|
|
|
"Knowledge works." I always wonder what people mean when they say that. I think there are two possibilities: (1) The sustained practice of the Knowledge techniques have transformed my psyche from ordinary human ignorance to the perpetual bliss of Ultimate Truth Consciousness. or: (2) I feel a peaceful stress release whenever I manage to practice, which isn't all that often really. or: maybe something else?
|
|
|
|
Not unlike experiencing a mixture of light acid early in a trip, or half an e, or some good lebanese gold. I have no doubt that if I was making it my prime 24/7 focus as I was as a premie it would go up to equivalent of the last third of an acid trip, or one ecstacy tablet, or smoking lebanese gold all day, as it did then.
I think hazarding a guess it alters my bio-chemistry is a no brainer.
There are other effects too, but they're the easiest ones for me to do an equivalence on.
|
|
|
|
Usually 2, but at times I seem to see an intelligence in the light. I've modified M's light technique. I go to sleep with Mack's earplugs from Walgreen's listening to my breath until I go to sleep. It does a great job of stopping my thoughts. I've only known the Ultimate Truth while on LSD and then I can't remember it.
|
|
|
|
Hi John, Welcome to the wide open world! I would welcome you to the world of ex's, but that isn't really any kind of cohesive club. That's one reason I like it here -diversity of experiences and opinions. About "K" working without Prem; I see light without doing any techniques, I experience what we used to call "The Name" without doing any techniques and so on. What I have found since leaving Rawat is that my inner experiences have actually grown greatly. I don't go into it here on this forum much, because it is mostly OT. But just to alert any active premies reading this, people that leave Rawat can still have profound mystical experiences without the aid of Rawat! Mine are better than ever. I don't need any kind of intermediary between me and PC (Prime Creator - by what ever name you want to use). And lastly, to you Mr. Malibu Prem, should you ever lower yourself enough to read this forum, WALK THE TALK! I would say walk YOUR talk, but that is mostly the drunk ramblings of an aging spoiled rich kid. You haven't had an original profound idea in decades - if ever! Can't your handlers at least help you with your speeches? They are terrible. All you talk about are cars, planes, watches and your kids. Then you lamely try to connect this with some amorphous incomprehensible talk about Peace that makes absolutely no sense! Look for a mere 100g a year or so, you could get a really good speechwriter to give you some good ideas. Maybe you would get a few new recruits! It would pay for itself. Until, that is, they find this forum. Oh well, Mr. Malibu Prem, what are you gonna do? Just throw another shrimp on your $10,000 gas grill and guzzle another jug of French bottled enlightenment, sit back and enjoy all your wealth. Remember, you can't take it with you. Karen P.S. Does anyone remember hearing Rawat actually talk about his experiences? He NEVER talks about seeing the Great Light, or seeing God face to face within - Slap my face, I forgot, he sees God every time he looks in the mirror. But does he ever really talk about what HE experiences "within inside?"
|
|
|
|
Yes, sometimes I see light with no technique and focusing on my breath can stop all thoughts at any time. As I read some books on the subject I realized M was packaging this for his own enrichment. John
|
|
|
|
I write computer code for a living. Sometimes I experience a "zone" where answers just appear without effort. I don't have to stop thinking. I just don't have to start. Also, people confuse necessary thought with the endless chatter that goes on in one's head and does nothing. If you saw a beautiful sunset, what thought could add to that?
|
|
|
|
Getting in the zone where the chatter, self-doubt etc isn't happening is pretty damned crucial, I also used to find that was the case when painting, especially when doing gestural calligraphic type painting. where a flow of the arm was crucial.
Funnily enough in a discussion about sports performance with someone the other week they mentioned the Inner Game of Tennis being great for them. They were never a premie, but found the book really useful for exactly this territory.
Re a sunset, not sure I agree, yeah for appreciating it on a purely aesthetic angle, maybe fine, but understanding how a sunset works say wouldn't reduce the pleasure, usually I find understanding the mechanics enhances the pleasure, and that could include trying to work just why that specific combination of coloiurs or structures triggers stronger feelings. If you're just talking about being focused, no disagreement with that
But thats understanding, which is vastly different from twitchy reflex thinking that inhibits performance.
|
|
|
|
That's amazing, that's just how it happens in me too. All my thoughts just appear without effort but apparently the thought that I should stop thinking thoughts just doesn't appear. I wonder if there is any way I could start thinking that I should stop thinking?
"Also, people confuse necessary thought with the endless chatter that goes on in one's head and does nothing." I rather enjoy my thoughts, I'd call them a charming and enjoyable monologue from a loving and trusted friend if I had to define them but then again it's not really me defining them it's my thoughts defining themselves, isn't it? And then who is this "I" that is somehow separate from them, we're all one.
What thought could I add to a beautiful sunset? Well, "What a beautiful sunset!" would be a good start ... but I'll wait until this evening and then I'll find out what appears.
|
|
|
|
Nervousness, shyness, pride, fear etc etc which hasn't affected your performance?
Have you never had your thought processes reduce a creative output?
If not you are an exceedingly rare human being.
|
|
|
|
Take a deep breath. Being cool is all about being relaxed and comfortable in any circumstance. Check the link.
Related link: http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Cool
|
|
|
|
And I suspect not dissimmilar from the way I tried to live for years, in fact I didn't look unlike that guy for years, but now I see it as riddled with weaknesses as an approach, but hey this probably isn't the forum for discussing this, and it's something I've thought a fair bit about.
I much prefer this generations definition of cool, which has some similarities to the def above, but I think is way classier.
Of course it's not a bad version of cool, hell it's the def of most youngsters in the new folk/weird folk/twisted folk set, most sporting beards too in an anti capitalist way, so quite fashionable too  , I've probably just been living in London for too long hanging around with new media designers and got a bit too surface shallow
Modified by hamzen at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 04:22:40
|
|
|
|
I much prefer this generations definition of cool, which has some similarities to the def above, but I think is way classier.
I'd love to hear your def. Mine comes down to:
1. Being independent - You decide what you want to do, you don't ask others what they think, you decide yourself. You aren't looking to others for attention and approval. You're doing your own thing and enjoying whatever happens.
