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The person who is writing the paper wrote that I put all gurus on one heap and try to light a fire under it. This statement is untrue: of course I see the difference between SSB and Prem Rawat. How can I not see the differences after contributing extensively to the Wikipedia articles on them? The most conspicuous differences are the lack of claims by Rawat of miracles performed by him, the absence any intellectual contents in Rawat's teachings, and the meditation techniques that require initiation and "keeping in touch". In the SSB movement, the meditation techniques are public (one is similar to that of Rawat). Success in meditation is not seen as requiring "keeping in touch". The meditation techniques are just one of the many teachings of SSB. A major difference is the encouragement of the battle against the mind by Rawat which I have not experienced nor observed in the SSB movement. On the other hand, the similarities in the belief system of the early followers of Prem Rawat and current folllower of SSB are many. E.g. seeing the acts of the guru as a lila, faith in the importance of dreams (article by Lucy DuPertuis), arathi/aarthi. Other similarities are SSB and Rawat sometimes speaking in third person about themselves, making claims of divinity. Another similarity is the encouragement of devotion by SSB and Prem Rawat to the guru. A major difference is that the SSB movement was not a favorit target of the anti-cult movement, unlike the DLM, at least not until the year 2000. I think that the reasons are that the members of the SSB movement generally do not live in ashrams (a few live in ashrams in India), were never encouraged to give up wordly careers, and also because the peak of popularity was in 1999 after the cult wars, never very popular in the USA, was not missionary, and it grew only gradually. The religious scholar In 1999 George Chryssides attributes the fact that SSB was not a popular target of the anti-cult movement to the lack of a serious scandal, but this is incorrect. There was already one major well-published scandal (in India and the Netherlands) associated with the guru when Chryssides wrote this, that is the killings in SSB's private quarters on June 6th 1993.
Andries (amended many times)
Related link: http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/engels/articles/Paper%20'A%20Guru%20Accused'.html#_edn3
Modified by Andries at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 11:41:26
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Hello Andries, Prem rawat is different from Sathya Sai Baba. I would say VERY different: no miracles, no holy ashes, no saffron, no sexual awakening of Kundalini, no matras, no chakras (maybe some pranayama), no Hindu-related idolatry, no claims of virgin birth, etc, etc, etc. BTW, Prabhupada has an ashram in West Virginia, called "New Vrindaban" and it has a very lovely temple with a golden roof and breathtaking views ot the Appalachian Mountains. Good luck with your classification. Others have tried and failed. Reductionism in this subject is a big mistake IMO. - Daniella (Hi Daniella) Daniella is citing the particular practical differences between the SSB and Rawat cults. Basically, cult leaders indeed have very similar characteristics. The specifics of a belief-system, and objects/style of worship, etc., are not what makes a cult leader a cult leader. Rather, it's the exploitation of "students" or devotees by a guru or cult leader that makes them (the leaders) so easy to lump into one pile. Their MOs are very similar, even though some of these cult-practices/beliefs can be quite different. Hey, we had miracles! In Rawat's cult, miracles were purported all of the time. But, they were kept as gossip that filtered down from PAMs (premies around Maharaji) down through the communities. A widespread practice was the use of holy water which every premie kept, that came (supposedly) from Maharaji himself, given to instructors/initiators to distribute, diluted with distilled water (which made it even more powerful!). This was water "blessed" by having been run over "Maharaji's Holy Lotus Feet," or he dunked his toes in them, and treated by premies as a magic elixir from the Lord. A standard practice after the Arti ritual was to distribute holy water (charanmrit) to everyone who took it in their cupped hands, then washed over the forhead and licked off of palms. Also, we always sang arti to a photo of Rawat (at programs to him personally, which still happens today, even though Arti may be played instrumentally), kissed his feet in darshan lines, etc. There were lots of Hindu/Indian traditions practiced during the first decade or so he spent in the U.S. Hell, that's part of what the cult blames on ex-premies now -- being too hooked on all those rituals! Wearing saris comes to mind, which EV accuses us of, but no one ever really did wear them. