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Boy, is this venture an abject failure or what? Read the NZ site. The whole thing has basically been reduced to "someone said something nice about the DVD".
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They gave out nearly 170 DVDs over the two days and I emailed the Feastcal organiser who replied they had just over 1,000 people through the doors so it certainly seems that propagation hasn't been a failure because of lack of premie effort.
If the site remains up I'll contact them next year and ask how many DVDs the'yve given away, how many aspirants and newpwks they've got. Should be dull but informative.
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It's funny EV so dependent on DVD's and the web - Mr Rawat has always been so disparaging about seeking any wisdom in books. Books bad ( except 'Peace is Possible' of course ) - multimedia, fine! If only books could have had moving images, maybe Rawat would have approved of them in the first place.
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..DVDs send you to sleep while you're awake;much better for mind-bending messages. BD
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Books stop going in if you drift off. DVD's keep running and the words are still being implanted in the subconscious.
In my opinion, one very real method with which "He" gets his message and style infused into a person without having to get it past the censor of the rational mind.
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...that in us, sleep and awake are both present at the same time. It sort of explains the power of waffle like Prem's to blurr reality for us at will (his will); reality is not clear cut one or the other. You can see awake-in-sleep in dreams, and asleep in awake in body/will acts (the fact that you put your hand where you want it, but are only aware of its arrival there, not of the "how" of the act.) Of course the idea is to be awake in awake. Workin on it. Love Bryn
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I was just thinking about this in the bath, (a popular thinking place).
I know this is an over simplification.
It occurred to me that with the same endless repetitive satsang he achieves (at least) 3 results.
1.His words are applied to the waking mind, with marginal persuasive effect.
2. Their boring repetitive pointlessness lulls the mind into a shallow sleep, where a part of the mind can still hear.
3. His words then go deeper into the subconscious, where they are accepted readily.
lp
Modified by Lp at Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 08:24:48
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LP,
The first time I heard this suggestion from you, I was very doubtful. Surely we aren't so easily persuaded as in we just soak up those words half asleep...
But I have heard you suggest this, on the forum and in person several times now, and I must say, I am finding it more and more convincing. I reckon if I hear it just once more...
Tongue only partially in cheek here.
It was odd, sometimes I went to such effort and expense getting to a program, only to sleep right through it. I thought it was my failing, then I thought it might be the repetitiveness and slowness of his speech. Maybe you are right - the hypnotic effect is an important part of it all.
BTW I stayed wide awake through Spiderman 111, no problem at all.
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Why does it not happen so dramatically in say a boring college lecture? It might. I have heard of people pulling relevant information from their memories which they did not know they had absorbed, for an exam, now let me think ...
One does not spend one's waking time implanting identical ideas in others (and hence oneself) and trying to establish a bond of love and total life trust with one's boring professor -
Nor establish a physical expression of commitment, through finance or vows, which discourages self doubt. Well, past the fee, that is.
It is a known fact that one takes one's feelings with one into sleep also, though there is some softening and respite in deep sleep. Add to this that Mataji seemed overwhelmingly encouraging of having naps in satsang, when I apologized for falling asleep on my knee right in front of her. The sense I got, was that satsang was a unique thing that can be "listened to in sleep as if one were awake. The message is so pure that the soul hears it and responds. It is beyond the level of the mind and heard on a higher level...etc ...etc.... sleep on brave devotee, you're tired, you've come a long way... etc...etc..". 
Otherwise I can't see how all these intelligent people got hooked, speaking of which:- Not fishing then? Apologies.
Best wishes
Lp
Modified by Lp at Fri, Jun 01, 2007, 09:51:56
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I spent three years listening to lectures. Some were boring, a few, very boring. I am pretty sure I never fell asleep in any of them. That is something.
Not fishing, no - too tired!