2. Being indifferent - An indifferent person just goes about life and takes things as they come. He doesn’t give a shit. He is indifferent to the outcome of whatever situation he is in. He will be OK with whatever happens.
3. Being funny - If you're funny, it makes people FEEL GOOD inside. They laugh, and it triggers positive feelings. Most of the "coolest" guys I know are wickedly funny.
4. Being socially well adjusted – You know how to relate very well to other people and you make others feel comfortable around you.
5. And doing all this without Rawat!
Modified by Steve at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 09:22:29
|
|
|
|
although you might be including that in humour.
Nobody trusts anybody who can't take the piss out of themselves nowadays, and can't take being ribbed, almost savagely so at times by close mates, with a lot of love and affection too. Primary reason why Rawat will never be cool to this generation.
I can't remember a single time over all the years where he took the piss out of himself.
Being self critical is pretty key to that process too, and can't ever remember him doing that ever either.
So I think he will find very few vulnerable youngsters who don't have that stuff ingrained in them now, very few really naive and vulnerable kids about nowadays compared to our generation, assuming you're the same age, and they are soooo unlikely to trust someone who asks for so much trust who can't do that.
If he could he'd be really dangerous, except it would also undermine his whole raisdon d'etre.
Could go into more, time pressures today though.
And secondly, if not first I'd put a sense of style, and style in it's deepest meaning, not the shallow way I uswed to judge style.
And again he fails miserably on that one too.
And thats one of the reasons I think, that being cool is so crucial now, it sorts out the wheat from the chaff, and Rawat comes out as transparently chaff just on those two key points.
|
|
|
|
well I like to think I perform as well as I do on the day rather than call it underperforming  I can just about manage to think of those times when things are going swimmingly as something to look forward to as going to happen again and again with more certainty each time as I spend inordinate amounts of time paddling out through the surf of my uncertainties and learning my craft.
Wasn't it Nik who said life is a succession of failures with the odd success? - I remember finding that very reassuring at the time - a nice solid footing.
|
|
|
|
in general and one I can relate to, but I think over the years taking such an approach has meant me taking easy routes too often and missing opportunities because of that.
And in a sporting context, taking up baseball at 55 as I have, when you're doing your utmost to squeeze everything into it, and out of it, as you can, with an awareness that you don't have 20 years to perfect your craft, and you want to challenge age preconceptions amongst those you're playing with, only applicable in moments of addled neurosis Not an easy balance, since too much self pressure will also inhibit performance, but just staerting to find the balance after 5 months that seems right for me.
Another phrase comes to mind, about aiming for the stars you're more likely to reach the moon
|
|
|
|
I've just taken up golf which is like a litmus test for cool - air swings are distinctly not cool are they
Self pressure goodness what is that, never heard of it......ha ha. The story of my life is punctuated by moments when I look at the sky and fill my lungs as I realise I've just jumped in the deep end again and it's sink or learn how to swim...
Having taught hundreds of children to swim I know there's a bit of sinking involved - lift your head and your legs will sink is useful for standing up in shallow water or getting some air and your bearings in deep water but not good for forward progress.
A good teacher allows all that learning and experimentation to take place by acting as a bottom line safety net, they know you're looking out for them. And it's usually not too long before they're having fun.
Hence my current motto - when in doubt err on the side of fun....now is that cool or what!
|
|
|
|
Most of the time, although a bit difficult in the pressure cooker of baseball, team mates are quite demanding when we've got a championship and promotion at stake, although our main coach has done his best to take that pressure off, by lowering expectations, but that's mostly batting, where little is expected. Fielding is a different matter, and unlike cricket the fielding demands and standards are unbelievably high.
Re fun, in every other area of my life, couldn't agree more, too much so I think at times
Hey was it you that posted the stain glass window pic the other week,. do you have any more online?
If so, and you don't fancy posting it here, maybe ask John to pass my e-mail addy, since we can't send pm's here, hope he wouldn't mind.
|
|
|
|
The team aspect in baseball adds another dimension , fortunately my golfing companions are more interested in the sunset than how long it takes to get around the paddock.
Why I don't have a website even though I want one...
I'm a bit photographically challenged, and just when I'd got somewhere I installed an update that terminated the relationship between camera and computer - getting used to another camera now. Windows aren't easy to photograph, I was lucky with that pic - there was thick white cloud cover the morning I posted it.
And then you've got to remember to take the camera of course... 
So no more pics online but I do have some not particularly good scanned ones I could email, .....okay, tis but a geometric, but this is what the stairwell looks like this morning..
|
|
|
|
I've passed the message to John.
Re website, REALLY easy to sort out a simple one for you, and hosting with someone like supanames, REALLY cheap.
Heres to perfecting our swings, re golf and baseball
Modified by hamzen at Sun, Jun 10, 2007, 03:01:51
|
|
|
|
Thanks. Those windows are so beautiful!Â
I took up rollerblading a few years ago at the age of 50. It's great to tell my young piano students my stories of needing to practice...and what happens when I don't!
|
|
|
|
I still get a hit from all the colours splashing around
|
|
|
|
Nervousness, shyness, pride, fear etc are not thoughts or thought processes but are usually considered emotions. Mind you, I'm a great admirer off Antonio D'Amasio's ideas (or truths to me) so I see everything inextricably connected.
Many people consider my performance has maintained a nadir that has been going on for so long that nothing I do can any longer be considered underperformance. It's a constant low and so I don't think I've ever had a creative output but if I had I certainly aren't qualified to judge it as being creative.
|
|
|
|
Couldn't agree more, but I find the emotion comes first, very quickly followed by thoughts that reflect those emotions, and the thoughts are the surface ripples that cut through the concentration. Theres been some classic ones in my first baseball season this year, during a no hitter sunday for instance, "god I hope a ripping line drive doesn't come to me", this was after the pitcher had caught an absolutely cracking hit, and in that moment I have a thought like that I know my body prep, positional awareness, exactly what the plays are, is either gone, or I'm way unprepared.
Can also think back to my painting days when I did a lot of almost calligraphic type gestural zen paintings, where an absolute requirement is no conscious input or else it comes out mannered, predictable, dull, lacking fliow etc etc, exactly the kind of stuff that jdaines is talking about I think, whereas when in the zone it has flow, power, embodiespure physicality with "spirit" for want of a better word.