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Daniella's interpretations here. I'd like to know the premise of her paper. "OTOH, I certainly know that ex-followers from many denominations and movements, have a linking to his research, due to the fact that it resonates with their own narratives. "Embittered ex-members tended to be those who had in some way failed at their great work. They felt conned, that they had been tricked into believing the unbelievable—and indeed some had, although most had contributed to their own miseries. But there is a special pain felt by one who has deliberately chosen to abandon reason to follow another—in deep trust and love—into an unknown darkness, only to fall flat on his face. [..] Now, rather than seeing the journey as the goal, the follower chooses to leave, blaming the leader when he finds out that the impossible ideal is, after all, impossible. The failed follower leaves when it suits him, sometimes with open hostility toward the group." (Oakes?, posted by Daniella) The fact is that cult leaders set their followers up to fail. It's part of the MO. In Rawat's case, he consistently leads his students on, using their adoration for him as the hook. It's perfectly natural for someone to feel conned by their leader(s) because they have been conned. The fact is that in a cult it's always the fault of the cult leader for a follower's failure (which really isn't a failure at all). I'm not sure what the value is of that quote. Is it by one of those so-called new religious movement "scholars?"  If Daniella is writing a paper about ex-premies, she could really benefit by it running us before she finalizes it. She'd get some real critiquing. She already seems to be getting a lot of things wrong, imo. Why do researchers always neglect to talk to ex-followers? Is it that apostate are all haters and disgrunted former cult employees? Best wishes, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 12:04:00
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I had already understood about the miracles in the DLM, but thanks for the confirmation. In general, I do no agree with your generalizations about cults and cult leader and this is I guess this was the background of our strong disagreements on forum8. However I do think that it is possible to say that certain gurus are unreliable or incompetent beyond reasonable and I think that this can be said, both about SSB and Rawat, in spite of the obvious differences between them. Andries
Modified by Andries at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 17:25:36
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so please keep a soft mattress behind you – one of those they use for pole vaulting would be perfect – to break your fall when the sucker punch comes.
I do so love the name though – Daniella Samantha.
"Daniella Samantha, where has your love gone, it's not in your papers, so where has it gone then, Daniella"
+++++++++
don't pant, it's only dan't
Related link: Jessica Simpson
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Daniella contradicts Jim and wrote that Rawat never said the following, but that it is a mix of quotes from the book "Who is Guru Maharaj ji?" by various persons, including Charles Cameron and Rawat's mother. Is this true? What are the page nr's of the quotations? Thanks in advance. Andries"Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ...... When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith." [1]
Modified by Andries at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 13:43:46
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Put the burden back where it belongs. She's not simply saying that she questions the veracity of these quotes. If she'd done that, she'd be entitled to the proof. As it is, though, she's gone further and now the burden's on her. She wrote: You have been mislead. Maharaji did not wrote the above, as you say... This is a good example of the strenuous efforts made by the publisher of that website to attempt to prove that point. What you quote above is not one continuous excerpt from Prem Rawat from that book, but a potpourri of quotes strung together, some of which are not from Prem Rawat at all. Some portions are from a sat-sang by his mother, some others by the editor of the book, some others from Brahmananda, and some others by Prem Rawat. In my study of these ex-followers, this is a recurring theme: their passionate holding to certain beliefs related to their interpretation of their past, as a way to rationalize their antagonism and as a way of constructing specific narratives that support these beliefs. The person that put together that "quote" had a very specific purpose in mind: to mislead people like you into thinking that Rawat actually said that, and he has obviously succeeded. This is a very interesting development that is being studied in Sociology of Religion: the ease in which these narratives can be constructed (and replicated!) thanks to the self-publishing empowerment facilitated by the Internet.
Ask her for her proof. She should provide the quotes from "sat-sang by his mother, some others by the editor of the book, some others from Brahmananda, and some others by Prem Rawat" which she says these come from. Otherwise, she should explain why she'd make such scurrillous allegations.