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Hi Lp and 13. Of course if the theory is true that dream is awakening sleep and motor/will is sleeping awakeness, then just sitting stock still in meditation could unleash who knows what at you out of the cognitive darkness of your own muscle reservoir. As we know. There are top down theories that the brain is a crucial resistor in a see of wildly active consciousness. Also the mind freezing function of the Holy Name, and the dee-bine colours begining to rain. It wouldn't take much to imagine you were seeing god. I tended to "wake up" and return after such samhadi like fugues, feeling very proud of myself but with not the faintest clue as to what had removed me or what had actually happened to me.. Self was never really touched in meditation for me, merely swept away. I think that given the workaday assumption of self/world dualism that I ((we en masse?) tend to default to, the dilution of self inevitably shakes perceptions of world with it. World slides toward meaninglesness. Imo that is most definitely the wrong direction to take!: especially as the very thing that is inspiring this drift is rooted in an experience of the physical, yes PHYSICAL body itself. What a trick. Pitting self against world and paralyzing an innocent bystander. Bad advice from Mr Rawat here. Meditation positively demands heroics from its practicers/victims. It places them alone and unattended in their now capricious shakey paradise.It overpowers self but never enhances insight into self, leaving it reeling in a process of mystical dissolution. As I say, you just never knew what was actually going on in you, so you had to to just "carry on" and charge bravely foreward-the charge of the Divine Light brigade, smiling! And all Rawat offered in return for this Gift of the loss of situatedness was....get this...himself! His presence in the world: mere presence-the consolations of guru darshan! Ta Prem, but a bit of useful insight and perhaps an explanation here and there might have been a bit more affirming. Come to think of it tho, affirmation of me/mine was never the Master's intention. I should have noticed, It was affirmation of him he was inculcating. Count me among the dud matches. If there are any "students of Maharaji" reading out there, I sincerely recommend you start a new era in your life: this time without the help of the manipulative, demanding and irrelavent GuruRawat. Love Bryn
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Apologies for late response.
I've come back and read this page several times now and each time have read more into it. It is most enjoyable and once more you have put the nebulous into words for our benefit.
It is an area difficult to perceive because the warping occurred there, in the core of perception itself. And covered, as it has grown, with misconceptions, disappointment and the pains of isolation and betrayal, it is a view that is obscured often by anger and the loss of self trust.
His blindness to any beneficial concerns for his followers is clearer now. We see how it all served his purpose alone. His perfect devotee is complete once he has stripped them of all confidence, all self will and personal motivation: once he has made them strangers to themselves.
best wishes
Saph.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 06:36:25
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I went to a piano recital in Birmingham a while ago; a worldclass pianist playing some of my favourite Chopin pieces, & I fell asleep in the middle of it.
I 1st heard them back in the dreamtime, on the radio probably, then yrs later bought a record or 2, then later a tape, then some more radio, & it took an age after I'd realised that they were all subtly different depending on the player, before I tried to analyse which ones I preferred & why.
So I went in there hyper-concentrated, determined to listen to every note & phrase in order to catch the unique interpretation, & conked out under the strain.
I'm sure the same mechanism was at work in the days when 'listening to the word of the master' was the major thing. Then I sat, concentrated on the movement of my breath, & tried to get to the meaning beyond the words, & often struggled to keep awake.
That phenomenon was something that at the time I understood as being 'Mind' on the rampage, but now I see it as an inbuilt safety mechanism to close down, & so protect, the consciousness of those who want to see more than what is actually there.
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Hi Pat,
I have often noticed that music is enhanced to the listening mind when on the border line between sleeping and waking.
I remember, as an example of this, mornings in Prem Nagar when the 1st Jumbo jet went.
There were some musicians, (some, sadly, departed) who used to play over the P.A. early in the morning to awaken us for meditation. An accordion was one instrument, with perhaps a guitar or flute.
I have a vivid recollection of hearing them start up in my sleep. Not knowing what it was, even that it was music, the mind seemed to enter into it with all perceptual options. Seeing, feeling, actually seeming to rise and fall with the music or be enveloped in energy. And it sounded much more (for want of a better word) cosmic.
There was no awareness of what instrument could make such sounds but the full colour and texture of the notes themselves seemed to move within me like waves.
I would resist waking, trying to preserve this strange formless state of awareness, but all too soon the waking world returned and sounds, though played well, were less all embracing experiences, but more simply, identifiable for what they were, finite instrumental events, and thus more ordinary.
Though they were good musicians, I don't think it had any thing to do with their devotion or anything. I've noticed the same phenomena listening to any music. In fact drifting on the edge of sleep while listening to music is still an enjoyable experience, though some genres are more appropriate than others, for this.
