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Sucking on Rawat's icy toes for decades has given them all brain freeze.
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Well it's quite possible that some of them are, not that I've met many and although I've probably known more pwks than un-pwks over the last 30 years I've met more extraordinary un-pwks than pwks.
Pwks though, are not an identical bunch of people, their only necessary common point is a belief in Prem Rawat. Only a small percentage of them are dedicated enough to do much "service" and from my observations the "church lady" types who are the backbone of the orgs spend nearly as much time trying to raise and/or maintain the current pwks' enthusiasm and interest as they have for "propagation" and about the same for fund raising though rallying the troops and fund-raising are often the same activity. I don't know if other cults/NRMs advertise "tours" by fund-raisers (Yoram and Raja) as having some spiritual power to enthuse and raise consciousness.
As a person who lived with premies and was married to one for about 25 years after ex-ing the thing I found most surprising about the results of the meditation was that there aren't any or at least there don't appear to be any. I do not have enough experience to judge people who practise other forms of meditation with the same level of expertise so I haven't made any judgements about meditation per se.
Discussing the uselessness of "practising Prem Rawat's techniques of meditation" with a devoted pwk is emotionally charged but if there is enough honesty the response is that yes there have been no real changes towards an idealistic "liberation" or "realisation" but that they have a beautiful feeling which on further explication is their devotion to Prem Rawat. They refuse to believe that this is no big deal and that premies do not even manifest any particularly intense manifestations of devotion and belief. Of course, they don't have beliefs they have an "experience".
And there is a minority of pwks, though a fair sized minority, who are the opposite of extraordinary, those with significant life problems. Rawatist meditation hasn't appeared to have ameliorated their problems either.
What exactly does "bring me into the present" mean? I'll presume it means it stops you thinking about the past or the possible future for a little while as we're always "in the present" even when we're thinking about the past.
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The last time I hung out with premies in any extensive way was when I moved to Asheville in 1984. There was a culture of spouse swapping and pot that was a real turn off to me. A lot of people got hurt including and especially the children. Are premies special? In my contact recently with some I have found them to be childish (not childlike) and unable to connect emotionally. I find them overall unattractive, unremarkable, and living in unreality. So maybe they are special, but it is not a special I want anything to do with.
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If we still have "Best of's" any more. Do we? Mike, John, J-M? You're on a roll these days. Thanks!
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Use the 'find' tool from the forum toolbar
and search for 'best of forum' string
or
Best of Forum on EPO
http://ex-premie.org/pages/best.htm
Related link: EPO's Best of Forum excerpts
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When I wrote that there are no results of Rawat's meditation when practised over even decades I didn't think I needed to explicitly state what I thought "results" might or should be as even in our lowest common denominator popular culture these days there is some understanding of "meditation".
No doubt, depending upon the pwk's body and personality there are minor changes in consciousness during meditation periods and practising regular meditation while believing it is part of an ongoing, transformative process that you should do, especially in obedience to a "higher power", provides a minor, positive, emotional experience throughout the rest of your life and reinforces those very beliefs.
The question after all alluded to pwks being "extraordinary".
It's not something I've thought of much because I always find myself helpless when the thought "How can premies go on believing this bullshit after 30 years?" stymies my thinking but it does seem that once you believed Rawat was the Superior Power in person and accepted the concept of Lila, even though you might completely remove all the "Eastern" connotations from those ideas then that is a consistent, closed circle of explanation into which you can fit any actual events.
Having understood that before I became involved I held on to the idea/ concept/ feeling that the meditation practices had to "work" ie transform the people who "practised Knowledge" positively - make them extraordinary in whatever way - over a period of time and in my case cognitive dissonance became overwhelming in less than a decade. But if you had no prior guidelines then it seems that you can follow Rawat forever.
If there was such a transformation in his followers then Rawat would not remain the God who cannot be called God (or as he said greater than God). After all, he doesn't manifest any properties of "enlightenment" or "liberation" or "bodhisattvahood" or anything particularly positive to the unconvinced eye. If followers who practised the Knowledge did manifest just such qualities, especially if they included discrimination, then Rawat would be in the unusual circumstance of being belittled and disowned (though in a very loving and caring manner) by his enlightened followers.
They might then be able to convince him to practise the "techniques" himself and then after decades of practice he could then become the enlightened teacher he so obviously failed to become through inheritance of his father's position. That is, if he lived long enough but only a miracle or major expenditure on modern medical procedures is going to overcome decades of abuse of his body.
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No. not in my experience. A few people I know and have met I consider extraordinary. A couple of inspiring managers/leaders, an artist, a poet, my father, a couple of friends that are particularly perceptive or witty, an Olympic athlete, some brilliant scientists, some folk full of humility and kindness ...some others extraordinarly capable of hard-work and with great practical skills. As it happens none are premies. .... but I am sure that there are people who are extraordinary amongst the remaining premies. But a bit 'buried' somehow. Perhaps, as a group (and I count myself amongst them), premies did become increasingly 'colourless' as they sat alone and passive year on year in those quiet halls silently hanging on each word of video upon video of Rawat's overweening personality. But when the sleepers awake I am sure that extraordinary people will re-emerge best Tim
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They know that the world of the everyday is not the real deal and so the cleverer ones allow themselves bigger risks in it. They act super-normal with above average efficiency. The less ambitious console themselves with a voluptuous love for their gnomic master and nebulous insights into what they are convinced is truly real, an interior extraordinaryness given form in the sensations of secret meditation experiences. Even the most externally disfunctional feel hyper-individualised through this inner-worldly regime. Their exceptional certainty that they have a private grip on "the real", a gift inaccessible to others, and their loyalty to the secrecy of their private access to it, all raise their self regard well above the average. Premies are self-enhancing through active pursuit of insulation from doubt.(Satsang, as was) It is this habituation to the impossibility of any destabilizing self-measure that makes theirs the behaviour of freaks and supermen. (ie extraordinary). Plainly they think that all the above is impossible to perceive and of course untrue! Ho ho ho. Move on you prems. It was only ever a hobby! love Bryn (feeling a bit wordy)
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Oh just a BIT BD!! Rawatites retreat into the bliss and protection of the subjective... where no-one may challenge them.. and even if Prem Rawat or Valerio confront them in a training or a what-have-you service oppurtoonity, the sudden and extreme lack of bliss is only negated by the peer pressure of the social pyramid. All those years of gratitude paying off. Do you remember Maharji's analogy (probably not original) of a clay pot. 'Take a clay pot and place it under the water. Not above the water, below the water.... and when it is filled, completely filled with beautiful, clean, clear water. .. when it is filled, break it. Break it! And make a new one, even bigger... and let life fill that one too.' (I paraphrase) but imagine it spoken in a soft voice, with squeaky shrill bits, knowing, pregnant pauses, and half a seconds echo from the vast, silent auditorium...... well its good advice. BUT why dont people take it? Having 'loved' Maharaji and knowledge, the BEST thing you can do is break the pot. Just break it.... and make a new one. Bryn said the most wonderful thing once, (Just the once ? Ed. ) Which encapsulate the way i feel about the process of out-growing maharaji. 'In the end, the Guru makes an excellent football' Its a necessary and joyous process. Take the good stuff and run like fuck! Game on! Pass the ball! Let us play. Love Loaf
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Modified by Lp at Sun, May 20, 2007, 04:54:37
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Sorry everyone, and a genuine grovel for my waffle. I wanted to hit-out with the big word stick at the nasty premie memories. In mitigation; I am currently spending many hours/days with a two year old in loco parentis, somithing I didnt ask for, and is like having a huge brake put on. Also:- I have just finished preparing a presentation on the progression in phenomenological thinking from Brentano through Husserl, to Heidegger and Steiner. I guess when I sat in front of the keboard,free at last from both of the above, something just went TWANG. I am still not properly cured of the Spiritual Megalomania. I shall confine myself to text messages in future. I am currently texting the works of Thomas Aquinas to a friend iat the Holy See (Joke) Love Bryn
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Sorry everyone, and a genuine grovel for my waffle. I wanted to hit-out with the big word stick at the nasty premie memories. In mitigation; I am currently spending many hours/days with a two year old in loco parentis, somithing I didnt ask for, and is like having a huge brake put on. Also:- I have just finished preparing a presentation on the progression in phenomenological thinking from Brentano through Husserl, to Heidegger and Steiner. I guess when I sat in front of the keboard,free at last from both of the above, something just went TWANG. I am still not properly cured of the Spiritual Megalomania. I shall confine myself to text messages in future. I am currently texting the works of Thomas Aquinas to a friend iat the Holy See (Joke) Love Bryn
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Make your mind up! Which smiley is it to be?