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I agree that she has gone much further than just asking about this quote, but in spite of that, I think it is fair to ask people here where this quote (labelled on ex-premie website as "various excerpts" ) comes from. And especially of course, if it is Rawat who said this or people who spoke about Rawat. Andries
Modified by Andries at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 16:50:31
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Sure, Andries, and if I had the book in front of me I'd find you the specific references. But, by this point, you should know how careful we've been to not do something as stupid as to fabricate or misattribute Rawat quotes. If you can just assume that for a moment, just for argument's sake, don't you agree that, once you give her the proof, this girl has a lot of explaining to do? Where exactly did she get her information? What does she mean when she says she's been studying us when all she can come up with is this stupid premie idiocy? I'm sure you'll explore that with her appropriately.
Modified by Jim at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 17:05:11
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Anybody can mistake a mistake in attributing quotes. To deny that ex-followers did not try to prove something is of course untrue. The ex-premie website does not say that it was Rawat who wrote that in the book. It was you who wrote this a few days ago on the forum. The book was presented as Rawat's authorized biography, so Rawat is co-responsible for its contents. Andries
Modified by Andries at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 17:13:00
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You're right. Anyone can make a mistake like that. But I don't understand what you mean by this: To deny that ex-followers did not try to prove something is of course untrue. What do you mean? But you also didn't answer my other question. Don't you think that this girl has a lot to answer for in terms of who's filled her head with such lies about us, exactly what kind of "study" does she purport to be doing and how much can she claim to know about her subject when she's as fundamentally wrong about both motive and actions? Her entire thesis is offensive and unsubstantiated by the evidence. She deserves the academic equivalent of a slap in the face.
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Jim you have tried to prove many times that Rawat made personal claims of divinity and you spent quite a lof of effort searching for this evidence. Andries
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Andries, You didn't even come close to answering my question. What's with you?
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"In any case Hans Maharaj Ji claimed a Sant Mat succession which he passed to Maharaj Ji. Maharaj Ji, as do many of the other Sant Mat leaders, claims to be a Perfect Master, an embodiment of God on earth, a fitting object of worship and veneration." Melton, Gordon J. Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America,(1986), pp.142 entry Divine Light Mission Garland Publishing, ISBN 0-8240-9036-5
Citing Melton to support the opinions of ex-premies. How ironic.
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I asked you this and I'll ask you again: Don't you think that this girl has a lot to answer for in terms of who's filled her head with such lies about us, exactly what kind of "study" does she purport to be doing and how much can she claim to know about her subject when she's as fundamentally wrong about both motive and actions?
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You might also want to tell her that, although she likes to use the phrase, she doesn't seem to understand what "reduction ad absurdum" means. She uses it twice to ridicule us but just makes herself look stupid and pretentious: Saying that Prem Rawat made claims of divinity by quoting speeches in which he describes "Guru Mahaharaj ji" as the "all powerful", is a good example of Reductio ad absurdum, in which one side pursues an opponent's argument to an illogical conclusion. If you want to understand what is being said, you need to delve into Hinduism, in which you will find drastic differences in the concept of divinity from Judeo-Christian concepts of the same. You may also need to delve in the concept of devotee/guru in Bhakti yoga. Those that have a hard time reading obscure Hindu philosophy, can delve into Jung's notion of transference and the archetype. Reductionism is the easy way out, but not the best path to understanding. Dsmi I am not proposing to "blame" the former followers. OTOH what I said above is that the ex-premies go to great efforts to prove that Rawat made claims about himself, when actually arriving to that conclusion based on these examples (in which he speaks about the God and guru, for example) is an obvious case of reductio ad absurdum. I don't know much about Kranenborg, but it is unfortunate that he makes the same mistake, probably because he may have merely reflected the opinions of Rawat's followers and his family, that unequivocally spoke of him as lord of the universe in Cameron's "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji" and other literature in the 70s. FYI, I will not have time to respond to any more comments until next weekend. --Daniella 19:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
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Hi Andries, the quote you cite is, I think, a combination from at least two sources. The first is given at http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/altaloma.htm and is reproduced from "Elan Vital" magazine, Vol II, Issue 1 - Spring 1978
Published by Divine Light Mission, P.O. Box 532, Denver CO 80201
Question and Answer with Maharaji at Alta Loma Terrace, Hollywood, California, August 15, 1971.
