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Premies can't discuss who Rawat really is, cos there's them what knows, and then there's the rest.
Simple.
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Hi BrynAnd so Premies are left with their Lord of the Universe concept orbiting endlessly in their own private memories with no way out! Yes, nice quip, both in your original post and in its new incarnation as lead post of a new thread. I like your analysis too, very poignant. I am still in touch with many fully paid-up premies. What I see is in fact happening, is that you now have two tiers or categories of premies: 1) Those who still believe he is the Lord, the giver of the Grace which will make Knowledge work, and see that he is toning this down purely for public consumption. But it is only a public relations ruse, and the true cognescenti understand that, and have no problem pretending that he isn't to the public and those premies in tier (2) below, premies-lite. But to themselves, and also to others in this group (1), they happily assert that he is in fact God incarnate and the whole nine yards. This last bit is important, because it is not only 'in their own private memories' that the Lord of the Universe concept orbits, but amongst their peers also, this group I am calling tier (1). To be in the company of group (1) premies is like being in a nudge-nudge wink-wink know-what-I-mean Python sketch. If I had not been there myself, and knew all the cues, double-speak and innuendos, then I probably would not pick up on this. 2) The second group of premies are those who take the public relations 'I am just an inspirational speaker' line at face value, and genuinely do not see him as the Lord. This group of premies, what you might call 'premies-lite', cannot understand what ex-premies are on about, nor why group 1 premies are so fierce in their denunciation of the 'hate group'. It is all a non-issue to them. A few points follow from this analysis: -- Clearly most group 1 premies got Knowledge in the 70's or early 80's; most group 2 premies-lite got Knowledge later. -- The numbers of premies-lite is not that big. The reason I think is that if you don't see Maharaji as the Lord, then there is not much to the belief-system to hold you, and the Knowledge techniques themselves are nothing special - just one of hundreds of meditation styles you can pick up of the shelf anywhere. So premies-lite tend to either drift away; or practise K in a very minor way; or else they become aware of full premie-think (group 1) with its mystique and frisson, and graduate up into it. -- You can clearly see that the 'I am merely an inspirational speaker' line is for public consumption only, if you witness Maharaji himself in a group of premies who are all in group 1. I have not been there myself for some years obviously, but in the mid 1990's I was there, and it was crystal clear that to a group of believers who were all in 'Lord of the Universe' mode that he was the Lord for sure. I am reliably informed that is still the case, and that to an observer of Maharaji in a private meeting with group 1 premies he can trust, there would be no doubt that he is still the Lord. -- I think the premies that have the most problems with the mind splitting you refer to, and to whom your analysis applies in spades, are those premies who got Knowledge in the 70's or early 80's, and are living on their own or at least isolated from other group 1 premies. They believe that this change from Lord of the Universe to inspirational speaker is really coming from Maharaji, and what they should be following. This group who are on their own, really do have the problem you outline. For them, their Lord is only a private memory with no way out, and some of them I know personally have real issues with this, leading to severe breakdowns, and a destructive and dysfunctional life. The cure for them is EITHER to exorcise this private memory (takes courage and determination, but is hugely rewarding if you can see it through) OR to get into the company of group 1 premies and get peer support that it is still fine to believe he is the Lord, and it is all lila anyway. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Hi,
but don't you think about the possibility, that there are people who see through and still are helping to make the show cause their economic existence is based on PR? I can not believe that for example Raja ji does't not see his brother on the human level or his kids. Okay PR is the big Boss, the Patriarch, he is the leader of the tribe but they must see through that he is not what he at least was promoted in the 70' und 80' ciao.....wolfie
Modified by wolfie at Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 03:41:11
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I too am sure that there are people who are in it purely for the status and money, and Rajaji is the obvious example.
John.
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Good point, Wolfie on the financial interests. There are definately a group of premies who have gained financially by association with the Lord and if he crashes, so do they, at least to some extent. Isn't there a relatively large group of people who might consider themselves premies, but they have drifted away so much that it's all vaguely in the background but still there? I mean Rawat has lost over 90% of his followers and an awful lot of them do not consider themselves "ex-premies." These people might even show up to an event now and then, have a picture of the Lord on the wall, but otherwise are in a kind of limbo with respect to the cult. I actually think that's a large group. And regarding group 2, do you think it is the intent of both Rawat and the premies in group 1, that people will get inticed into group 2 and then, through some unexplained experiential mechanism, (or through "grace" somehow make the "leap" to the understanding that Rawat is the Lord? Or do you think they don't care, and figure the fewer people in group 1, the more "special" they are, and the more room there is at the lotus feet?