You keep on with the big words - it is what you do best. I'll take up the slack by using all the little ones.
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The relaxation I felt from practicing about 30 yrs became more of a conditioned response to stress, which I rather like because instead of panic I feel calm first. This seems to be the case with feeling fear or shock, but not with pain, as I learned when I was in labor with child... I'm not sure where you want to go with your question; I will be happy to respond honestly and based on my own experience and studies in psychology. The mind set and premie speak create a goal of practicing meditation and quieting the mind, so when I did actions that promoted knowledge to others, or listened to the verbage or the beautiful music and the awesome words in the songs, as well as rushing to see maha several times a year, it was reinforcing the goal and making me feel better, temporarily. To center oneself through awareness of breath slows us down, calms us - that's what you're calling being here now. If I was nervous or excited about knowledge, the mechanism propelled me into (stress) my awareness of the breath. I've had fun "doing service" when I had the feeling that my mind was very still and there was "no time". I locked eyes with maha once and I imagined that to be the highlight of my experience, like a benchmark. And I suppose that was all self-fulfilling and very much about cognitive dysentary, I mean cognitive dissonance, to protect our integrity - we fail to see the sad reality, the real deal. I am still a new enough "ex" to be going through my reconstruction, because as painful as it became when I chose to see, I languished in the insulation of believing I was in the grace of God and connected to a divine master, as did so many of us. 30 years of practice developed in me a softness that I miss and a vulnerability that predisposes me to depression and anger. Despite following a fraud, I was very practical and sincere. Yet I often found premies at events to be rude and selfish, the ones doing certain services ridiculous. As recently as last September I was volunteering to help at the Knowledge Ctr in amaroo and I had to just walk away the process was ridiculous. Buat the sweetest premies were in the community where I last lived/practiced - old timers and their offspring, hippies. I don't have the heart to tell them they're deluding themselves. They were the kindest active premies I ever met. The fact that all their continuous effort has failed to bring maha to their cmmty ought to tell them something. Best wishes, Shereelove
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interesting observations Sherelove... In my experience Practising K does nothing for pain...(though I am not sure that it is claimed to on the tin?) "I pray thee, peace. I will be flesh and blood;
For there was never yet philosopher
That could endure the toothache patiently,
However they have writ the style of gods
And made a push at chance and sufferance." W. Shakespeare 'in Much Ado about nothing'
As for stress...I could and can feel peace when already calm ..but must say that K was of no comfort or use in the face of any real problems. 'I languished in the insulation of believing I was in the grace of God and connected to a divine master, as did so many of us. 30 years of practice developed in me a softness that I miss and a vulnerability that predisposes me to depression and anger.' Know what you mean. The illusion of that 'inner connection' thing is so pernicious and so strange when you look back on it. Rawat now presents himself as an inspirational speaker ..(incidentally was there foot kissing at Amaroo?) but whether he tags himself with the 'divine' word or not is quite irrelevant ..de facto he still assumes exactly that position in the lives of so many people...and he maintains it (instinctively or with calculated manipulation?) through suggestion. He suggest that his words are for YOU .... but of course they are not ...he doesn't know you and you don't know him. He suggests that he has some privileged insight into that one thing that is true, beautiful etc. He suggests that you, a true seeker, have a 'thirst' for that 'true knowledge' and that he can help. But who knows what he knows or the depths of his own self-delusion ? Who knows the fullness or emptiness of his heart? He suggests that you have a wonderful opportunity to feel 'that moment' and 'that eternal beauty' NOW! And so, with the suggestion that you now have 'permission' you then do take the space to feel what is deepest in you ..stillness ... a sense of beauty and kindness ..purity .... a small child. And then the band strikes up ' I was just a little child...Maya made my mind go wild....The Lord of all the Universe came down to show the way etc etc...' 'Surdas the Gardener...' And there you are tears running down your cheeks as you 'recognise' just who M must be ..there within your breath...that ever present quiet benifience...and you see how he has saved you ....and how immensely fortunate you are to be standing in seat/ row 41E .. to even be in the same room on the same planet and to be able to glimpse the tiny illuminated figure turn and offer his blessings before dissapearing behind the screen ... to .. to .. well probably off to down a few cognacs (and sod that Surdas stuff ..) .seems to be .that sort of Guru I am afraid Isn't it weird that we ever bought into him knowing anything and his sense of entitlement? But it is powerful suggestion and it works ...and now we see exactly how. I comfort myself though with the thought that the 'heavens' we sometimes felt were indeed very much of our own personal creation and, in as much they were ever truly a part of ourselves then they are still. I am not quite sure what I am trying to say here other than the fact that since K and Rawat actually added nothing other than a grand illusion then, equally, their subtraction removes nothing. I felt (and I apologise if wrong) that you wrote almost as if you believed that softness, sincerity, vulnerability and kindness were qualities that had been developed through practice of K or Rawat's teachings? Far from it they I am sure that they were just the inherent and unspoilt qualities of some of the people (to which for the 30 yr + crowd you can also add 'loyalty and patience') ..... the truth is (as LP wrote on a thread last year) we ourselves were the true source of eachothers inspiration but also (unfortunately) the affirmation that it must all be true. Have fun with your 'reconstruction'. True 'clarity' has its rewards. best Tim
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He openly states, boasts and publishes that he has the one and only privileged insight into that one thing that is true, beautiful etc and the one and only way into that one thing that is true, beautiful etc.