Re your last paragraph, ha ha, Ocker at his best, but too familiar as well in terms of other peoples judgements re my life, ce'st la vie 
Modified by hamzen at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 04:44:58
|
|
|
|
I used to be a musician. And people would talk to me while I was playing. Thinking about sunsets is like talking to musicians. Distracting from the main event and nowhere near as beautiful
|
|
|
|
While some thoughts can be enjoyable, think of driving your car while your kids are fighting. Your kids are your thoughts and your brain could do a better job of driving without the chatter
|
|
|
|
we could work back from there.
|
|
|
|
Death, taxes and noisy children are inevitable
|
|
|
|
'After reading the many posts re: Maharaji's life style and behavior, I can no longer contribute to his cause.'
And if 'Knowledge' works, why doesn't it work for the master of it himself?
|
|
|
|
Hi John, I hope you get the local contacts that you are looking for. As for 'Knowledge working' - rejecting Prem does not, and in my view should not, require an outright rejection of our own experiences. What rejecting Rawat may allow however is a reappraisal of the experiences that we may have had, and a consequent capacity to extend the breadth and scope of our own experience, be that meditational or any other. Good luck with where ever 'expremieism' takes you. Nik
|
|
|
|
Please be careful deconstructing what you call 'knowledge' !
Your feelings - that's one thing.
Your beliefs - that's another thing.
What used o make the trick for you (usually a mixture of various things you like).
The relationships you had in the group
etc etc
Try to sort things out: it's not that simple, and usually quite painful.
Welcome to the club, good luck, and best wishes !!
|
|
|
|
I just practice the techniques. It's been several years since I went to a meeting or an event. The techniques continue to work for me, but the experience seems to come without any aid from M. I haven't had any premie friends in 20 years. Too many people have commented on his depraved life style for me to continue to support his work. Ultimately, that will be his main problem; the continued financial income to pay for his lavish life style. I do believe he has some kind of talent. Too bad he didn't use it for the benefit of the human race.
|
|
|
|
... good to see your posts arriving here John by the way ...
I'm still thinking ...
He certainly, in my view, was not talented in his chosen role.
Modified by Lp at Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 16:58:08
|
|
|
|
He made a lot of money fooling people. That's a talent.
|
|
|
|
but wasn't it all handed to him on a plate?
Modified by Lp at Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 10:29:46
|
|
|
|
Yeah, but he was sure passing that plate around a lot 
|
|
|
|
Everytime he comes up with a new propagation drive, having known many of the old-time in-crowd, I can't help seeing the mental workings of the people around him stamped on it, rather than his. There is hardly anything to recognise as his way of thinking, though each scheme is only marketable back to premies as his brainchild. His insatiable material appetite and his need to be always the one and only top dog are ever present of course.
His way of clutching at straws is more recognisably his own.
A tendency to keep jumping from one failed idea to another, each one introduced with the divine assurance that this really is the one that is going to work, is recognisably one of his contributions.
It still appears to me that timing played the major part in his success. His family did the ground work. The 60's paved the way. The West did the rest.
He still does quite a scarey job of keeping some people thinking he is god, I must admit. Though he drops the plate sometimes.
Saph.
Modified by Lp at Thu, Jun 07, 2007, 09:03:39
|
|
|
|
He must drop the plate a lot if less than 10% of people that receive K are actually active pwks. Is it around 2%? Pretty piss poor job if you ask me.
|
|
|
|
>I can't help seeing the mental workings of the people around him stamped on it, rather than his.< That is still one of the, as yet, untold stories of Rawatism. And it is such a strange story - premies have accepted all sorts of garbage over the years on the grounds that Maharaji knows best, but so much of the nonsense that has been foisted upon them has come straight out of the machinations and ego tripping of the inner circle. It completely gives the lie to the excuses as to why there is no 'member' power or 'student representation'. The inner circle would have perfomed much better as advisers to the teacher if they had had to respond to the members, instead of being able to hide behind the mantra "its what Maharaji wants". Premies didn't just give themselves up to Rawat, they made themselves subservient to a cult machine. I'm sure that was never envisaged as a path to liberation, even by the most ardent bhaktiist. Nik
|
|
|
|
With the few long term adherents that I have known and revisited at times, I gained the impression that none was happy nor felt they could escape.
But in my own short, concentrated time I saw enough. Those faithful advisors who's brains are constantly picked for new ideas, will gain no reward for any idea that works. That would be the master's perfect plan unfolding.
But they would pay dearly in loss of confidence for every failure, as he would never stop reminding them nor attaching their name to the incident, to make it clear that it was not his idea. It is an exhausting and desolate situation, which they dare not change.
His personal lack of regard for others was always apparent even when young. It is astonishing that it was possible within the same day to overlook such slips and to continue with the job of trying to see god, not so much within, as in him.
A thankless job, though his core faithful, secretive, few, nowadays, are at least salaried for going through the motions.
Modified by Lp at Thu, Jun 07, 2007, 16:54:41
|
|
|
|
A tendency to keep jumping from one failed idea to another, each one introduced with the divine assurance that this really is the one that is going to work, is recognisably one of his contributions. At least Ralph lost his own money. With Rawat, it's part and parcel of extreme grandiosity, never learning from his mistakes, taking risks with other people's money all of his life, like putting up a big tent in the middle of a beautiful piece of land to hide the behavior of one's followers. What's he gonna do? Put energy-consuming air condioning in it? At whose cost? Is there anyone willing to stand up and tell him it's a bad (and dumb) idea?
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 08:47:53
|
|
|
|
is that the real reason he wants the tent is to keep the bugs out. And we'll know the end is nigh when the entry way is through a cattle dipping station.
|
|
|
|
But narrow escapes from marquees in India and some of the satsang stories that were told of old add a macabre twist to my big tent memories.
One of my most intents memories as a boy I heard once on the radio:
"Down in the jungle living in a tent
Better than a prefab: no rent."
I don't know who was responsible.
PS.
Ah but google does: BBC - Scotland on Film - Forum Charlie Chester's Stand Easy: 1946!
I was 2!
Strange coincidence:- mentioned in the 3rd post: Jack Train went to my school: Sutton High; I remember teachers often saying to me:
"This school has only produced one successful comedian: Jack Train; it's not very good odds as a career choice."