Some more of those quotes are from the book "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?" Edited by Charles Cameron, Introduction by Rennie Davis, Published in November 1973 by Bantam Books, Inc. © 1973 by Shri Hans Productions Several chapters have been transcribed and are available at http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/whoisgmj.htm - here's the context:
On August 1st, Guru Maharaj Ji, eight years old, stood in front of the thousands of devotees present at his father's funeral. The voice came again, saying: "This is the last I will tell you. You are he. You must take this Knowledge out to the world." "For the first time," says Guru Maharaj Ji, "I did not give satsang. The satsang just came and I began to speak: Dear children of God, why are you weeping? Haven't you learned the lesson that your master taught you? The Perfect Master never dies. Maharaj Ji is here, amongst you now." Immediately his mother, three elder brothers and all the mahatmas present, prostrated at the feet of the Perfect Master and received his blessings. A few months later, Guru Maharaj Ji delivered his first satsang as Satguru before hundreds of thousands of people in Delhi, India. He announced: "I have not come to establish a new religion. I have come to reveal the truth, knowing which you will be free. If you come to me with a guileless heart and sincere desire, I will give you eternal peace." In one of his early discourses, Satguru Maharaj Ji promised to spread the Knowledge of God to the entire world in his lifetime. Before a million devotees in New Delhi, he revealed his plan for a great "Peace Bomb." After weeping for some moments, he said:
"These tears are not because I am remembering my Father, but because I am feeling so much power in me. They are tears of strength. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come, the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the savior of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who come to me are already saved. Now it's your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? Give me your love, I will give you peace. Come to me, I will relieve you of your suffering. I am the source of peace in this world. All I ask of you is your love. All l ask is your trust. And what l can give you is such peace as will never die. I declare I will establish peace in this world. But what can I do unless men come to me with love in their heart and a keen wish to know peace and Truth?" Guru Maharaj Ji hasn't only been acclaimed by his own followers, numerous civic leaders, parliamentarians, professional people and others have praised the work which he has already accomplished at so young an age. Guru Maharaj Ji has been presented with the keys to the cities of New York, New Orleans, Oakland, and Monterey in the United States, and Kyoto in Japan. And the Mayor of Albany, New York, Erastus Coming II, wrote Guru Maharaj Ji:
While I do not have a formal Official Key to the City, your inspiration will unlock the hearts of the people of Albany so that no other key will be needed. Mayor Yorty of Los Angeles proclaimed June 22nd to be International Meditation Day in honor of Guru Maharaj Ji's work. In a speech given on the floor of the Connecticut General Assembly, State Representative John Fabrizio said it was "wonderful to see" Guru Maharaj Ji's Knowledge exert "such a tremendous positive influence" over so many lives. Hon. Paul Priolo, Assemblyman from Los Angeles, commended Guru Maharaj Ji for his "constructive effort to alleviate inward suffering." The General Assembly of the State of Rhode Island resolved that Guru Maharaj Ji "is imparting the true, spiritual experience and Knowledge of God ... bestowing on all, secrets of truth and direct experiences of God by revealing the primordial vibrations of all life." The Rev. Daniel Berrigan, S.J., wrote Guru Maharaj Ji:
You are undoubtedly aware that our need of spiritual sustenance is great. Many of our young people are without direction or hope, and our own churches are able to offer very little, being themselves camplicit in many of our social crimes. In the opinion of many of us, it would be a great blessing if you could at some time in the near future visit the United States. And the press? The Toronto Star of May 2nd, 1972 writes "The Guru of the minute is unquestionably Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ji, Savior of Mankind, Perfect Master, Lord of the Universe, revealer of Light, love, peace, unity and everything eternal. Even in photographs, He has the luminosity of a Buddha or a Christ." Perhaps the reporter glimpsed what the Connecticut General Assembly and the Wisconsin State Legislature both call Maharaj Ji's "radiant personality." ENDQUOTE
Modified by cq at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 18:10:53
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many thanks. I will take a better look tomorrow. Andries
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He wants specific citations from WIGMJ?. EPO just says that these quotes are of Rawat and that they're from the book but it doesn't cite the page number or where these statements were originally made. So she's saying someone told her we're lying, that this was really Rawat's family, Charles Cameron or others who worked on the book or even some guy name Brahmanand, whoever that was. - "Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......
