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Hi HammyTis good that there are now options across the board for people to post, if for nothing else it keeps the EV monitors busy Oh yes, we must not forget the EV monitors. When I was a fully paid up premie (only 5 years ago!) would I have wanted that 'service'? Well, it would have demonstrated that you were loyal and stable, and that you were thought trustworthy. On the other hand, if I had read a fraction of what I have read, I don't think I would have lasted very long. In fact, that is what happened - I was emailed bits of the then Forum (whatever number it was then, 3?) and it was enough to crack that towering edifice I had built of Maharaji as the Lord of the Universe, with all that implies. A warm thank you to the person who fed me those Forum snippets back then! -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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I'm so glad you brought that up. This is something I've been wanting to ask about.
For those of you who left the cult after reading the forum and/or EPO, do you think that you would still be hanging in there had it not been for the information on the internet? My theory is that the seed of doubt must have already been there and the information just put you over the edge, but I'm just guessing, so I would love to hear what you have to say about it.
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In 1999 when I first read EPO there was only Mishler's radio interview, and a few unsubstantiated allegations of empty brandy bottles in Rawat's trash. The other stuff was an analysis of his claim to a lineage of Perfect Masters. It was questioning my belief in that lineage that I think pushed me out, but I must admit I wanted to stop believing.
My choice was:-
1. Rawat was the Messiah and I would never be worthy of him.
2. Rawat wasn't the Messiah and I was free to live my life as my desires and conscience dictated.
I chose 2, and subsequent evidence confirms I made the right choice, OR, the Perfect Master is so perverse that he deliberately makes it almost impossible to trust him in which case the Perfect Master can go fuck himself.
John.
Modified by JHB at Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 12:47:44
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Hi AuntyFor those of you who left the cult after reading the forum and/or EPO, do you think that you would still be hanging in there had it not been for the information on the internet? My theory is that the seed of doubt must have already been there and the information just put you over the edge, but I'm just guessing, so I would love to hear what you have to say about it. Oh yes, the seed of doubt was there all right - it had been growing I guess for a couple of years at least. But as you say, the info put me over the edge, and encouraged me to have faith in my own misgivings. In other words, the saving grace was that the mind is a doubtmaker, but I had been suppressing those doubts since the Living Lord had been commanding us to not leave room for doubt in the mind. Once I had the courage to face what I was actually feeling, which was those doubts about Maharaji, then I allowed those doubts to show me the obvious truth - that Maharaji's message was just froth, and what I thought was surrender to the lotus feet of Satguru was in fact surrender to the most abject and debasing belief system. So you're right - I would say the then Forum was a catalyst, but not the cause, of my leaving Maharaji. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Thirty years ago(!) what got me about the premies was the deep easy smile, and shiny faces. I wanted some of that, narcisist that I am. I wanted an audience too! Same five years ago with exes on the internet ago. They were so self-knowing and could make competent statements about things that I had to keep away from-things like The Knowledge, what they felt about it, what they personally had noticed. I wanted some of that too. I am so easily led. Love Bryn
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....do you think that you would still be hanging in there had it not been for the information on the internet?......
Sure, why not?
I'd successfully put myself through the crucible of never have doubt in your mind years & years before. The only way I could find to achieve that blissful state was by literally forcing myself not to think about the inconsistencies. After many years it becomes an automatic reflex to do that, & a belief system which is based on an association between an involuntary physical function (breathing) & an individual (Prem Rawat) is very difficult to question, until of course the individual is revealed beyond any shadow of a doubt to be a worldclass hypocrite.
Loyalty is one of the virtues I have a high regard for, & despite the fact that Rawat often came across as a complete tosser during those events, which was the only time I ever had anything to do with him from around '85 onwards, it was largely a case of ours not to reason why etc, for me.
I mean if I'd managed to swallow him looking like Liberace at his wedding & all that, I didn't have too much of a problem with the Armani suits of later years, quite the contrary. I'm partial to an Armani suit myself, though my one & only linen number got wrecked by a fuckwit drycleaner, & I'm more of a cardigan man these days.
For your info Auntie Bea, I'll have you know that I'd poured the paraquat of Holy Name on my seed of doubt around 1972. That it sprang back into life in 2000 is entirely due to the only medium of mass communication which Rawat found he couldn't manipulate to his own advantage.
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I'd successfully put myself through the crucible of never have doubt in your mind years & years before I would forever find myself adjusting how I perceived maharaji to fit in with the changing image he was presenting to the world. My deluded excuses were that the world would not want a Hindu guru to rule it, then the world would not want any religious leader to rule over it anyway. As time went on I convinved myself that the world was simply not ready for knowledge while all the time maharaji needed to hide so that he would not be subjected to attacks from the world in general as so many others before him had been. I forever waited for the moment that he would finally reveal who he was but as time went on I realised that was never going to happen and perhaps I was one of a few that knew who he was and should be grateful. Eventually I felt he was probably not god incarnate at all but when I read EPO on the suggestion of a friend, it struck me just how deep my belief in him had been planted. EPO definitely finally convinced me of the reality and began the process that set me free.
Modified by MarkT at Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 18:28:40
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Mark,
I could have written your post word for word. It exactly describes my thoughts during the changes through the 80s and 90s to finding EPO in 1999. I always assumed that there was a divine master plan, and even occasionally, as some change in presentation occurred, I would think 'That's brilliant, Maharaji'.
John.