Modified by Lp at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 15:43:24
|
|
|
|
Even the teachers are comedic!
All those prefabs - the first school I went to was an old private house with a large ornamental pond and a collection of prefabs. In the morning we'd collect newts and pondweed during nature studies, eat fish fingers, frogs spawn and thames mud in the prefab at lunchtime, and then have a swimming lesson in the afternoon.
|
|
|
|
My then satsanged brain was aware that the four techniques, service and a regular diet of talks from Mr Rawat, after premie satsang was banned, were the means of total surrender to HIM (heavy, isolated and mean). I bailed out before experiencing total surrender so cannot report on the effectiveness of the techniques to enable this. I wonder if I had learned the techniques without the baggage I would have continued in regular practice. Has anyone made a survey of people offering some or all the techniques? My friends took me for a wonderful vegan meal at a place run by students of Mistress Ching Hai who imparts (some of ?) said techs. Not sure if she requires total surrender to herself or if she offers grace. Best, turey.
|
|
|
|
I have no contact with M. I use Mack's ear plugs from Walgreen's and listen to my breath to quiet my thoughts. In about 15 minutes, I feel like I'm floating and then I go into a very peaceful sleep. So that's two techniques, no charge. I found that I saw light when I was rubbing my eyes with sleep. Using both of my index fingers, I press "lightly" at the base of my nose and forehead on either side and see an incredible light. This is not at all like Maharaji's technique. I always thought this came from him, but apparently not. I don't do the thing with the tongue though. Too uncomfortable. Eckhardt Tolle "Power of Now" is a good book to explain how to focus on the now and quiet the thoughts. M's techniques are simply ancient Hindu yoga. They're not even his. JD
|
|
|
|
...he hasn't tried to patent the techniques. Now Mack's and Walgreen's. They have a sleeper there. Plug em in folks...relax and float downstream.
Modified by turey at Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 19:18:54
|
|
|
|
I use Mack's ear plugs from Walgreen's and listen to my breath to quiet my thoughts. Eckhardt Tolle "Power of Now" is a good book to explain how to focus on the now and quiet the thoughts. M's techniques are simply ancient Hindu yoga. They're not even his. Hi JD, if you get benefit from focussing on your breath you are not alone. Tolle is great isn't he. Check out the link for others.
Related link: http://www.soundstrue.com/pages/search.php?search=breath&format=all&page=1&image.x=9&image.y=10
Modified by Steve at Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 12:36:55
|
|
|
|
I think that you have hit upon a sort of paradox which many encounter in reappraising Maharaji: You lose faith in Maharaji/Prem, but the experience remains valid.
The first thing to consider IMO is that the techniques of Knowledge are based upon chakra meditation, which is an extremely old practice, going back ages.
Each technique is chakra based, but for most people I would hazard that the most effective is breath meditation, which can produce very effective results.
The other part of the Maharajist belief system is that Maharaji (Prem) is the only giver of the techniques, and that they only work because he is the ultra-special or unique invigorator of the same.
This IMO is unsustainable.
The school of practice which Maharaji/Prem comes from is Rhadasoami, which was founded in the mid 19th century quite deliberately as an antidote to the perceived encroachment into Indian Hindu life by Christianity at the time.
Consequently its founders based their new system upon stressing the need for some ultra Jesus type figure who revealed the techniques, the idea of satsang, which was the equivalent of the Christian congregation of believers, and devotion and service to the Teacher, which was paramount, and again, Christianity inspired.
Before that, I think (maybe charitably) that the meditation was probably taught by many teachers who taught simple chakra meditation and who were there to serve as a guide to people’s practice of the same.
As Rhadasoami progressed, however, I believe it probably gained a dynamism of its own, in which different schools declared themselves as having some personal ultra Perfect Master/Teacher, and that, by our time, the young Prem was being declared as the Ultra Master of all time.
Once one strips away the various hyperboles, it seems to me that the practice of this type of meditation can still be effective, and quite dynamic if one has a teacher who is perceived as a pure role model.
It’s still quite effective in its own right, it seems to me, even having now perceived the shortcomings of the teacher through which I came to it.
And this is why I still practice the various techniques - as I find them quite effective - and still value the good experiences I had with Maharaji/Prem (his shortcomings not being known at the time).
Although nowadays, I enjoy them for them for their own sake, as being age-old tools of good experience, with possibly a deeper experience of my own being, but without the requirement any longer of any teacher or Master.
|
|
|
|
Hi Anthony,
Spose I do think it is overly charitable to think that techniques to stop thinking weren't used by our ancestors for manipulative or coercive purposes as well as good ones.
Seems to me the art of persuasion is a body of folk knowledge that has been practised down the centuries. And it ranges from drop the snarl and I'll pull the thorn out of your paw to recant your heresy or you won't like what happens next. And imbetween there's all sorts of stuff we've tried on horses, ducks, mammoths, fish, bears, tigers, cabbages, fig trees, humans and with only limited success, goats. We've tried our luck with a heck of a lot of species when you think about it, but none with more dedication it seems to me than ourselves.
|
|
|
|
Spot on Lesley.
Unless of course, we were put on this earth by the universe-creator for the express purpose of realising we needed to stop thinking at some point in order to appreciate reality. Now that would be funny.
|
|
|
|
Hi, Lesley,
The field of meditation and suchlike practices has no doubt been inhabited by a whole range of teachers or facilitators or whichever term they use from the very sincere to the deluded to the downright charlatan since time immemorial, and still continues to be so today.
All I was really trying to say to the guy who started the thread is that the K techniques have been around for yonks, and if some people find them effective (especially the breath technique) in whatever way, it's not entirely surprising.
I'm not thinking of cosmic realizations, but just, for example, of the sense of calm, inner warmth and sometimes 'connectedness' to an inner tranquillity that I have experienced sometimes through the breath technique.
Nothing in the slightest especial to Maharaji and premiedom, I wouldn't imagine, but the premies are taught it is.
Since I left the ranks, I still find it beneficial, and it doesn't surprise me that some humans have felt the same over time, and that this form of technique may have been taught to them occasionally by benign persons who weren't looking for heaps of dosh, or trying to push them into attaining unattainable states, or seeking worship.