- When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith." [1]
Modified by Jim at Sun, Feb 26, 2006, 18:14:17
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I think Ocker's managed to cite page numbers, bless him.But let's get realistic about this - Jossi wants a quote where Rawat says "I am the Perfect Master". But why? I bet he'll never find one instance where the Queen Elizabeth II has ever said "I am the Queen of England", but that doesn't mean to say that there's any doubt that it's one of her titles. "Perfect Master" was the title Rawat inherited when his father died, and Rawat never made any attempt during the years of DLM to deny that. I challenge Jossi to find anyone who can prove otherwise. I've said this before - but if Wikipedia is an encyclopedia worthy of the name, it cannot afford to fight shy of stating the facts just because the likes of Jossi won't face them.
Modified by cq at Mon, Feb 27, 2006, 07:12:43
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Chris, Your point's right but the fact is we did find one or two places where Rawat called himself Perfect Master, or at least called Guru Maharaj Ji the Perfect Master which amounts to the same thing unless someone's going to argue that he didn't call himself Guru Maharaj Ji either. (I know, there have been times when premies actually have tried that, relying as they have, on instances where Rawat's talked of GMJ in the third person. But those ridiculous efforts [not to say that the PM denials aren't just as ridiculous] fail because there are just too many places where he called himself GMJ)
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Is Jossi denying that Rawat wanted us to see him as being the "Perfect Master" of our time?
I'd like to see his evidence for such a stupid assertation.And as for Rawat calling himself Guru Maharaj Ji - don't worry. He signed himself as that!  http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/congr.jpg>
Related link: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/congr.jpg
Modified by cq at Mon, Feb 27, 2006, 14:14:12
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Good one, Chris! So there's proof "supreme" that Rawat called himself Guru Maharaj Ji. Well, we've already gotten out the quotes that he called Guru Maharaj Ji the Perfect Master. Case closed. Why don't you go ahead and ensure the editting reflects this on Wiki like you seemed to be planning? I'm sure you'll have a wonderful time. 
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Jim, if I'm to wade into the Wiki Wars of the Pro- vs Ex - Premies, mind if I ask you to clarify this current hot potato:http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/2745.html
Related link: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/2745.html
Modified by cq at Mon, Feb 27, 2006, 14:57:04
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Are you asking where I got the quote? From the book, of course. But I can't find the book now so I can't tell you where exactly. I'll say this much, if I said it was Rawat speaking, it was. Perhaps John or JM know or perhaps Ocker can find it.
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Where did the quotes come from?From the book, you say? Which book? "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?" Find the book!
(This means you, Jim!)
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That's a no-brainer. What about Arti? I mean whose flipping picture were we singing it to? Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to You
All bow and pray to You
Scriptures sing Your glory
Heaveny hosts sing Your praises
Your virtues are ever true
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev Bible, Gita, the Koran
Sing the glory of Your Name
They all sing the glory of Your Name
Angels sing Your great glory
Heavenly hosts sing Your praises
They find no end to Your fame
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev
Related link: http://ex-premie.org/pages/arti.htm
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I've traced two of the three quotes as you gave them back in '98:1)Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion?
This can be found at http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/altaloma.htm - it's approximately the 13th question from the top, and is reproduced from "Elan Vital" magazine, Vol II, Issue 1 - Spring 1978
Published by Divine Light Mission, P.O. Box 532, Denver CO 80201
Question and Answer with Maharaji at Alta Loma Terrace, Hollywood, California, August 15, 1971. 2)Guru Maharj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destoryer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us.
- don't know where this is from, but, like you, I'm pretty sure I've seen it in print before. Could well be a quote from Mata Ji, his mother. 3)I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy?
This is on pages 13 - 14 of the book "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?" Edited by Charles Cameron, Introduction by Rennie Davis, Published in November 1973 by Bantam Books, Inc. © 1973 by Shri Hans Productions (excerpts available at http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/whoisgmj.htm )
Modified by cq at Tue, Feb 28, 2006, 02:01:09
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Excellent find Chris, And so alarmingly depressing to remember where I first read it, on the Isle of Wight ferry back in 1978, heading home from Southampton having just spent five days in the K session that would bring me from death to immortality, and now in this 'Knowledge Pack' they give you on departure there's this goon in his soft-focus glossy photos and sharp suits (who I have just sincerely devoted the rest of my life to) telling me to 'keep on truckin' and 'hope you enjoy'!!! I think my terminal dismay probably kicked in right there, no matter how many years it took to get in touch with my real instincts..