He openly states, boasts and publishes that you, a true seeker are only a true seeker if you have a 'thirst' that he has defined for that 'true knowledge' that only he can reveal and that he
can help but while he publicly uses the word 'help' to people who are not committed followers that is now only a shortcut to the knowledge that premies have, that the 'help' is actually the 'grace.'
He openly states, boasts and publishes that you have a wonderful opportunity to feel 'that moment'
and 'that eternal beauty' NOW and that of course is completely dependant on you recognising his primacy, because to be able to feel that is a 'gift' and by definition to receive a gift you have to have a giver and he is that giver and to be able to give such an infinite gift means ...
Furthermore the softness, sincerity, vulnerability and kindness of premies, even ex-hippie followers, is something I believe is greatly over-rated by many ex-premies who, like myself often enough in the past, remember only the good times and are also the very qualities that allowed many people to be inculcated with Rawatism or other guru cult beliefs. There are a lot of even nicer people who never strayed from the dominant ethos of their societies and the idea that premies are usually nicer is one of the bogus ideas left over from the counter-culture that spawned guru cults.
BTW I really like most of your posts but agreement and congratulations on the positives isn't really my style.
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what about premies who have been practicing Knowledge for 30 years or so with regular darshan. Are they extraordinary in any way? That was me and the only thing "extraordinary" about me was that I did that for over 30 years. 
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Hi Steve,
I would have to say that premies are not extraordinary in
any way. If anything, we are the spiritual lamers who could
not find a way to live without Maharaji. However, it's a
good question and it got me thinking about a related
question, regarding the folks who post here on EPO. I
don't know of any good numbers to use as a source, so
everything that follows is going to be pure guesswork.
But it was interesting to me, so I would like to share.
If anyone can help me make these figures more accurate,
I would very much appreciate it.
The Wiki article cites one source as saying there are
currently 15,000 active premies in the US. This seems like
a reasonable number to me. If true, and taking
300,000,000 as the currently population, then 1 out of
20,000 Americans would call themself a premie. Thus
one would expect that a city of about 600,000 would have
about 30 active premies, which I think is pretty accurate.
I don't think there are any accurate numbers for how
many people in the US have received knowledge in total,
but my intuitive estimate is that only about 5% of people
who have ever received knowledge still call themselves
premies. If true, then about 300,000 people in the US
have received knowledge.
Now let's look at people who post on EPO. I threw together
an app that looked at posting names for the current forum.
For example, there are 50 unique posters on the first page,
which goes back about a month. This was not a long enough
sample, so I checked all 34 pages, which go back
to Dec 2005, or about 75 weeks. In this sample I found
187 unique names. There are some which differ
only in case. For example, "Peter Jackson" vs
"peter jackson" (don't mean to pick on you Peter). And
there are a few like myself that are still premies, and a
few that were never premies.
Not everyone in the EPO is from the US. There
seem to be a lot of UK and Australian posters for
some reason. But I would guess that perhaps as many
as 75% are actual US ex-premies, so perhaps 140 are
US posters. That would make the number of US EPO
ex-premie posters less than 1/2 of 1 percent of the
total of people in the US who have received knowledge.
Therefore my question to this group is, what makes you
extraordinary enough to post on this forum?
Best Regards,
Sean
Modified by sean at Sun, May 20, 2007, 23:08:31
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Sean said... Therefore my question to this group is, what makes you
extraordinary enough to post on this forum? Maybe Sean, some people just want to share their thoughts & feelings about the real truth pertaining to Prem Rawat and his nasty little cult. Did you ever think about that one as far as anyone being qualified or "extraordinary enough" in order to post here. Time to Wake Up dude. Prem Rawat is a greedy little liar and nothing more. Old pic and quote...
Modified by hilltop at Sun, May 20, 2007, 23:50:00
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Hi Hilltop,
Please don't take offense, that was not my intent. If that
is what you read into my question, then I apologize.
Both the premie and the ex-premie populations are
small. This I think is a fact. We are 2 small groups in
a very large world. Both groups happen to be of value
to me.
If extraordinary is the wrong word, then I would
ask, What makes the EPO posters different from all of
the other ex-premies? I think this is a valid question,
don't you?
Regards,
Sean
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Yes, sure Sean that sounds like a valid question. Maybe it is only the Brave ex premies who are willing to admit that they were scammed by Prem Rawat. And after all many premies back then (and even nowadays) gave Prem Rawat money in order to kiss his feet. Who wants to admit to this fact. It's not an easy thing to do. Thank goodness for ex premies who tell the truth, anyhow. Prem Rawat surely doesn't seem like he ever wants to tell the real truth about it all.
Modified by hilltop at Mon, May 21, 2007, 01:42:13
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Hilltop,
You don't need to include images and quotes in your
responses. I admit that I considered Maharaji my lord,
that I gave him money and that I kissed his feet, OK?
There was no association in my mind between giving
money and kissing feet, but I can see how others
would see it that way.
If the difference between this forum and the other
ex-premies is indeed Bravery, then so be it. I had hoped
for a more introspective and self-aware response, but
perhaps I was wrong to hope for it.
Very Best Regards,
Sean
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Hi Sean, asking Hilltop not to use images and quotes is cramping style a bit. It's Hilltop's forte.
Considering this question from other scenarios around me and quite independently I came up with the common quality I have seen in "stayers". Sorry, (you might be an exception so don't take it personally), but that common quality that makes it impossible for a premie to hear reason, logic, or report that reverses or opposes their embedded concepts, beliefs and assertions; is a fear of god: even if that "god" cared nothing for truth (as M. has clearly demonstrated).
I phrased it in my mind earlier as a form of cowardice: (M. too).
The difference, IMO, is that people here realize that a 'god' who has no respect for truth is not 'God'. And even if he had other powers they would defy him. Even if he had a financial or more sinister hold over them; even if they have to break a former promise or vow, or admit that they and their commitments were wrong: they defy him. Even if being a part of his entourage had it's rewards in lifestyle or social outcomes they will defy him. They will not deify him any longer.
Saph.
Modified by Lp at Mon, May 21, 2007, 07:28:16
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thanks Hilltop for all these.
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>>asking Hilltop not to use images and quotes is cramping
>>style a bit. It's Hilltop's forte.
Point taken, thanks for reminding me.