In any case, I still feel the same from this technique as I did when in the premie ranks, but now I have dissociated the experience from Prem, as I perceive that it has been felt by many of totally different backgrounds over time, whether through teachers or simply through various normal stimuli in life.
|
|
|
|
I don't want to denigrate all the efforts people have made in meditation but my mum taught me when I was a kid to take a few deep breaths when I wanted to feel calm.
I cannot help these days but feel suspicious of people who teach it as such a big deal. Who want you to make a big deal out of it.
And I don't want to denigrate the feelings that can come with breathing. Personally speaking though I don't want to pay any more attention to my breath than comes naturally.
|
|
|
|
Either the techniques actually accomplish what they're advertised to do or they don't. The only thing I've ever seen them advertised as is methods for transcending the temporal illusion of "this world". I don't think they accomplish that, do you? If they don't, then they don't work. Am I missing something?
|
|
|
|
This website is from another ex premie. I use ear plugs and listen to my breath. I find a very peaceful place inside. As for the world being an illusion, that is Hindu mysticism. I have found the world to be a very real place. My light meditation (with modified technique) sometimes answers questions I have when I'm writing software, but I think that has to do with pressure on the pineal gland. Many people have found peace in their breath. Check out this web site. As for transcendance, try LSD. My only problem is I can never remember the answer after the trip http://www.soundstrue.com/pages/search.php?search=breath&format=all&page=1&image.x=9&image.y=10
|
|
|
|
which is why I don't bother trying to find the answer with LSD especially when I recall the people I knew who ended up not being able to answer anything at all from going back too many times trying to remember the LSD answer. Plus I found a place outside, that's sometimes peaceful and sometimes exciting and it's great fun going with the flow of changes, it's called the world.
Anyway I prefer this site, it talks about meditation without trying to sell it to you: http://www.meditationiseasy.com/
|
|
|
|
This website is from another ex premie. I use ear plugs and listen to my breath. I find a very peaceful place inside. As for the world being an illusion, that is Hindu mysticism. I have found the world to be a very real place. My light meditation (with modified technique) sometimes answers questions I have when I'm writing software, but I think that has to do with pressure on the pineal gland. Many people have found peace in their breath. Check out this web site. As for transcendance, try LSD. My only problem is I can never remember the answer after the trip http://www.soundstrue.com/pages/search.php?search=breath&format=all&page=1&image.x=9&image.y=10
|
|
|
|
Is there any real evidence for this? I knew a lot of satsangis in the 70's (Charan Singh type RS) and while they were not allowed to reveal their secret techniques of meditation either I learnt enough to know they are very different to Rawatism's.
|
|
|
|
They may be a bit circumstantial but works by David Lane and Mark Jurgensmeyer on EPO are interesting: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lane.htm http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/rad.htm at least one of the Radhasaomi gurus was teaching kundulini yoga, so there may have been a degree of pick and mix going on. Geaves say that Lane confused two gurus with the same name which is why Lane believe Hans was from a Radhasaomi lineage. n
|
|
|
|
not true, Lane stated that Hans was initiated by Sawan Singh (another renegade) before Sarupananand. The Radhasoami lineage seems to be all about property and land - I call them the 'estate agent gurus'.
|
|
|
|
>not true, Lane stated that Hans was initiated by Sawan Singh (another renegade) before Sarupananand.< Perhaps more significantly Lane distiguishes between Radhasaomi (Sawan Singh) and Advait Mat (Sarupanand ?) - but as Hans didn't acknowlede Advait Mat as his definitive school it may still be the case that Hans borrowed heavily from Radhasaomi when it came creating his own school. Macgregor perhaps did not aid clarity when he quoted Lane http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/macgregor5.htm The world expert on the 'Rhadasoami Tradition' from which Maharaji's family claim to derive is California State University's Professor David Lane. Lane states that, after being overlooked for the succession by his own guru, Hans Ji defected, and set up on his own. Maharaji's 'lineage', he says, is a fabrication. Of India-based organisations like Maharaji's, Professor Lane says: 'Most of these groups which start illegitimately - in the sense that they don't really have the credentials from the previous guru, and in Hans Ji's case he didn't. What they do is they invent a kind of neo-mythology which enhances their case.' It would seem that in this case Lane was talking about the Advait Mat lineage/group rather than Lane's own definition of Rhadasoami which he explains at: http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lane.htm as On the distinction between Radhasoami and Advait Mat I realize the inadequacy of using such a broad term as the "Radhasoamis" to cover such a diversified clan of surat shabd yoga groups, but it serves a highly useful function in distinguishing Shiv Dayal Singh related paramparas from other similar nirguna bhakti panths (such as the Sri Paramhans Advait Mat group in Guna)
nik
|
|
|
|
Hans set himself up 6 years before Sarupanand died - a renegade master indeed!
|
|
|
|
Yes but Lane's source was somebody at a Radhsoami ashram and is nothing more than gossip and gossip obviously meant to denigrate Hans Rawat and his "spiritual credentials".
"Gyani Ji at Sawan Ashram in 1978 told me that Hansji
had been initiated by Sawan Singh in the 1920s, but later
left due to some personal problems (I think Gyanji said
something about sex, but such gossip is notorious in
India and not be relied upon unless there are many
sources). The Advait Mat group is indeed different than
Radhasoami, although my friend Aaron Talsky suggests that
the founder of Advait Mat may well have been initiated by
either Shiv Dayal Singh or one of his successors (Talsky
did some research on this issue while in India, but I
have not seen the verification so it remains
speculative).