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Hi cq, I lost my Knowledge packet long ago. Never could find it. Notice that he says "you have a duty to practice..." The revisionism is that we all had a total freedom of choice about what we could do once we received knowledge. Put that together with the knollige vow (that was DLM issued as far as I know), and that's a helleva lot of proof of something: - "Oh my Guru Maharaji, I dedicate myself to your Lotus Feet.
- I am weak and ignorant and am filled with the impurities of this world.
- Oh Guru Maharaji, please take my mind and purge me of the impurities I possess.
- Reveal to me the Knowledge of all knowledges.
- Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the Kingdom of Heaven within inside of me.
- Bring me from hate to love, from darkness to light, death to immortality.
- I will obey you implicitly and will never reveal this knowledge to anyone for any reason.
- I will keep in contact with you through my devotional love, satsang, meditation and service.
- Thank you my LORD for everything."
By the way, I posted this on the talk page of "Current Teachings of Prem Rawat" on Wikipedia and this was Jossi's response (I wasn't talking to him): FYI, anon: I have no intention to respond to your blather. ≈ jossi ≈ 15:15, Mar 3, 2005
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Feb 27, 2006, 17:31:11
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No Light Without MasterThe following discourse was given by Mata Ji, Mother of Guru Maharaj Ji, on
the 12th of March, 1972, at Panespo, Neuchatel, Switzerland.
A devotee of Satguru, of God, when he liquidates himself, or dissolves himself, or
effaces himself on the Lotus Feet of the Lord, he makes the Lord
agreeable in all respects. There is such a relationship between Lord
and devotee that is so pious, that is so emotional, that when a devotee
weeps he compels the Lord to weep. When a devotee cries for his Lord,
the Lord is so kind that He is compelled to come before His devotee.
The pleasure and pain, success and failure, sent by the Lord are just
like gifts for the devotee.
Brothers and sisters, today is Sunday. Today you are free from your office and home,
and each of you according to your faith and according to your belief
goes either to the temple, or mosque or church. You pray there
according to your belief, but the use and utility of religion is to
give perfect peace and bliss to the mind. From your infant age, from
your boyhood, you continue to go to temple, mosque, and church. You do
prayers, but your mind is not controlled, your mind is not steady. You
don't enjoy perfect peace and bliss. Why? You have to consider the
reasons for this. The condition of your mind is the same as it was
twenty years, thirty years before. If a boy goes to school, a primary
school, and if he continues to go for twenty years, twenty-five years,
staying in the same class, and if he does not progress, the parents
would certainly say something to that boy. After so many years, after
such a long time, he should have attained the highest qualifications,
the highest degree in the university. So isn't it strange that a man,
in the name of religion, goes to a temple, a mosque or a church, yet
the condition of his mind continues to be the same? There is no change.
Why? Today we have to consider this question.
When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incamates. He
takes a body and comes on this earth to teach us not a new religion,
but one and the same religion that is the religion of humanity which is
the same for all human beings. And what is the religion of all human
beings? It is the religion of love. But how will we learn to love all
human beings? Only when we come to know practically the one and only
source of love. What is that one and only source of love? God is the
only source of love. There is one God for the whole creation. This
whole creation is created by one God, and the way to realize this one
God is one and the same for all. And realization of God within oneself
is the only religion, for all human beings. We should consider why
human beings have become scattered in the name of religion, divided in
the name of religion. What is the reason? It is because we don't know
how to realize the divinity, how to realize that one God who is within
all of us. This one and the same God is sustaining the whole world, He
is sustaining the entire universe. Whether we are black or white,
whether we are small or big, whether we are wealthy or poor, the God
which is within us is one and the same for all. When human beings
forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole
universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowledge, the
practical way of realizing Him, and that is called real religion.