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Hi Saph, Thank You for posting! It's been a while my friend. Great to see you here! Your right about me posting images and quotes. Some habits are hard to brake. And forgive me Sean, your right about posting Prem Rawat pics and quotes (as a weapon) I'm sorry about that... You deserve better. (as we all do) Not that I'm kissing any feet here, lol...but Truely, John and Mike have my respect for providing a place where we can talk about things (not that I talk much) that many of us have in common which is... Prem Rawat's mind abusing cult (or "peace" for premies) and the effects it had on us, our family, and our friends. Let's talk about the Time Lost by how many premies? and for how many years? How many seconds, minutes, hours, days, years, and even life times (added up) were stolen away by following Prem Rawat and his greedy little cult? This to me is the Real Crime... The Time Lost ... by not being with our real loved ones, including ourselves. Turning our own minds against ourselves. As you know Saph I left the forum abruptly. (maybe I needed a little vacation from thinking about anything to do with Prem Rawat) Because there is no healthy cult that I know of. Plus our leaders in charge of things, scare me too. However Saph, I always enjoy reading your posts. Your insiteful, helpful, and very creative and I like that alot. I'm Esp. happy when it comes to you replying to hilltop's posts. Now I sound like Prem Rawat... talking in the third person.. lol Best Thoughts to You and Everyone! I think Sean got great replys from you and from many others here as well. Hopefully, I can reply more tomarrow. In this attachment it's the thought that counts more than anything.
Modified by hilltop at Wed, May 23, 2007, 03:31:01
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I'm lost for words, It's always great to see your posts too. Seeing the "master" in the throes of saying his very own words always lends emphasis to a point. Especially when it is a very simple point that is flatly denied by all as if he possessed their minds. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot, he does.
There's one that looks so angry and filled with such sly loathing while saying he's the lord and master, I don't know how any one stayed. The sad thing is the devotee tends to believe that god can be a bit nasty, rather than that the Prem Rawat is not the lord. Fear, then, finally must be the holding force, with sad despair.
A dreadful position for an innocent, believing person. But who will they talk to? Not others: they are supposed to give satsang: - not premies: certainly not the "master", not even their own minds.
The lost time is agonizing to contemplate, and amounts to millenia. Even in the third person there must be no more foot kissing as you imply.
I needed a vacation from thinking of things connected to Prem Rawat and from the mentality of premies. I find the workings of the premie mind very wearing, distressing and I feel especially troubled because I helped it to happen.
That is why, health permitting, I can only ever take a temporary rest until this threat is gone from the planet.
Best wishes and happy thoughts to You and Everyone too!
Saph.
Modified by Lp at Wed, May 23, 2007, 07:02:37
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That's a grand place there LP - is it local? I much prefer that image to Hilltop's images ( generally ), but I do regard his potent reminders as an important feature of this place. There was another bloke here for a while who also posted images, but he seems to be gone now. Bit like Spiderman/Peter Parker - never in the room at the same time!
Stick around both of you ( though the need for holidays from any thoughts of Rawat is entirely understandable! ).
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Hi again, I apologise for taking so long to respond back. I like that picture you posted. You always manage to find great pics to post. But how about posting more oil paintings by you? I also like the outter space photos too. Esp. that one you once posted showing the earth as a dot from far, far away. It was and still is amazing. I mean... seriously, who needs Prem Rawat to tell us how fantastic it all is. He always wants to take credit for things... like our breath, just as an example. Not to put you on the spot (and many others already agree with this)... You have been very helpful and have said great things on this forum while telling the truth about Prem Rawat's cult from your own insites and experiences. Did you help it to happen? Yes and you are a part of that history, but please don't carry that kinda weight on your shoulders forever. It's not healthy. I helped bring a few people to knowledge too and at the time I would have brought many more if I could of and I had the best intentions. We were all (more or less) used as we learned to shut down our minds by trusting in him, only to become a part of Prem Rawat's scam. But I understand your point of view. I hope your OK Saph because you mentioned... health permitting. Anyhow Saph, My Best Thoughts To You. From one fly to another. Hilltop
Modified by hilltop at Sat, May 26, 2007, 22:59:14
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Sean, For myself, I'm not sure there's any one, particular reason why some exes post and most don't. People get into things, develop habits, a little this, a little that. I'm sure that most exes, which actually includes most premies because almost all over time have left the cult, think Rawat's a fraud. Well they'd have to, wouldn't they? They know how much he claimed and how it all amounted to not like the proverbial cake left out in the rain. They're not fooled by the meaningless and transparent desperate effort to whitewash this goofball's life story. Premies who haven't and may never throw in the towel yet might try to persuade themselves otherwise but everyone else knows. But most people just don't care that much. That's been my experience. They're a little embarrassed perhaps. Often they're completely happy that someone's putting it to their intoxicatingly ugly former master publically, just not them. That's the general impression I've gotten over the years. So what's your opinion, Sean? And while we're at it, why do you think there aren't more premies posting openly about Rawat, either here or elsewhere?
Modified by Jim at Mon, May 21, 2007, 16:35:59
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>So what's your opinion, Sean?
I had an opinion when I asked this question, but the range
of responses so far makes me think it was overly simplistic.
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Loved your description of premies, though I'm not positive you meant it the way it reads!!But Sean, you're doing that premie-agressive thing again, you know, where you ask a question to set someone up, then shoot down anyone who answers you with shit like "I had hoped for a more introspective and self-aware response, but perhaps I was wrong to hope for it." How veddy superior of you. And I'm curious to know - why ARE you running little apps on people who post here?
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>Loved your description of premies, though I'm not positive
>you meant it the way it reads!!
It's OK, I meant it to read that way. But truth, I think
everyone is, the difference is that premies use Maharaji
as their crutch, where others use Science, Jesus, etc.
>But Sean, you're doing that premie-agressive
>thing again
Hilltop started it! 
>And I'm curious to know - why ARE you running little
>apps on people who post here?
I have been curious about forum attendance for a long
time, but never got around to actually counting. Some
while back I tried to write an app to help people track
new posts on another forum. But I used C++ and the
result was fragile and over-complex, and took days to
write. This time I tried Java, and it was awesome -
1 hour to write and debug, and it will run anywhere.
Modified by sean at Mon, May 21, 2007, 23:18:44
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I love Java myself but it is a tad slow (for some typer of apps, really slow) but it won't run everywhere, it has the potential to run everywhere.
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I will admit that "Run anywhere" is just Sun hype.
Java's secret is that it was originally written to be a
networking language, as the ease of writing my little
app has shown me. But I would personally say that
it's real strength is the vast library of builtin functions,
AKA proprietary components, which make it possible to
write wonderfully complex edifices of thought, magically
frozen into interpreted bytecode. Now, Please don't take
me off-topic anymore into geekdom, lest I get myself
banned
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This lotus flower is for you... Best Thoughts!
Modified by hilltop at Wed, May 23, 2007, 03:27:34
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I'm curious, Sean, as to why you wouldn't want Hilltop to post images. Would you prefer not to be visually reminded of what the cult is really like? I can certainly understand that. I'd rather not look at pictures that would remind me of stupid things I've done in the past, either. However, if such pictures could help tell the truth about something disgusting, and possibly keep others from doing the same stupid things, then I'd be okay with it.
Hilltop, thank you for posting this picture. Even with the hundreds of images I've seen, I had missed this one. It was sickening to look at it, but I appreciate that you shared it. It helps to know the depth of the mind control involved. Rawat is a despicable creature.
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>I'm curious, Sean, as to why you wouldn't want Hilltop to
>post images.