Sarupanand is mentioned by DLM and there was indeed a
split off after his death and if I am not mistaken this
group also mentions Hansji."
|
|
|
|
I think the information on this site which is part of Lane's earlier and more positive writings about Radhasoami show that there is very little connection between Rawatism's "techniques" and Radhasoami's apart from them both being part of the Indian religious milieu and being influenced by Sikhism.
http://vclass.mtsac.edu:930/phil/journey.htm
|
|
|
|
>that there is very little connection between Rawatism's "techniques" and Radhasoami's < I'm sure that's right. The discussions, comments and articles that have dealt with the Rawat/Radhasoami/Sant Mat connections/similarities have not distinguished very precisely between practices, beliefs and structures. The key thing I guess was the fact it was possible to show that Rawatism wasn't unique. Nik
|
|
|
|
Thanks for your insight. Of all the posts, I think you have the most information on the practice of knowledge. I realized in 2006 that M had not been to Miami in several years. I always left the programs when people were "praising" him. I never felt very good about that part. I did like listening to him. But with the information I found on this forum, it is no longer possible for me to support his lifestyle and hypocrisy.
|
|
|
|
Hi John, Good for you that you've been able to get something out of the meditation and separate yourself from Rawat. After reading this thread, though, I wonder if it's wise to try to stop all thoughts. I suppose if one has racing thoughts, using the breath technique (holy name) can be beneficial, but I found that using all the techniques (and stopping my thoughts) only served to place me in a long-term state of denial and worse, a dissociative state. I found I really had to address the thoughts that were going on in my head, but that was my personal situation. There's nothing wrong with thinking, and one really bad aspect of Rawat's teachings/religion is that the mind (thinking) is a bad thing to be doing. I reject that outright. It was the use of that concept that got me hooked into the cult by learning my thoughts, ideas, etc., were not worth anything -- only Rawat's teachings/religion were worth anything. All the best, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 10:29:46
|
|
|
|
Actually, I'm a programmer. I found that I could ask myself a question, focus on my breath and thousands of lines of code would pour out of my subconsciousness mind. I thought it was a higher power at first, but then I realized that when my ego is quiet, the subconscious can be heard. I still feel that there might be a higher power, but only because I realize I don't know everything. Thinking is my profession and I'm good at it. Yes, one should think, but not all the time. It's amazing what you can do when you stop that chattering voice in your head. I recommend Eckhardt Tolle's "The Power of Now". I only focus my mind when I need to. The rest of the time, I'm wondering where the energy goes when it disappears into black holes
|
|
|
|
I only focus my mind when I need to. The rest of the time, I'm wondering where the energy goes when it disappears into black holes. That`s a very interesting subject for contemplation. Mila
|
|
|
|
A black hole is a concentration of matter so huge that the gravitational field prevents anything including light from leaving its vicinity. I took physics at Michigan State. Stephen Hawkings, a noted English physicist, is the authority on the subject. But I disagree with him, I think black holes are source of new universes. At the center of every galaxy exists a black hole, sucking in vast quantities of matter and light. If every black hole created a universe, which would start like a "big bang", then there are an infinite number of universes, all unique. There are some 4 dimensional math matrices that support my thinking. 4 dimensional math can also explain why Maharaji can so easily pick pockets.
|
|
|
|
blimey, that's interesting. Can you explain what the fourth dimension is? - height, width, depth and um time?
and what a math matrix does, or is that pushing it...
|
|
|
|
Imagine 4 conjunct lines. Each of them perpendicular and none of them co-linear. The fourth dimension would appear to disappear into the center of the conjunction. A conjunction of 3 lines is the corner of a table. Theoretically, a point in the 4 dim could be everywhere at the same time or everytime at the same where
|
|
|
|
Bit of an imagination bypass going on here. I spent a little while trying to get a fourth line in there, but could not see one without having 45o angles,... oh well, you did try!
|
|
|
|
Hi Cynthia, I find that when I am really gobsmaked by something really deep, I don't try to stop my thoughts. I am just swept up in the experience of it and my mind is focused on the here and now experience of it. My thoughts naturally slow and sometimes cease. To try to stop my thoughts will take me right out of the experience. All the best, Karen
|
|
|
|
Perhaps the word stop is incorrect. When I write computer code, sometimes I get in a "zone" where there is no thought and I just type code effortlessly. Some people call that a state of Zen. Answers appear as if out of nowhere. Now, when I think of my 28 year old quadraplegic daughter, whose life I mistakenly saved at birth (she was sufficating during a "premie" home birth and I called 911) I do try to stop those thoughts because they are painful and the breath does work.
|
|
|
|
The internal flow of thought can never be halted, as it is synonymous with being alive.
The cursor keeps moving and commenting at all times, including within deeply moving emotional or Zen moments.
It can't be halted, and is a function of living consciousness.
It's the mind chewing over experience, analysing, categorising, apprehending and commenting on perceptions ongoingly, naturally, and very often pleasantly.
You can't shut it off, and shouldn't try.
Religious statements about 'killing the Mind' and 'stopping thought' are poorly (and ignorantly) phrased expressions or misunderstandings of the basic proposition that the above-mentioned everyday human mental processing doesn't represent the whole of human consciousness and that a deeper, more intuitional aspect also exists.
This is where the 'zone' you mention comes in, which is accessed by focused mental concentration, or by focusing into the breath.
The result can be a wondrous sense of relief - that we have been lifted out of an intense ego-preoccupation which had been captivating us.
We may feel more in tune with everything around, as if there is a tingling interstitial harmony to everything.
There is also the sense of clearer truths surfacing to us as if from some deeper lying internal voice. If one is artistic, words come out formed into neat phrases, if one is a thinker, previously elusive realisations seem to emerge to consciousness fully formed or resolved.
One might have the feeling that the universe is talking to one. The universal laws or propositions are one step closer.
During this, of course, one's thoughts are still commenting to us, but with a newer and magical quality.
At that moment, we are talking directly to the subconscious mind, and we have an elementary feel of having been admitted through a door into an intimate universal domain.
One may feel warm beatific energy coursing through us too, from midriff level.
Our thoughts will be commenting on this too, and telling us how beautiful it is.
Later, we will maybe be asking if it was the subconscious mind or the spiritual self which we encountered, or whether they are indivisibly twinned, and that the soul is inseparable somehow from the subconscious mind.
But all the time, your mind will be twittering away, as it should.
|
|
|
|
Perhaps twittering would be better described as the flow of electrical impulses as the mechanism of the brain continues to function "normally", even though there is no "inner chatter". The use of the word thought was poorly chosen. Semantics can be very self defeating. If you define the activity of verbalizing internally as thinking then you have it. It's when this internal verbalization stops that one can experience Zen, or something beyond what we understand in our schools of physics. And it does solve mathematics quite well without any need for verbalization. In fact, a darn site better. I look at the equation, ask myself the question and wait "thoughtlessly" for the answer. Since the subconscious places its answer in memory we like to call it "remember the answer". I've typed thousands of lines of code without a single "thought", although I'm sure the neurons were firing away like mad. Sometimes I feel like it's not my work, since I didn't "think" of it. But I get paid for it non the less
|
|
|
|
I'm sorry to hear about your daughter and can see indeed that that must occasion some painful thoughts.