Lp
Modified by Lp at Sun, Jun 03, 2007, 08:05:15
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I have often noticed that music is enhanced to the listening mind when on the border line between sleeping and waking.
Yes, that's quite true, but not really what I was getting at, which was more the nature of the type of concentration we were encouraged to go in for, & the reasons why it should tend to make one fall asleep.
Other types of concentration don't cause that. Being alert is another thing.
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I get what you mean, I think. I remember at times, hanging on his every word, breathing deeply with name practice, trying to get a flash of sudden realization from his words. Trying at other times to interpret what was in fact a total waffle, and gain enlightening revelation. Staring at his form on stage thinking some spiritual benefit might flow back to me.
No wonder, ten minutes later, I was mentally exhausted and nodding: (disguisable in the early stages as affirmative head gestures).
Modified by Lp at Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 15:40:54
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Nothing to be sorry for Lp, these kinds of speculations are best approached over an 18 hr conversation well lubricated with the best the maya can provide, rather than the more limited venue we have here.
In any case the psychology of perception tends to be in the domain of the Men in Black, so maybe it's just as well we don't get too into it here, for fear of the 4 o'clock knock.
(Just Joking)
Modified by PatD at Mon, Jun 04, 2007, 16:43:23
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"I get what you mean, I think. I remember at times, hanging on his every word,
breathing deeply with name practice, trying to get a flash of sudden
realization from his words." I'm not sure about the breathing deeply but certainly completely concentrating on "Holy Name" and his total waffle and sometimes being so transported by it that there were moments when the feel of total understanding was there, timeless and incredibly cosmically meaningful and fullfilling.
But it wasn't easy and most of the time he was so stupid, repetitive and boring that it could be painful and certainly he could put everyone to sleep and did, often.
There were quite a few premies, even in the backward backwoods of Australia, who could really get into the groove and start to flash verbal pyrotechnics, playing off the audience response and both parties getting higher and higher and there were others who could go "deeper and deeper" until the vibe in the room was so thick it could be seen shimmering and glowing and coming into the satsang hall late was like walking into a thick warm pool of love-filled air that would transport you instantly into bliss.
Of course that was a lot easier when young Ratty was only an ideal across the ocean and not a real presence boring you shitless, droning on and on with occasional shrill, loud shouts.
Maybe ex-premies should just join Toastmasters and
still get our bliss in front of an audience, though I imagine the topic was some part of the effect.
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The NZ site will also send you a copy of "Peace is Possible" for $39.50. Today you can get it at Amazon for $10.70.
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NZ used to have a significant community ......... gone down the drain, like most places.
I keep wondering how the remaining PWKs manage to rationalize this !!
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It's pretty sad. They don't even have a paid in full photocopier. They ought to ask Maharaji for some money to help with propagation.
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Duplicator.
For
those that don't know - the duplicator is here and installed in our
office. It has already produced over 500 DVDs which are out there doing
service.
So
far the national community has raised $5,838.54 towards paying for it.
This leaves a shortfall of $2720.64 to cover all costs to date. The
duplicator has been bought on a private loan which needs to be repaid
so that New Zealand Premies can own this machine.
Material
distribution is an issue which is being worked on at the moment. We
have so far supplied centres and individuals with bulk orders of
limited titles (mostly Something Wonderful). This facility is available
to anybody as of now. We hope to be able to move towards being able to
distribute packs of current DVDs to individual Premies / Aspirants. As
Margie is a local Keys distributor, we have sent introductory DVDs to
the Aspirants we are supplying, with the idea that they can use them to
introduce their friends. It doesn't take too much imagination to see
how cheap media could be used in so many great ways. The bulk price of
introductory DVDs has been set at $1.10 (non-bulk $1.50) which is
enough to cover unit and running costs (without printed inserts
supplied in a clear plastic sleeve).
If anybody would like to contribute towards the final push towards paying for the machine, here are the details:
Payment to: N.Z Propagation Initiatives.
Branch: Nelson
Account No. 03 0703 0652056 00.
Payment can be made online or into any Westpac, or send a cheque to c/o M. Keylock, Ploversbank, 109 Lud Valley Rd., Hira, RD1, Nelson.
On
behalf of the community I would like to offer my appreciation to those
that have generously contributed so far. We are working on thank-you
DVD packs right now.
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That's what happens when I skim instead of read. It's still pathetic.
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