Normally it does not bother me. In this one case,
I felt that Hilltop was using the images in the way that
you sometimes see Christians use, quoting the Bible
instead of engaging in a real dialog.
But in a neutral context, I like seeing pictures and
quotes like that. I don't think I react to them in the
same way that you do.
Modified by sean at Mon, May 21, 2007, 22:18:12
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I like seeing pictures and quotes like that.
Interesting. Other premies I know say the same thing. It doesn't matter how disgusting and damning the picture of rawat is, they will say they like it. Can the mind control/brain washing go that deep? Apparently so.
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We got over the embarrassment of having been such mugs sufficiently to be able to post.
Plus, any of the following -
We want to figure out how and why we were mugged, out of curiosity and to try to ensure we don't make such a bad move again.
We want to help other people so they don't fall into the same trap.
We would like Rawat's insidious game to end.
I don't think there is any need for extraordinariness in explaining why we do it.
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>What makes the EPO posters different from all of
the other ex-premies?< It may be a valid question but it is fundamentally different from Steve's equally valid question. The posters on this forum (which is not EPO) make no claim about any practice or activity that they may share in common. Premies on the other hand all have a shared practice, and that practice is claimed to confer peace or happiness or contentment. It is a common human experience that being at peace, or being happy or being content is usually expressed in the demenour, lifestyle, behaviour etc of those who have such an experience. If Rawat's Knowledge works it should be expected that the group which practices it would demonstrate both collectively and individually some distinctive character that is expressive of the 'extraordinary gift' that Rawat offers. But it's not there is it ? The lie is constantly given - Rawat's obesity, Jagdeo's pedophilia, Fakiranand's violence, the bitter attacks on exs by premies, the lack of openess about organisational finances, the petty oneupmanship of the inner circle, the dreadful record of many premies as parents, the endemic lack marital fidelity. And if Knowledge doesn't have any expression in those who practice it - what use is it ? Nik
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Hi Sean,
I'm not sure about what you mean.
But ........ I've been more or less involved here for almost a decade, I've personally met lots of people who've been posting here, and I've met in person lots of people who've been involved in rawatism and never posted here.
My opinion is that people who've posted here and participated in a way or another to EPO are interested in sharing their past experience here for various reasons (maybe we can make a list - I guess it's already been done several time and can be figured out easily)
and people who don't care about EPO, this forum and other places managed by ex-premies don't care because they don't care !!
They're involved in other things, busy with other things etc.
That doens't mean they don't like discussing their past involvement - but they most of them won't do it here for their own reasons.
And believe me, lots of them did in other places, with friends, a therapist etc
What makes the 1st people different from the the 2nd category ? Everybody is different, and there is no simple key.
Cults and cultish thinking give simple answers. But reality is different, complex, and can't be grasped easily most of the time, specially in the field of psychology, relationships, influences, groups, interactions, abuses etc
I'm afraid you're still very much under the influence of rawatian thinking.
Here is an other very interesting question: I've noticed that many people living in big cities enjoy different places, countryside, vacation in other spots, travels etc
and some people only love vacation by the sea and nothing else.
What makes them different ?
On top of this, some people living in Paris for instance don't enjoy other places at all. The only place they love is here !!
Why is this ?
There is no simple answer to that sort of question.
The key: use you mind - again, it's yours to be used. Reality is complex.
Modified by Jean-Michel at Thu, May 24, 2007, 03:41:22
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You be the judge... Because of the truth spoken here on this forum and EPO, it's no wonder as to why Prem Rawat has told his followers not to come here.
Modified by hilltop at Mon, May 21, 2007, 00:47:02
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would you tell me when and where this page was published? thanks.
Modified by Axis at Mon, May 21, 2007, 09:32:04
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Sean As 13 says there is nothing extraordinary about people posting here, just some ordinary reasons for people to post here. Good solid common sense reasons. Based on your own calculations, any teacher who has lost 95% of his students must by any calculations be an absolute dismal failure. If such a high drop out rate would be experienced by say a university tutor s/he will have been sacked immediatly. Remind me, what does Prem Rawat teach again? What is he a master of? T
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Hi T,
As you and 13 make clear, perhaps the only extraordinary thing is the outrageous god claim in the first place and then the smiling bare faced denial later on.
M. once said common sense is very uncommon. He wishes.
Lp
Modified by Lp at Mon, May 21, 2007, 04:27:33
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Hi Sean, big error bars surely! Part of my definition of an 'active' premie would include being bothered to see M when in the same country..or part of the country at the very minimum. I went to three US events in past few years ...The Shrine, Miami and I really don't think there were more than 4000 .. if that at any? The same for European events. The number of 'active' premies that go to local events..do propogation and contribute financially isn't more than 1500 imo. As you know the vast majority of former followers just drift off and even amongst those of us who would definitively tag themselves 'ex-premie' by far the majority don't post. I agree that there is nothing 'brave' about posting ..it is simply that some people 'like to talk' ...imo we are a self-selecting group of people who like to (have a cup of tea if you are UK) and chat on this medium. But it is no count of numbers. Otherwise, logically, you would estimate premie numbers simply by the numbers that chat regularly on their fora. Heavens that sum would give you more exes than premies best Tim
Modified by tommo at Mon, May 21, 2007, 03:15:53
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Hi Tommo,
I think the vast majority of exes might have forgotten the whole thing and even if reminded, are probably only too keen to put it behind them.
In that sense we might represent those, who, for one reason or another, could not forget so easily. My wild unqualified quess is that considerably less than .05 per cent of leavers post here. Many more read it though.
regards
lp
Modified by Lp at Mon, May 21, 2007, 07:33:44
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Hello LP, that would be my guess too ...but don't really know. Incidentally are you still planning to compile a book? judging by some of the snippets it would be a real quality read ...and your sales would greatly exceed Cagan! all the best Tim
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Big error bars, indeed! If the count is restricted to active
premies as you have defined them, then 4K sounds about
right. I made the basic mistake of not defining my terms.
I had meant to widen the spectrum to include even those
who merely meditate occasionally and who still think
knowledge is real.
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between premies and ex-premies has always been a debatable issue.
It sounds harsh and effects a permanent change in relations, but the only test that is conclusive for me: -
(If I meditate I don't suddenly become a premie again - (aspects of the knowledge are obviously real, being life signs,) (premies are quite good at disguising their involvement and creating euphemisms where called for,)
- The only true test I know of, that is simple and conclusive, is the fact that the disguises drop off and the cat leaps out of the bag when the guru is criticized.
Warning While M. probably deserves criticizing indefinitely, doing so, even specifically and merely for test purposes, will permanently damage relationships with persons in question if they do turn out to be still premies: - (Even (especially) if you explain afterwards that it was a test.)
Lp
Modified by Lp at Tue, May 22, 2007, 03:16:24
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I still meditate, it goes in phases, up a bit at the mo, I value the experience bigtime, but it's got nothing to do with Rawat, after all Shri Hans just nicked the techniques, and the bhakti yoga concept from elsewhere, when he started his new career.