Modified by Joe at Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 12:37:52
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There's a lot out there (I reckon, judging by my experience) who don't really practice anymore but can't quite believe there was 'nothing in it'. That is, they have taken on board a lot of the critiques of Rawat, but can't let go of their experiences as a premie. Typically darshan experiences seem to cause the floating voter a problem - 'well, something cosmic happened, you know, I don't know what it was but it was definitely something'. The 'New Age' (in all its glory) seems to offer them a kinda refuge. I.e. 'Maharaji' + (a couple of archangels, the odd reiki master, Don Juan, and 'The Celestine Prophecy' ).Cobble all that together and you have enough deranged belief systems to take a couple of lifetimes (belief in reincarnation essential) to figure out.
Modified by moley at Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 16:17:00
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I knew some way back in the late 70s early 80s. A couple of them started out as ashram premies believing in orthodox Rawatism. Then they moved out of the ashram and gradually started drifting into other ideas. So they started believing in all of these other magical things – channeling, ESP, healing, other kinds of masters or whatever, but somehow Prem Rawat was still in the mix. I think they also kind of thought that Rawat had gone south and gotten corrupted or something like that, but that he was still some kind of special being with special powers. Being the curious kind of person that I am, I was actually at one of those channeling things when I was in the ashram together with some ex-ashramies. Well it's a long story. But I remember driving a yellow submarine for the divine kids in a van down to Florida with one of them. At some point he started telling me all of his doubts, which were largely based on some stories he had heard about Prem from someone he knew on the inside – money scandals, Prem and Raja Ji having sex and making babies with other women. I guess it all more or less turned out to be true. I suppose he was thinking he needed a master or guide more on the up and up. He became a spirit guide himself later on. Still is. I looked at his website and he doesn't say a word about Rawat on it, so who knows what he thinks these days. I'm sure it's in the magical mix somewhere though.
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The "Just in case" group. Just in case he might really be LOTU and just in case I need salvation. I know several. Karen
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May have been myself for a brief period, like about may last 2 years in the ashram.
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I mean, the big cheese changed his name to Prem Rawat be less cultish, just wondering if raja ji did the same. Presumably, raja ji also has a normal name somewhere. Anybody know what it is? rgj
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Big doofus? Playboy parasite? Claudia's reject? "White Powder Guy?" What?
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Dharam singh Rawat or something close to that.
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They believe that this change from Lord of the Universe to inspirational speaker is really coming from Maharaji, and what they should be following. Well, this makes no sense at all if that's what they're thinking. I'd suggest that somebody tell them to sh*t or get off the pot. What is it they want from Maharaji, a Lord or an inspirational speaker? When it became apparent to me that Maharaji was neither God nor capable of revealing Him, that's when my interest in Rawat began to seriously diminish. An inspirational speaker is not what I needed, or wanted, from Maharaji. Heck, we've got Doctor Phil for thaaat. Who needs Maharaji? In fact when it comes to inspirational thinking, he's quite pathetic, isn't he?
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As an inspirational speaker Prem is pretty crappy. Good ones run rings around him. Or so I assume. Actually the only inspirational speaker I’ve ever seen is Tom Cruise on Magnolia. Respect the ...
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I just never saw Maharaji in that inglorious light. This is the guy who was the latest and greatest of prophets. He was Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, and Buddha all rolled into one. The Messiah and Avatar intertwined, possesor of all 64 powers, Greater Than God! I mean, seriously, if Big M no longer has that going for him, what good is he? An inspirational speaker he's not. He never actually was. But at least as the Lord Of The Friggin' Universe we could cut him some slack - "Yeah, maybe he don't sound so hot, but heck, he does have the grace of God in his hands, so what if he talks like a dimwit - he's got all 64 powers! But now, after he's disavowed all that, what's he got left? Zilch! Cripes, it was easier for him to pull off being LOTU! At least, even if you hadn't "realized" it, he could still string you along. But as an inspirational speaker? With no special mojo? Heheheh. Kinda makes you laugh, doesn't it.