That little mistakenly word is quite a judgement - enormous bravery happening here I think! Good on you, sometimes it is only by saying it out loud you can get the chance to evaluate the accuracy of such a thought.
I do agree with Anthony - I don't even want to stop the flow of thoughts and feelings that I have. And I know what you both mean about the 'zone', I do a fair bit when modelling with clay and I call it 'letting my fingers do the walking'. It is very accurate.
One thing I know though, the ultimate success of the piece relies on a wider application of my thinking abilities.
And one thing I have understood about the past is that it happened. Sometimes to make the best of where one finds oneself today you do need to think about your past.
When something is painful to think about, it is only natural to wince away from it, even try to stop the thoughts happening at all. So you get an added 'pins and needles' effect from not thinking which eases quickly.
Sometimes I find I have to think a lot about something, yet I know I can trust that will only last as long as I need to and I will feel better for it.
For me the most profound and growingly wonderful change in dumping the living lord and all his bad advice is the change in how I feel about my mind. It's been a veritable peace bomb.
|
|
|
|
'One thing I know though, the ultimate success of the piece relies on a wider application of my thinking abilities.'
This is true of art. The conscious and subconscious need to work in tandem, twinned together.
But it really applies to a healthy mind generally, I would say.
The subconscious is a supplier of sensations and thoughts which can be very profound and moving, and produce deep reverberations and stimulations.
However, the conscious mind is the sorter and final arbiter of the same.
We need a good balance and interaction between both.
This is where the idea of 'stopping thought' is actually really kinky and potentially damagingly misguided.
Thought is very healthy and good.
The bad press it sometimes gets should really only apply to if we get absorbed into e.g. morbid maelstroms of negativity, or our mind 'works overtime' and so on.
There's a time just to tune down, and refresh into a more 'standby' role, and this is often when we get breaths of inspiration from within.
|
|
|
|
Yes interesting isn't it... I was reading your post going yes yes agree with everything and then damn no not quite...
'The conscious and subconscious need to work in tandem, twinned together.' Yes
'However, the conscious mind is the sorter and final arbiter of the same.' No
Please don't call me kinky though!
|
|
|
|
I'm so sorry to hear about what happened to your daughter. When I have unbearably painful feelings that I've had to face over and over again, I have found that deep breathing, whether or not using the K technique, does help to assuage the pain and grief that comes with the thoughts. Otherwise, the thoughts and feelings can be too overwhelming to go on living day to day, and it's just not necessary or possible to live in that place of grief all the time. One never gets completely over those kind of life-altering events, but you have to do your level best to avoid living in the kind of pain that thinking about them can bring. Otherwise, (for me anyway) I'd be paralyzed and unable to function. Now I understand what you meant by stopping thoughts. Thanks. I noticed your post where you talked about cleaning the B707. I wonder if we ever crossed paths at DECA. I was gone by the spring of 1980 and sent up to the Gainesville ashram. Why would anyone be cleaning the exterior of that plane while the jet engines were running? Seems awfully dangerous to me for a few reasons.
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 08:34:41
|
|
|
|
The airplane was in a building and about to be painted. The danger was in the solvent to remove the old paint. The solvent can cause brain damage. If you stopped thinking you'd be dead. the Medulla Oblongata sends pulses to your heart so your heart pumps. I mean the endless chatter that servers no purpose than to distract. I get inspirations in my work, which leads to my getting paid very well. And I assure you that no thinking on my part could ever accomplish such sophisticated and complicated work. I wonder where the inspirations come from and I hope they don't stop. Sometimes I see answers to my technical questions in the light. I believe that shutting off the mindless chatter of 5% of my brain has allowed the other 95% to be heard. That silent and unsung subconscious computer is 20 times smarter than we are. If you're constantly wishing for a new car, you'll never hear it. We say " remember the answer, because the subconscious communicates like a memory". All of sudden, you just remember the answer. It must be said that I have been compared to an Idiot Savant, however I prefer the term Mathematical Savant. JD
|
|
|
|
Ah, you were on the paint crew. We were there at the same time because I got sick and was removed after the jet was completed. Rawat picked out the red stripe color, based on the shade of red that was on my coffee mug in the design room. The designers took the mug and had the paint matched accordingly. lol. I'm glad you retained your brain cells despite the fumes. I know of some premies who became very ill for many years from exposure to the various toxic fumes that wafted throughout both the complex and the hangar.
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 15:46:46
|
|
|
|
Hi JD. I agree. According to Bandler and Grinder, of NLP fame, your conscious mind can only handle a tiny proportion of the vast amount of information that your senses pick up. The information from your sense organs (eyes, ears, etc.) is very heavily processed in order to prevent overloading your conscious mind. The human mind can be thought of as having two parts: the conscious and the subconscious. If you think of the conscious mind as where you work out what you are going to do and how you are going to do it, the subconscious is where you get things done. When you drive a car, you use your conscious mind to decide where you are going to, how you are going to get there and when you will leave. You use your subconscious mind to manipulate the controls of the car, assess the dangers and select an appropriate speed. The conscious mind directs the car and the subconscious controls the car. The subconscious mind (the other 95%) is where your skills, habits, beliefs, values, memories and emotions are stored and processed.
Modified by Steve at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 21:09:36
|
|
|
|
'If you stopped thinking you'd be dead.'
Correct - thinking is synonymous with being conscious. We think because we are alive.
This isn't a contradiction.
However:
'And I assure you that no thinking on my part could ever accomplish such sophisticated and complicated work.'
I think you're falling into a semantic trap here.
You *are* thinking about your work.
But instead of endlessly exploring mental series of theoretical argumentations, in the usual conscious fashion, you are quietening and focusing your thoughts through breath concentration.
Once a certain threshold of quiet is reached, the subconscious contribution then comes through.
Of course - the subconscious contribution itself is the product of deep behind the scenes thought on the problem in any case, the army behind the wings which you don't normally see.