Where you got the idea from that knowledge is unique, and to rawat is very bizarre, can't imagine where you got that from 
Of course our defintion of knowledge being real, as in I assume you mean it as the underlying truth behind all of reality, uh no, that I don't see, but life affirming, intoxicating at times, increasing my sense of self, chilling out the thought agitation, all good stuff, but that could just be biology and in built cvhemicals kickingin, the same as they do for any activity.
So sorry, your definitions are way too generalized.
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Hi Hamzen,
>Where you got the idea from that knowledge is unique,
>and to rawat is very bizarre,
Can you remind me of when I ever claimed or professed
that knowledge is unique, and only comes from or
through Maharaji? If so, I am more than willing to
unsay those words publicly now. But I really can't
recall believing or saying that, ever.
Regards,
Sean
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I had meant to widen the spectrum to include even those
who merely meditate occasionally and who still think
knowledge is real.
Why would you include people meditating on the rawat techniques and thinking k is real in the premie figures unless you had those beliefs about k and rawat?
It didn't seem to occur to you that ex-premies might still meditate and get a lot of value from the approach, by any definityion that doesn't make me a premie, UNLESS you see the techniques as his.
Modified by hamzen at Wed, May 23, 2007, 06:04:45
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FYI, this forum isn't part of EPO, so none of us are posting on EPO. Lots of people get that confused.  Therefore my question to this group is, what makes you
extraordinary enough to post on this forum? Nothing. There's no qualification to post on this forum and I don't consider myself extraordinary, although I do consider many other people that do write here to be extradordinary people and excellent writers. What makes ex-premies different (from premies) is their honesty in discussions and in deconstructing their involvement with Maharaji.
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There are NO 15,000 premies in the USA! I was actively involved and know the real numbers. Even that I left a few years ago I can conclude, since K doesn't work, that the numbers are fake. Only two people received K in my area and they were disapointed; they never returned. When at times we participants, heads of our Michigan community would get discouraged of presenting videos and only two, three people showed up (the ones organizing it) David Mancoff and David Smith would remind us that other communities in the USA were in even worse shape, their attendance numbers were even lower. Can you imagine how? In some areas there were only two people showing up. I traveled to other cities and saw it with my own eyes. In Ohio, when Charananad visited in the late 90's, a small group of people were there and many of us came from other cities! There was another participation program in Chicago and there were about 60 people who got there from many cities. There were in our area two, three regulars attendants and at times, with great effort, sending invitaions by mail, getting on the phone, luring them with coockies or meals, then, the attendance went up. We were all very tired and discouraged because we were spending a great amount of time and money to present all those events and only two received K in 10 years. Face it. He is a liar. He uses old photos and footage in his DVDs/Videos showing large amount of people but most of us are gone. He uses old stuff to lure newcomers. In large programs as Miami, or California, there were a few thousands because premies come from all over the world. So, I don't know where rawat got those numbers, well, I know, lying. What makes me extraordinary to post in this forum? Thanks to this forum I left Rawat behind in Nov.99 and I have seen many, many people brake free from the incidious evil cult. The forum serves a good purpose and makes it extraordinary to be part of such a good deed. Premies regain their freedom and that is extra ordinary. Considering how deep the brainwashing was for some of us, staying for 25-30 years, to escape, is very good. Rawat's teachings are toxic and dangerous; he talks about freedom and "God" but fails to tell people the truth. All is upside down in his world. He takes away freedom and the god he talks about is just some strange influence that does not come from God, of course. Greater is the one in heaven than the one who walks in the world. Premies yearn for rawat? Why? GOD is with them 100% of the time! You see? Faith is enough, but because rawat is but a little, tinny god, that is why premies HAVE to yearn for him, as rawat has programmed them to feel. As a little god that he is, he makes other dependants of him because as he himself said, the devotees need the master but the master needs the $$$devotees$$$ also. GOD doesn't need anyone. People need GOD and His help to defeat darkness. Rawat is $$$darkness$$$. Beside your points, who cares about the number game? You make it sound like a competence. This forum and EPO are a excellent way for people to heal their minds and to help others escape the brainwashing cult. EPO and the forum is the key to freedom. Very special place. Peace and best regards to you. Silvia
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Come on, Axis, you know better than that. Or what? The devil made you do it?
Modified by Jim at Mon, May 21, 2007, 16:22:41
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Hi Sean, Your stats seem like tentative guesswork and rather unbelievable to me. As far as I know this is just a forum or talkboard.Ex-premies are not a "group" but completely different individuals with different points of view who happen to post here. Leaving the cult for me involved trying to reclaim my lost self....that person with the clear and unique identity who existed before Rawat's poisonous philosophy (in its full and rampant incarnation during the early seventies.....the "world" is "maya"/illusion/mine,thine wealth /health give them to the lotus feet of love bla bla bla) infected and weakened me. I like reading and posting here from time to time and that's why I do it. I was a really gopi type,true believer devotee who sang arti with desperate longing and tears streaming down my face........now I've joined the normal world again after so long (phew,what a relief !).It helps my reintegration to write here. I enjoy writing and communication. It isn't difficult for me.I post on other non-Rawat related boards as well. Lots of ex-premies don't post here,I suppose, because they don't want to.It isn't their thing.Some probably don't like writing and never use the internet. In conclusion there is nothing to understand about the widely differing types who post here.Some may be extraordinary in some aspect of their lives (I don't know them and I've no idea!) but most are probably just plain average like me.
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>Your stats seem like tentative guesswork and
>rather unbelievable to me.
Exactly right. I would especially like to know how
many people in the US have received knowledge.
I guess that answer will never be known though.
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Are ex-premies extraordinary? Some are some aren't. Same with premies I guess. Am I extraordinary? Yes. Seriously though I still maintain that meditation can make people more conscious and I see value in that. I feel that the way Knowledge was presented, particularly in the 70s and 80s, was detrimental. IMO forcing people to doubt their intellects and to become kowtowing wusses is not healthy. According the Mishler, “The ashram program was causing people to be more inept. Many people - not everyone, but many people were becoming less capable as individuals rather than becoming more capable as we had purported that they would be as a result of realising this Knowledge.” So the techniques of Knowledge are useful and the bullshit surrounding them isn't.
Modified by Steve at Mon, May 21, 2007, 20:58:42
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Sean, Rawat most definitely presented Knowledge as something at odds with intellect. Yes, I know he sometimes tried to distinguish the latter from the mind but usually he didn't and, even when he did, I'd say the distinction he tried to make was meaningless. So, setting aside the fact that I think it's all bunk anyway, please answer the following questions: 1) Did Rawat present Knowledge correctly? 2) If so, then how was it presented wrong by others? 3) If not, then how is he the "perfect master" of this subject? 4) What, in your view, is the proper way to present Knowledge? I'm looking forward to full, specific and responsive answers. Please don't disappoint.