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I thought that was a great post Mike, despite the fact that you missed at least two categories. 
Since you were at category one meetings in the 90’s, I have a question. How was it clear that Prem was the lord at those meetings. Did he refer to himself differently or in some other way act lordacious? Did he have people fawning over him? Turn frogs into bunnies?
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Mike, In at least two of the programs during 2005 that I attended Rawat referred to himself as "Master". One of the programs, Amaroo, was for premies exclusively. The other was a program in Miami that I believe aspirants were invited to, but I could be wrong. I guess that "Master" is some kind of compromise between LOTU and inspirational speaker. But he expressed this in a petulant manner in Miami saying something to the effect that "I'm the Master and just grow up and accept that". If there were aspirants present I would have been curious as to their reactions to this. Kabir
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Hi EveryoneIt is a fascinating parlour game (or parlor game - see my article on Brit/US spelling) to divide premies up into categories, and see how many you can get! I think by 'premie' I was not just meaning someone who has got Knowledge, but someone for whom K is still important in their lives. So given that, I still think my two are the main ones. And yes, definitely the professional premie who has invested so much time and energy into Maharaji, and lives off that world (whether materially or mentally) that they cannot consider leaving is possibly another group. My purpose was not so much to categorize premies as such, but to reply to Bryn's original brilliant post that many premies who still believe Maharaji is the Lord still do so as a group, and not just as a private affair. My concern and sympathy are for those premies who still believe in LOTU but are isolated enough to have to do so privately - they have big problems, and I have been talking to some of them recently, and so know of what I speak! And of course I remember vividly my own time in this area of pain and confusion. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Hi, I like it what you say. But why have we found the way out?
Maybe you find a good eyplanation for that, I will think about it.
Maybe I accepted that I'm not better than anyone else or that there are a lot of people living a satisfied life without having knowledge, but why this happend to me or why did I take that step. Maybe what brought me meditation was too normal or simple, that I could't understand anymore the big show PR made about. Maybe I haven't lost the abillitiy to be honsest to myself. love...........wolfie
Modified by wolfie at Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 03:10:39
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For someone who believes Rawat is the Lord, getting out requires considering the possibility that he isn't. So first of all the thought that he isn't has to intrude into the person's consciousness, and then the automatic believer's reaction to it has to be stilled long enough for some rational response to the possibility to appear in our minds. Once that happens I think the person is on their way to deciding he isn't the Lord, and being free to think about the whole trip in a new way.
John.
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Hi JohnFor someone who believes Rawat is the Lord, getting out requires considering the possibility that he isn't. So first of all the thought that he isn't has to intrude into the person's consciousness, and then the automatic believer's reaction to it has to be stilled long enough for some rational response to the possibility to appear in our minds. Yes, what you described is certainly how the exit process usually starts, or even has to start. But for those of us who truly believed he was the Lord for so long, that belief can be rooted deep. Even a total rational conviction that Rawat is not the Lord is often not enough to address that belief held at an emotional, even at a somatic, level. That is why I used the word 'exorcise' in my post above, since for a fully paid-up premie there is often more to Rawatism than just an intellectual assent, and a real root-and-branch houseclean is in order. That is one of the values of Forums like these, where we can write about how we feel, and read others, and so build on our intellectual conviction that he is not the Lord, or indeed any kind of master worth the name, until his Lordship and his belief-system are completely out of our systems, and the air is sweet again. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Some really great posts here. It made me think of my own journey to sweet air. Though it probably was more complicated, I can isolate three events that coalesced to form the bridge back to rationality.
First of all I had been living in the ashram and done fundraising and had been exposed to a really large dose of hyocrisy. When the ashrams shut down I was pretty turned-off from the whole premie community, though I hadn‘t yet made the obvious leap of laying responsibility at the feet of he who deserved it the most.
Because of this repellent feeling in me, I began to seek out the company of other people and find other interests. I quickly realised how much warmer, wiser and genuine my new companions were as compared to the average seeker of truth duck in premieland. They weren‘t hiding from life and the emotions it brought. They were embracing these things and were greater for it.