And as you are programming, your rational conscious mind will be checking the data flow you are receiving. It isn't blanked out, it's following the inspired stream and commenting to you also how wondrous it all is, and performing endless checks on the product, ironing out inconsistencies, and so on.
'That silent and unsung subconscious computer is 20 times smarter than we are.'
Badoom!!
Now that, my friend, is a super-duper contradiction.
You are making a split in your consciousness, and saying that the subconscious is not 'you'.
But of course it *is* you, isn't it? Just as the conscious, rational mind is you. Only, we generally associate entirely with the ego, everyday personality, which is intimately associated with the rational conscious mind.
And this is the human situation, isn't it? We have forgotten the other part of our consciousness which links to the rational mind, and, when we encounter it, we suddenly have the sense of being back with our *real* self, more vitally alive, and flowing with sensations and insights which seem to surface from the core of the universal living system.
Both sides of consciousness are ourself, and need to be integrated, so that the products of the deeper part emerge more readily to the rational side and clarify, enrich, and also tone the 'speediness' of conscious thought.
When connected to the subconscious, there is also a feeling of beatitude, as though being coupled to an inner geyser of warm consolation, which I am trying to avoid calling love, so as not to seem corny, but which I guess I should really just refer to as love.
'I mean the endless chatter that serves no purpose than to distract.'
This is also dubious.
The nature of conscious thought is to be free ranging, exploratory. It shouldn't be dammed.
Your division of your consciousness into good part subconscious and bad part conscious is part of kinky eastern religion - or rather, probably the poor understanding or interpretation of that original realisation that savants somewhere in the past had, still do sometimes, that the conscious rational mind is not all of our being, and that our twin is behind it, and needs to link to it, and speak its truths through, in a modulated way, such that conscious and subconscious, ego and self are in harmonious and pleasing cooperation and balance.
Modified by anthony at Sat, Jun 09, 2007, 05:42:37
|
|
|
|
The subconscious can be just as dark as it can be light.
|
|
|
|
Good post Anthony. My favourite line being 'The nature of conscious thought is to be free ranging, exploratory. It shouldn't be dammed'.
But when you talk about a subconscious 'contribution' I start going hmmm - wouldn't you consider the 5% to be contributing to the 95% rather than the other way round if we're going to move away from the twinning imagery?
"Isn't there a 'natural law' that says that
movements end up achieving the reverse of what they claimed to be about
at their outset ?"
asks Nik in a post up above.
Could this be, I ask because we tend to believe we should be able to make a determination with the five percent and the ninetyfive percent fall in with it?
I mean it's almost like if you don't take that attitude you could be considered to be dangerous or unhinged. But if you do then you are offering a reassurance that you are master of your own domain.
Of course, instinctively we realise masters of their own domains really can be dangerous so look for the reassuring signs of disorder.
|
|
|
|
Hi, Lesley,
It's quite easy to get into superlatives when talking about subconscious or self, as that domain can be replete with extraordinary experience.
However, we live very much in the conscious domain, in the immediacy of life, and that's how it should be.
This is kind of what I meant earlier in saying that the conscious was final arbiter of stuff.
I think at end of day that it's nice to approach all of this stuff in a very measured and moderate way.
I like to start the day with some quiet meditation, to get into a nice relaxed state if poss, which helps the day flow nicely.
There's no way I would dream of attempting to remember each breath, but occasionally I will pause and do this for a short while.
It's just nice to calm the mind periodically to feel attuned to our inner whatever, through whichever way feels good.
This may be somehow in accord with what you are saying.
To live most of the time in the conscious, and tap into the other periodically, rather than seek the other way around, which inevitably causes imbalance.
In other words, live in the present.
Which is why I am off for breakfast, then into the country for some harmony before the grind tomorrow once more.
|
|
|
|
My rational is mind is very quiet, I assure you, and plays no part in the problem solving. It's the rational mind, with it's inherent limitations that prevent the sub consciousness mind from communicating its answers. Some of the software I "write", I can barely understand with my rational mind. People who have not experienced this have no basis for reference as in blind people trying to grasp the meaning of color.
|
|
|
|
Hello jdalnes, Sometimes I carelessly click on a post on this forum only to be left stunned and with tears in the eyes.Then I don't know what to do.What can I possibly reply ? Should I just pretend I didn't read it ? Well I can't ignore what you shared with us and I send you many warm thoughts from here on the South Coast of England. I feel sure you have always done your best as regards your daughter.I too have a disabled son......though nowhere near the level of disability of your daughter...possibly also due to a traumatic birth ( at a famous clinic in Paris where Frederic LeBoyer once practised...so I think difficulties during childbirth can happen anywhere) so I have some understanding of the heartbreak and sacrifice that you have experienced. Warmest wishes to you ,your daughter and all your family. Alexandra.
Modified by lexy at Sat, Jun 09, 2007, 10:15:31
|
|
|
|
Hello. I'm sorry; I've missed your name in all of these posts. I'm glad you saved your daughter. Saving a life can never be considered "mistakenly" done. (My children were born at home, though certainly not "premie" home births! Was that a premie thing? What a lot of nonsense premies were put through.)
I have worked with many, many children and people who one might consider to have been better "not saved". One is an autistic child, a piano student of mine, who would be diagnosed "low functioning". Another is an adult who was in a coma for months; his mother was being pushed to "harvest his organs". He is also my student. Both are doing amazing work.....and playing the piano! I have no words of comfort or wisdom for you. I am not suggesting your daughter has a future in piano. I have learned so much from these students. I am only suggesting that everyone has a purpose.  Please give my love to your daughter, as I extend it also to you. Thank you. Â
|
|
|
|
The most beautiful voice I have ever heard was in a rehab place. And it came from one of the most unusual people I have ever seen - his body was as if someone had taken a human form and turned it into the shape of a centaur.
Man o man that did not look easy, but my sense of things was that when he came into the room we all were quietening down and centering, waiting for the sound of his voice.
With a little help, he shuffled into a room, ate dinner and settled in to watch the footy, and in the process somehow inspired a lot of warmth and respect. It was like a secret vulnerability, unspoken, unacknowledged, yet I had the
feeling that should any threat to him arise, he would have been
defended.
Modified by lesley at Sun, Jun 10, 2007, 16:11:02
|
|
|