Modified by Jim at Mon, May 21, 2007, 21:53:23
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>Rawat most definitely presented Knowledge as something
>at odds with intellect.
I agree completely. I have personally never had any
problem with intellectual accomplishments.
Like athletic ability, it has it's own place, challenges
and rewards.
>So, setting aside the fact that I think it's all bunk anyway
I am willing to set aside this fact. But first, please
demonstrate that you can set it aside also. Then I
will attempt some answers
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Sorry, Sean, but your post is just plain dumb. You didn't get what I was saying and you didn't answer me in the slightest. Stu...... pid.
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I mixed up Steve and Sean. Sorry. Steve, you're the one who says that Knowledge wasn't presented properly back then and that, in particular, it was wrong to suggest it conflicted with intellect. Whose fault was that, Steve?
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Sean, Steve
Rawat most definitely presented Knowledge as something at odds with intellect. Yes, I know he sometimes tried to distinguish the latter from the mind but usually he didn't and, even when he did, I'd say the distinction he tried to make was meaningless. So, setting aside the fact that I think it's all bunk anyway, please answer the following questions: 1) Did Rawat present Knowledge correctly? 2) If so, then how was it presented wrong by others? 3) If not, then how is he the "perfect master" of this subject? 4) What, in your view, is the proper way to present Knowledge? I'm looking forward to full, specific and responsive answers. Please don't disappoint. I mixed up Steve and Sean. Sorry. Steve, you're the one who says that Knowledge wasn't presented properly back then and that, in particular, it was wrong to suggest it conflicted with intellect. Whose fault was that, Steve? Whose fault was that? I was clearly Rawat's fault. Who else's fault could it be? Just for the record I said, " . . . the way Knowledge was presented, particularly in the 70s and 80s, was detrimental. IMO forcing people to doubt their intellects and to become kowtowing wusses is not healthy." IMO intellect and mind are same thing. 1) Did Rawat present Knowledge correctly? No, he didn't. IMO Knowledge is four meditation techniques that could have been presented far more simply. 2) If so, then how was it presented wrong by others? IMO Rawat did not present Knowledge correctly and premies were told to follow agya, right, so who would these "others" be? 3) If not, then how is he the "perfect master" of this subject? Rawat is not the perfect master of this subject. That's why I'm an ex. 4) What, in your view, is the proper way to present Knowledge? Yoga and meditation classes, perhaps a book. I don't understand your line of questioning. Please re-read my posts. I think you're confusing me with Sean?
Modified by Steve at Tue, May 22, 2007, 22:37:40
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My line of questioning was skewed because, confusing you for a premie, I assumed that you believed that Rawat had presented Knowledge as not conflicting with intellect. Even still, I don't think it's fair to say that Knowledge is just four meditation techniques. I mean there's no law of nature to the contrary but clearly the whole notion of Knowledge, with or without Rawat, includes the heavy baggage of spiritual beliefs such as that it's a doorway to a higher consciousness. Do you think that there are any yoga or meditation classes or books that present Knowledge without this baggage? Where? Saying that it's just some meditation techniques is like saying that prayer is just words. It overlooks the philosophy that started the concept.
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"Saying that it's just some meditation techniques is like saying that
prayer is just words. It overlooks the philosophy that started the
concept. "
I wish I had made that up. You won't mind if I use it some or many times in the future during conversations as if it had just sprung from my creative flow and don't give you any attribution, will you?
Or did you read it somewhere and somebody might know I'm just pretending it's my very own?
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Actually Steve, Bob Mishler had no evidence for that statement except that, it had become obvious to him and opther managers of DLM at the time, that practising "Knowledge" was not having the strong positive effects that the young Rawat, his family and the early premies such as Mahatma Saphlanand had claimed and in most cases believed.
As the idea that "practising the divine Knowledge of God as revealed by the Lord of the Universe incarnate was useless" was a pretty big step to take, Mishler and others deluded themselves that it might be the ashram lifestyle that was the problem. However, even then, only a minority of premies were in the ashram and householders were no more "realised" than ashramees. With 30 years' hindsight we can now easily see his error, epsecially as we aren't under the extraordinary pressures that he was under with an ignorant, randy, drunken, materialistic, teenage guru running through the DLM cash flow like a piranha.
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Well if premies aren't extraordinary then logically ex-premies can't be either as they all were premies once unless the reason there are no extraordinary premies is that all the extraordinary ones are now ex-premies!
You've accepted a more realistic figure for premies in the USA and you appear also to accept tommos' ideas about "active premies" so you are certainly capable of critical thought and understanding.
I suspect that ex-premies who have ever posted or continue to be involved in any public criticisms of Rawat do so for a number of different reasons.
I was always interested in Eastern spirituality from an early age before there were hippies and a counter-culture and I've maintained that interest to this day. I was a premie and I was married to a premie and still even know a few premies.
Those seem good enough reasons to me to be involved in attempting to have the truth, as best it can be determined, about Prem Rawat and the Rawatism cult publicised.
I am sure though that I will continue spending part of my time actively attempting to have the truth, as best it can be determined, about Prem Rawat and the Rawatism cult publicised for the rest of my life because of nine words my ex-wife uttered in terrible anguish at the end of the most intense argument we ever had.
"It's not Maharaji's fault I'm such a bad premie!"
She was a very unaverage premie and if practising the techniques of meditation as "revealed by Prem Rawat" without fail for at least the recommended daily time while missing only one morning due to illness in 20 years, never going to the beach before meditation else she'd be so relaxed she'd fall asleep while trying to meditate, having all possible Knowledge Reviews over a 30 year period, having darshan whenever financially possible, religiously going to satsang or watching Rawat's movies, videos or DVDs or satellite broadcasts and listening to Rawat tapes in the car, purchasing and listening to Rawatism music tapes or CDs and having completely overblown ideas about Daya's or Wadi's singing talent, actually finding Rawat's jokes funny and his stories interesting and lastly being the organisational bedrock of her local community for decades to the detriment of her health while taking on the most humble service during programs such as washing dishes or weeding and planting trees is not enough so that you can answer your husband's relentless questioning about why not even the person who loves her most sees the slightest positive influence from her devotion to Rawat and her ssm&d, while not a single member of her family, friends, work-colleagues, neighbours or acquaintances has ever been impressed enough to want to Discover More, why she accepts the most ethically challenged behaviour from Rawat's organisations unquestioningly, why she is part of the Rawatism conspiracy to subvert people into becoming devotees with false advertising and that she basically lies about her experience and how the meditation hasn't prevented or ameliorated her deep depression since I became involved in the legal case of IRCC against John MacGregor and probably I made a lot of other cutting remarks including the fact that if anyone thought either of us meditated, surely it would be me, the relentlessly cheerful, outgoing gregarious one of us not the shy, anxious, withdrawn, nervous one that they would imagine is the meditator.
Many people would say I was an unfeeling and despicable husband to cause my wife, a person who truly only wanted to do good, such pain but I see it caused by Rawat's continual movement away from truth, consciousness and bliss (not that he ever had them) into deeper and deeper deceit and the compromising of his followers who continued to accept his lies until the point where my need for truth and clarity in life finally collided with Rawatism's dark side and exploded, emotionally at last.