Then I entired college. With all of this stuff swimming in me, I was drawn to learn more about the roots of the belief system which I had emmbraced. I took several courses in South Asian studies, Hindu and Vedic texts, and studied the Sanskrit language. Well that just burned the whole thing out of me. Being able to put Rawatism in context with the rich cultural, philosophical and religious traditions of India just made it crystal clear that I had been handed a superficial, cocktail party distillation of HInduism and its complex traditions.
Still, as Mike said, the intellect and perhaps even the emotion had been satisfied, but there was some strange deeper neurological pathways that were still holding on. On occasional quiet moments I had those feelings of guilt that I had blown it. Hence my journey to hell, as I‘ve mentioned in other posts. I simply decided for myself that Rawat was a muzzafooka, boring as hell and the possibilities for life that he presented were imprisoning and sufficating. Whoever he was and whatever he was offering, I didn‘t want it. If that is what the LOTU expects from his creation, then fuck him.
Of course by now the whole thing is ridiculous to me. But it is really amazing the power and tenacity such ingrained beliefs can have, even when they completely conflict with one‘s own intellectual understanding. It must be one of those old brain new brain things. Things like loyalty and the ability to follow a flock were and still are probably important survival instincts for us humans.
Aunt Dant
Modified by aunt bea at Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 05:50:48
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Dave, for instance, left many years ago but cannot stand to listen to Rawat. I don't have a problem listening to him (although his voice is far from the sweetest of sounds), but I still get an emotional reaction to the devotional songs.
"Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji,
Always remember his every word is holy"
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...to the devotional songs." So do I John.Why do you think the songs still affect you?
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It's just deep self-inflicted conditioning. Songs, especially the many beautiful ones premies have written about their love for Maharaji, have a deep resonance with emotions, so it's not surprising the hearing the songs rekindles the emotions. I have read, and can appreciate, that some ex-premies turn the love they had for Maharaji to the usual disembodied God or Jesus. I can't do that and be true to myself, so for me the emotions just sort of hang around without a target.
John the bundle of flesh, bone, thoughts and emotions
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....for what seems a very honest reply.I understand what you mean .For the moment I prefer the disembodied "loving higher power". The alternative ( atheist or whatever) is too desolate and bleak. For me those so called "devotional" feelings were wonderful. The combination of the music and a " Lord" were the perfect combination to keep me hooked.I loved "Arti" and all the early days singing at the Palace of Peace.Singing was something I had always enjoyed. My favourite ended something like " though to you I'm one of so many, You are my Everything". Remember that one ?
Modified by Lexy at Fri, Feb 10, 2006, 10:50:51
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That is why I used the word 'exorcise' in my post above, since for a fully paid-up premie there is often more to Rawatism than just an intellectual assent, and a real root-and-branch houseclean is in order. When I think about all of the thousands of thoughts I had about Rawat and all of his isms, it seemed to be a constant effort to exorcise them all. Good word, Mike (with the Catholic connotation out of it). It can take a very long, long time to deconstruct the belief-system -- wrong-thought by wrong-thought. The good news is that is doesn't take forever or even the rest of one's life to relieve one's system of him. But, there is the love attachment, which for me was very difficult to get over for a time. I'll bet it's daunting for a premie, who even on a vague, peripheral basis, is entertaining doubts about M. They might ask themself (especially in middle age): "If I do this, really leave, how long will it take me to be rid of him in my mind and heart?" Difficult stuff. Doable, but hard. Thanks.
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 13:41:09
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In observing my own "exorcism" and that of others, it seems to go something like this: Right after you leave the cult, it's really disorienting and there are all kinds of emotions. I think most people just kind of start forgetting about it and moving on but the "exorcism" hasn't taken place. If you let some years go by, and then deal with it, the exorcism is quick, and relatively painless. So the "Joe formula" for getting rid of the Rawat cult, is the leave, laugh about it, talk about it, and have as much fun in your life as you can, and then after about five years, when you have a bit of distance, you can yank it out by the roots pretty easily and painlessly, looking at it with the cold eye of objectivity. Anybody think that's a pattern?
