I don't know how damaged premies' hearts are now, as a result of their buying into that philosophy. I suppose it depends on their level of involvement. Anybody who really makes Rawat their #1 are relying principally on their idealistic world view, and thereby abandoning principle and integrity. I'm sure they would disagree with me on this, otherwise how could they live with themselves? But it is so very clear how much benefit of the doubt they are giving Rawat. The Jagdeo problem alone is enough to establish the premies' lack of the discernment required for any person who is really dedicated to principle and integrity.
Modified by Will at Wed, Dec 28, 2005, 16:09:46
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Yes, regarding the guru, the relationship is "different", it's "not like that", no matter how one tries to describe how the relationship of premie and guru seems to a non-premie, it's "not like that at all". And yes, they would disagree with you about abandoning piniciple and integrity. They believe themselves to be highly principled---those I know personally. Yet, they demand no integrity from their Llord. Odd.
An interesting thing I've seen in the premies I know: Though they will believe any negative, ugly thing they read on the internet about anybody, from the Pope to the President and all points in-between, they will allow absolutely nothing negative about Rawat to enter their mind thoughts consciousness. Those things about Rawat on the internet were written by "confused people", "People wanting to hurt Maharaji", or people who "never understood; they should never have gotten knowledge". ('scuse me, didn't the all-knowing master decide who did and did not get knowledge? You mean he was....gasp!...wrong?) They will believe anything ugly, unless it's about their Mmaster. Weird. Okay, I should say, weird to me. I know it makes sense to many people who were in the cult, but to me, that's very, very weird.
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An interesting thing I've seen in the premies I know: Though they will believe any negative, ugly thing they read on the internet about anybody, from the Pope to the President and all points in-between, they will allow absolutely nothing negative about Rawat to enter their consciousness. Those things about Rawat on the internet were written by "confused people", "People wanting to hurt Maharaji", or people who "never understood; they should never have gotten knowledge". I disagree Premie_Spouse. If anyone says anything negative about Rawat, no matter how minor, they are neither confused, nor ignorant, they are hateful. In fact, according to One-Reality, everyone posting here is a member of a hate group.
Modified by Steve at Wed, Dec 28, 2005, 23:39:14
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When I was waiting to receive Knowledge my exercise in overcoming attachment was to not look for the results of my favourite football team, Leeds United. This was in 1974/5 which was arguably the greatest season for the team. They went 29 games from the start of the season unbeaten and were champions, but because I bought into this idea that I shouldn't be 'attached' to things of the world, I missed it.
Of course, encouraging us to try to overcome our 'attachment' to our parents and families was the greatest sin that Rawat and his servants committed.
John.
Modified by JHB at Wed, Dec 28, 2005, 17:57:48
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What? He even made you miss the football results in 1974?? Why, the dirty, rotten stinking bastard! Unforgivable!
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wow, that brings back memories. Here were some things I thought were "attachments" that I had to let go of: Reading the newspaper, going to movies, watching television, visiting my family, sex, smoking dope, sex, drinking milkshakes, sex, politics, reading (anything but satsang), watching (American) football games, (particularly the Packers and Notre Dame), having non-premie friends whom I was not trying to convert, "chit chat," nice clothes, masturbation, Saturday Night Live. I remember being told Nixon was resigning in 1974 and wondering how all that had come about. I had remembered Watergate before I got knowledge, but I remember being amazed things had progressed that much without my awareness.
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Putting the guru first above everything else, at the expense of inferior attachements such as friends, family, and material possessions, did damage me (mainly psychologically), but I do not think that my misguided attitude diminished my integretity. Also, I hope and I have the impression that most followers of Prem Rawat and Sathya Sai Baba were and are not as fanatical (and so consistent) in their views and behavior as I was. What strikes me as ironic, because it somewhat contradicts the cliche of the brainwashed irrational cult member, is that it was my tendency to apply Sathya Sai Baba's advices/belief system intensely, logically and consistently that hurt me the most. Andries
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