So, my children, the Supreme Master does not create a new religion. Rather, He
gives us the most ancient religion. This is the religion of humanity.
And now the time has come when that realized God who is within us from
the beginning of creation is here. The same Lord came as Vishnu, Ram,
Krishna, Jesus Christ and Buddha. They preached and gave practical
Knowledge of God. They spoke of one way. But, most ironically, we don't
appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth.
If you are a patient, only a living doctor can cure your disease. A photograph or
statue of a doctor who is dead, who has passed away, cannot cure your
disease. A king who is present and who is pleased with you can give you
wealth or any position. A king who is dead, who has passed from this
world, can give you nothing. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a
Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the
practical Knowledge of the real thing, the true Knowledge of God,
Knowledge of truth. Because truth is one, truth is eternal, truth is
all-pervading, truth is indestructible, and truth is the same for the
whole world. So, brothers and sisters, only a living master, only a
living Perfect Master, is able to enlighten all human beings.
A practical Knowledge of divinity is Knowledge of one's own self. What is the form
of God according to all Holy scriptures? The form of God, the form of
the Master, is light, and that light is self-effulgent Light. From that
light, this whole universe gets Light: the sun, moon, stars, and fire
all get light from that supreme light that is called Divine Light. And
that supreme light, the light of God, is within all of us. But we don't
know that light, we don't know that divinity, and therefore our mind is
unsteady, our mind is fickle. So when the Perfect Master comes on this
earth, he gives us practical Knowledge of that light. The same light,
the same Knowledge, has been referred to in the Bible as white stone.
Jesus used to distribute this white stone. What is it? White stone is
the same light, the self-effulgent light, which is within us. When that
supreme power comes in human body He is called Satguru. And Satguru,
only Satguru, is able to give practical Knowledge of that light. What
is the meaning of Satguru? In Hindi, "gu" means dark and "ru" means
light. One who dispels darkness by giving us practical Knowledge of
light, is called Satguru.
So, my children, if you don't go before the Supreme Master, you can never get
light, you can never get that supreme Knowledge. In India, there was a
Satguru, a Perfect Master called Lord Kabir. In a poem he says,
"Everyone knows it is good to have a purpose, a destination, and work
towards fulfilling it. But man, do you know your destination? Do you
know your goal? First, know your destination. And then walk. Then your
life will be fulfilled." Similarly, human beings don't know that light,
human beings don't know that soul, human beings don't know that spirit.
They read of the spirit, they talk of God, they read of God, they hear
of God, but they don't know God. So God Himself comes to give practical
Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is selfeffulgent
light, eternal light, all-pervading light. That light of God has
engulfed the entire universe and the same light, since that light is
all-pervading, is within us. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives
practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color,
religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with
reverence, with love, and with faith. May God bless you.
Modified by Ocker at Mon, Feb 27, 2006, 00:21:09
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A few months later, Guru Maharaj Ji delivered his first
satsang as Satguru before hundreds of thousands of people in
Delhi, India. He announced: "I have not come to establish a
new religion. I have come to reveal the truth, knowing which
you will be free. If you come to me with a guileless heart
and sincere desire, I will give you eternal
peace."In one of his early discourses, Satguru Maharaj Ji promised to
spread the Knowledge of God to the entire world in his
lifetime. Before a million devotees in New Delhi, he
revealed his plan for a great "Peace Bomb." After weeping
for some moments, he said: "These tears are not because I am remembering my Father, but
because I am feeling so much power in me. They are tears
of strength. I have come so powerful. I have come for the
world. Whenever the great come, the worldly oppose them.
Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear
should hear that the savior of humanity has come. There
should be no chance for anyone to say they haven't heard
of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who come to me are already
saved. Now it's your duty to save others. Shout it on the
streets. Why be shy?Give me your love, I will give you peace. Come to me, I will
relieve you of your suffering. I am the source of peace
in this world. All I ask of you is your love. All I ask is
your trust. And what l can give you is such peace as will
never die. I declare I will establish peace in this
world. But what can I do unless men come to me with love
in their heart and a keen wish to know peace and
Truth?"
Modified by Ocker at Mon, Feb 27, 2006, 00:18:45
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