Modified by Joe at Thu, Feb 09, 2006, 14:56:23
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Hi JoeI like your prescription, but the problem with uncle Joe's 'forumula' is that you need to spend 5 years or so forgetting about Rawat - laughing and 'moving on' - before the exorcism. I am not sure I could do that. People are different, of course, but I had to carry out the exorcism before I could truly laugh and have fun in my life again. I do think, though, that many premies who have walked away in the past, and just assigned their time with Maharaji to oblivion, would benefit hugely from returning to Forums like this and carrying out the exorcism finally. It probably does come out by the roots pretty easily then. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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I agree. This might partly depend on where people are in terms of age and life experience when they leave, and how involved they were while they were in. For me, I think the first few years after the cult, I spent trying to get my life together..you know, graduate school, career, coming out, all that stuff. I was really concentrated on that -- and also enjoying and exploring all I had missed in the ashram, especially movies, music, reading, art, politics, etc. I also got back involved with my family, spending quite a bit of time, especially with a couple of my siblings, my sister in particular. See, I left the cult and the ashram at the same time. So it was a pretty dramatic change on a physical, as well as an emotional level. That was clearly different for you. Also, somehow, you got advanced degrees and careers, and relationships, etc., while you were a premie. That didn't happen for me; I had really left the regular world entirely for 10 years. If those things had happened while I was a premie I wouldn't have had that to concentrate on after I left and I probably could not have put off the exorcism. But even with that, in 1997, when EPO first appeared, I looked at it all again, and some of the same emotions came up, but got dealt with very quickly. At that point, it was more for me a curiosity as to why those feelings were there, what they were, etc. It's then that I really got interested in cult and belief phenomena in general. It was a lot easier to do all that because with distance there was no fear anymore (or not much after about 24 hours), and I had a lot more confidence in myself.
Modified by Joe at Fri, Feb 10, 2006, 12:41:07
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Hi Mike and everyone, It is the sheer depth of the whole thing that suddenly struck me. Like most of us I never really realised to what extent my mind could be influenced. Given the liberality of psychology in which we live, I ,like many others naturally assumed that knowing stuff meant that I had some ideas, and then changed them as and when I realised that they didn't quite work for me.(sort of thing). But here with rawatism I see there arises a situation where one person can actually intellectually checkmate another. Now that is frightening. I speculate that for the semi-consciously religious premie (group 1!) the door to a certain sort of mental development has been closed for them:without intervention, probably forever. Even your more secular group 2's imo will be operating some sort of worldview system and I imagine the luminous presence of the rawat phantom will also lurk in that somewhere, albeit as a sanitised and less conscious trigger. Their meditation experience will have see to that. Once again what strikes me is that this is mind control at a very forceful level. And yes, as you say, the urge for individuals to seek affirmation from a group must be urgent. It must be an imense relief from the atavistic itch of the LOTU phantom to have the demon illuminated for a few precious moments.. Hence Fort Lauderdale. Banzai!! Geronimo!!! Credit cards to the fore! It is amazing to me that, all this specific influence is achieved by, at root, the effect of one man's language on another. (I admit there is more). " I mean no ones forcing me to meditate. No one makes me go to festivals" " If you like it fine. If you don't fine" etc etc . Beware I realise now. I am struck by the power of religious language to live and influence at a visceral level. It supports my present perspective that all knowledge is embodied knowledge, and that language physically conditions for better or worse what a person is capable of doing. Mr Rawat is using techniques of persuasion with great force, and it IS possible to get knee-capped by him in very specifc ways One more thing: There is a group of affluent premies for whom Rawat and his wanderings nicely structure their craving for tourism and the prestige of long voyages.. Love Bryn
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I wasn't born knowing anything about devotion.I knew nothing at all about devotion until Mr Rawat started talking suggestively :"please please teach me devotion..I'm ready to start". Later, Prem Rawat had no idea at all what would be the consequences to a western mind (me)if after 15 years inculcation he just turned off the juice. Personally I think the result would have been a full blown obsession. Of course exes got out before the process was complete-I think even Rawat would agree on that. Those who stayed in got themselves returned to themselves, but returned only courtesy of the Guru who operated the whole process for them.To me, who did it on my own, those premie selves that came back look distinctly tainted."we (premies) are just ourselves now, we stand alone now same as exes and everyone else". Hmmm. I read all Ron Geaves stuff and emailed with him about the evolution of DLM etcetera, and his arguments were all directed toward the idea that Rawat, by being a totally intuitive spirit had finally contextualised His movement in the post-modern western world! Bollocks Ron, he was just an opportunist chancer and his charisma experiment, for all he knows, may have slammed the door permanently on a lot of good minds. Love Bryn
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