So Sean, I doubt anyone else who posts here has a similar reason to be an "extra-ordinary ex-premie" who is prepared to take time and effort truth-telling about Rawat (and as you are aware only a small fraction do) and I certainly hope not as well.
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.......I doubt anyone else who posts here has a similar reason to be an "extra-ordinary ex-premie".........
That's a really tragic story Ocker, but reading between the lines of things other posters have said here from time to time, I don't think you're as quite alone as you think in that regard............unfortunately.
Best wishes to you, & pity to the one who immolated herself, as a sacrificial victim on the altar of Rawat's bullshit.
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My ex was happier than Ocker's by the sound of it, but all the other patterns, rather too familiar, pretty sad really, as was the end of her life, ah well, such is.
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"the compromising of his followers who continued to accept his lies
until the point where my need for truth and clarity in life finally
collided with Rawatism's dark side and exploded, emotionally at last."
Nicely put. Yes, I had wondered if it hadn't been something along those lines.
That guru's a bitch, he really is. 
I guess it's possible that that 'greater than god' guru caused greater problems than god normally does. Thinking about it though we, as has happened historically, have to a large degree come from marriages socially designed to include god in their love life.
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Ocker.. Occasionally people write things on this forum that are deeply moving and so bloody obviously accurately and lovingly observed. thanks .. truth matters all the best Tim
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Ocker,
Thank you for sharing this, and for reminding me
that on the other side of these posts there is a
real human being.
Respect and very best regards to you and your wife,
Sean
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Hi Sean,The number of premies turning up at events is extremely low when compared to the number of people that have received knowledge over the last 30 odd years. However you work your statistics, the reality is - in the west - that M has been a total failure. But more importantly, why does Maharaji go on and on about statistics so much? It's such a big thing for him and I've never understood why. He seems to thrive on quoting all sorts figures to big-up how successful he is, which makes him look vulnerable and shallow, and out of touch with reality. But these big numbers are only ever in India. Never any where else. I often wondered why numbers were so important to him. Surely quality is more important that quantity. Take a good hard look, an honest appraisal, of the real figures, and change your approach if necessary. It's as if Maharaji doesn't want to learn from his mistakes. And as he's been in charge of propagation for so long now, it is definitely down to him. If Maharaji had spent more time taking real care of the premies that he already had, and less time fussing about his own ego with numbers, then I think today he would have been much more successful. Instead of the dismal failure that he is with such a high fallout rate. So what if X thousand people turned up for a programme in India last week! What about the premie that needs his guidance, and who has been trying to get advice? A situation for which there is no strategy in place. Truth is, Maharaji is so carried away with his own self importance, that he can't see what's in front of his own nose, and all those missed opportunities. Take care
Stardust
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Hi Stardust,
>The number of premies turning up at events is
>extremely low when
compared to the number of people
>that have received knowledge over the
last 30 odd
>years.
Agreed. But to what precision can we say how low?
This is the magical number I had to make up out of
thin air. I chose 5%. And as another poster made clear,
"active premies" is the wrong term. It should have been,
"people who have received knowledge and still attend
events, at least occasionally".
>However you work your statistics
I promise, I am not trying to work these numbers
to any end; I am doing my best to look at them
objectively, and let them speak for themselves.
>So what if X thousand people turned up for a
>programme in India last week
This is precisely why I limited the question to
US premies. I only felt capable of making reasonable
guesses about the local population.
Regards,
Sean
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If surrender of ones life to Mr Rawat is still at the heart of this matter then premies are extraordinary. Premies reading this could you explain this extraordinary relationship. Sean, Jossi??? Or, has Mr Rawat stopped encouraging surrender of ones life to him in order to realise knowledge? Or, maybe I misunderstood for 25 years. turey, the once extraordinary.
Modified by turey at Tue, May 22, 2007, 22:58:53
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I don't think Rawat has any abilities that would allow him to actually provide individual guidance and he's probably better off not attempting anything like that. The Training video ( http://www.ex-premie.org/video/atlanta.html ) is the only footage of him I've seen where he is doing more than sitting on stage and blathering Rawatism vapourware for nearly an hour and he is extremely unimpressive.
Plus he can't be the sort of person who enjoys being with premies because he's avoided one to one contact with all but his inner circle since he came to the West. If I was the guru I'd be out and about chatting and meeting premies and kissing babies and having cups of tea and coffee with my followers. It's not as if he has so many in the West that it's not possible.
But you've really hit the nail on the head with why he goes on and on about statistics and they're all showing how successful he is and leaving India out of the equation they are all false. False in the sense that as even honest premies and sympathisers like Sean have to admit it is obvious how numbers are less than half what they were 30 years ago. So it may be true that propagation has risen 300% in the first 3 months of 2007 over 2006 in the US (I made that up but it's indicative of EV spin) if there were 10 aspirants last year and 30 this year but that is undeniable failure not success.
Now premies can rationalise the failure of propagation as the failure of the human race rather than the failure of the true Perfect Master, Satguru Prem Rawat, but how they can rationalise Rawat's rubbery statistics is beyond me. Sure some of them are stupid and some of them naive and some of them have no statistical knowledge but overall the majority must know it's mahabullshit.
The only explanation I have for his behaviour and his parrotting of his "success" via statistics is that he is a neurotic, pathetic creep living in a fantasy world being toadied to by his X-rated innner circle.
If Sean can come up with another reasonable explanation that doesn't make Rawat look like an arsehole (Oztralian spelling) I'd love to hear it.
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Isn't Prem with numbers and charts just the lost actor despearately playing Shri Rawat "international businessman" - itself just a version of Captain Rawat "jet pilot" - itself just a version of Prem Rawat "management trainer" - itself just a version of Prem Rawat aka Maharaji "peace advocate and teacher" ? When the props dwarf actor - the play will have a short run.
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someone with a name like Guru: Balyogeshwar Paramhans Sadgurudev Shri Sant Ji, Maharaj would need more titles. I guess it goes with the territory of being everything.
Perhaps that's why he can take without shame, being all that is, he is just reclaiming himself. Others aren't real to him.
Followers are already in error seeming to be evidence of some belief in an other. All that does not act as if a part or an extension of his own self seems to trouble him. He is probably genuinely puzzled, when the chocolate machine fails to deliver, and personally offended when the hammer accidently hits the thumb.
As if in a correct world everything would be in service to him. He could be whoever he likes and all would automatically approve.
He admires influential people but only wants their influence for himself and desires and intends to reduce them to his servants.
I doubt if he can ever be happy. He is more likely to be secretly frustrated that the whole universe is not in constant attendance at his feet, but instead, except for a pathetic but faithful few, it acts as if it didn't even know who he is.
Perhaps another title and a little more fame and acclaim will do the trick.
Modified by Lp at Wed, May 23, 2007, 17:57:21
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