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Before I even received knowledge I found the use of the Rolls Royce a difficult one to come to terms with but the explanation that drifted down was that last time a prince had been expected but he had come as a carpenter and this time people were expecting a carpenter but he had come as a prince. I was never comfortable with that explanation but you come to accept any explanation if the seed is planted and then the time allowed for it to take root. I suppose that set me up to accept whatever was to follow. Through the years it was always the mysterious premies behind the scenes that were blamed for failings and maharaji would say that he had taken over managing affairs to improve propagation but in the end for me there were only empty halls and the endless cycle of videos repeating the same thing. What I found most interesting about EPO was that it provided an alternative explanation for the changes, an explanation that once I lost my fear of thinking for myself again, made so much more sense.
Modified by MarkT at Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 14:20:56
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Pat, that's exactly the way I was. Were you raised Catholic by any chance?  So many things in the cult I put into the "do not consider" filing cabinet in the back of my brain, the main one being the recognition that Maharaji's "gift" was not what it was cracked up to be, and that he got everything, and I got nothing, except the right to have complete, unquestioning faith in him -- which I guess is something, but not much. But I left long before the internet, although I think the internet allowed me to work through some stuff about that era, things I hadn't completely worked through.
Modified by Joe at Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 18:36:44
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do you think that you would still be hanging in there had it not been for the information on the internet?Yes, I really think I would still be a premie today, if it hadn't been for EPO. It was finding out so many things (mistress/pedofile cover up/drinking/lying in the case accidental death and so on....) that I found unbelievable and shocking. In fact I wanted to justify it all, and hoped there was a good explanation somehow. It was all very sudden, rather than gradual. I wanted to prove that the info on EPO was just a bunch of lies. And the more I tried to prove that, the more the opposite happened! And I spent hours thinking about it, trying to work out in my own mind and conscience, how this could really be an acceptable way for M to behave. I asked a PAM-ish friend, who confirmed the truth of it all, and who then justified it with M can do what he likes, h'es the lotu, it's all a test etc. If it's all a test, why the big cover up and secrecy? Surely, by keeping it all secret, M&EV know it's not acceptable. If not, why have they tried to shut down these sites? What's wrong with telling the truth about M? Reading the forum was a great help in getting my head around it. It's a lot to take on board when it's so sudden, and there's a big feeling of betrayal, and being taken for a mug. And after that there's a feeling of anger. I think the forum is a fantastic support for ex-ing premies, and really helpful. I don't know about 'seed of doubt'. I think all premies have doubts at different times. What motivated me to check out EPO was that I had been to a programme that seemed like something out of The Stepford Wives - completely false, an orchestrated show. The rest is history! Now I'm really glad that ignored the directive to stay away from these sites.
Modified by Anna at Tue, Dec 13, 2005, 18:34:52
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Hi Everyone! And thanks, Mike and John, for providing a forum with a chance for some honesty, intelligence,and hey, humor too! About the effect of online information--I can say that I was definitely wearing thin as a premie, and finding it harder and harder to keep up the house of cards--but yes, once I learned the information on epo, it was a landslide. Especially the bit about the multi-million dollar luxury yacht! But plenty of other stuff too. I had been intuiting that something was wrong about it all, but the information on the internet made it tangible and there was no going back for me after that. That's one of the things that was most damaging about the "knowledge" trip as far as I'm concerned--the way it discouraged trusting your own intuition! Labelling things as "doubts" was very clever, because who wants to doubt anything?! But if your gut feeling about something gets suppressed or denied, now that's a big red flag! Or it ought to be! I was glad that so much of what I had been having uneasy intuitions about was all vindicated by being able to see behind the stage sets and hype, and get the straight dope on who this man (Rawat) really is! Not that everything on the internet is God's truth either, but it sure allows peope to see different points of view and sort facts from fictions as best one can! I'd like to hear from exes here--what you are doing now to develop and trust your intuitions about things? Anyone? Best, Shelagh
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Hi. I really agree that the self-doubt that Rawat taught was a really insidious thing. Actually, after I got out, it was one of the things that really made me angry -- that I really had been feeling uneasy and saw things in the cult that bothered me, but that I tried to look the other way, because I wanted to have faith in Rawat. I think people who have been in a cult tend to have highly developed abilities to tell if they are being manipulated. After I left the cult, I met with a therapist who specialized in cults, and he said that former cult members can tell pretty quickly if they are being conned. Maybe they can't say exactly why, but they just can feel that there is something wrong. It just seems it takes practice to trust that feeling, especially when in the cult you had a lot of practice ignoring it. For me, I think I tend to learn by watching other people. When I see people having confidence in what they feel and think, willing to admit mistakes and move on, I tend to think I'd like to be like that.
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Hi Joe! Yes, "the willingness to admit mistakes and move on"--I like that! That seems to be crucial to the efficacy and integrity of something or someone. I'd trust a person who goofs up and can laugh about it far more readily than any Miss or Mr Perfection! (it's this more than anything that irks me about President Bush--but that's a different story--or is it?) Thanks for your response. Shelagh
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Hi John and Mike
This looks great, and thanks for doing it.
EV monitors, I wonder if they monitor the new premie site as well!
Anna
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Gotta keep an eye on Mr Mind.
Re EV forum, I would say I'm well impressed with the forum mod there, originally my membershiip was deleted as hamzen, but after sending an honest e-mail he changed his mind and re-instated me, and more impressive was his attitude in the e-mail. In fact I could honestly state it's the first real human communication I've had online with a premie ever, apart from very momentary blips with Carlos, and pleased to see the culture there is much less groupthink nowadays.
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Where's that picture of the "unlit match?"
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