|
|
|
I haven't had the "grace" to have heard such drops of "wisdom" from the "master" for a while. He painted one picture which I am aware of and which I consider to be nothing more than a copy of a Dali painting entitled Rose Meditative that is illustrated below. I remember some of his critical toilet humour at events in regard of paintings he had seen of other artists at galleries. One painting made him an expert on art I suppose even if he copied the idea. Well everyone is entitled to an opinion in regard of art but this evolution stuff is pure drivel. If he bases his knowledge of evolution on stuff like a Rachael Welch film what will he say after he sees Dr Doolittle? 
Modified by MarkT at Sun, Dec 18, 2005, 13:42:15
|
|
|
|
Anyone with recent exposure to Intelligent Design theory or Creationism without industrial headgear could check out.. http://www.gruts.com/darwin/ On-topic: somewhere on disc I have a gem of a Maharaji talk that explains why ants don't have to struggle and plums fall off trees, etc... The more M's vanity and stupidity turn him into a laughing stock, the less the rest of us have to do (but laugh!
Modified by Nigel at Sun, Dec 18, 2005, 16:53:22
|
|
|
|
When I first read Aunt Bea's post I was dumbstruck but felt a response was deserved. I just didn't know what to say. Here we have a man who has lived a jet-setting playboy lifestyle for over 30 years comparing the misery experienced by many in this world as being of their own making and comparable to the "choices" made by nature during the evolutionary process! Words almost fail me. What is even more astonishing is the amount of money some pay to go and listen to it live. Maharaji, who writes your scripts?
Modified by MarkT at Sun, Dec 18, 2005, 17:19:18
|
|
|
|
Hi Mark I think that the ideas that Rawat are imprinting on the faithful are quite dangerous. If ones follows his logic and does not ask for what one wants in life then they are forever damned to not achieving one's life. This smacks of a very bad Hindu dose of Karma and the cycle of birth and death. Or rather Rawat seems to have taken some elements of Hinduism, together with some Christian elements, jumbled them all up and presented them as something new and exciting. Refried religion basically. And of course all the faithful know (nod nod and wink wink) who the person is that can provide them with the answers to their questions. This really is in essence why I chose to stop being one of the faithful. Once it became clear to me what a total jackass he is and how he personally is not able to temper his own tantrums (witness the various training programs for example) then I simply knew that I would not want him as any form of Guru, teacher or whatever. There was simply too much risk of him leading me up the wrong garden path. Phew, what a lucky escape! Since then I've been quite happy following my own path. In fact the path I'm now on is a bloody great big highway rather then the narrow precipice that is Rawat's. In Rawat's world there was always the sense of impending failure, failure to live up to some fantasy, something that can never be achieved. Oftentimes it felt good I admit, and that holds the faithful in, but there was the constant feeling of never 'arriving', always a need to achieve something more unreal. But that I guess is the basic trick of guruism, keeping the faithful in a state of inadequacy, in a state of neediness. T ps - I have been enjoying your posts Mark.
Modified by T at Mon, Dec 19, 2005, 12:07:41
|
|
|
|
I suppose I was placing his sociological "words of truth" in the wider context of the real world, the world outside his little bubble which is why they appeared even more absurd. His "truth" falls down like a domino rally when applied to the whole of humanity. So much for the "universal truth" of the master. When placed in their true context of being preached to the faithful they do indeed aquire a more dangerous interpretation rather than being simply absurd but also somewhat irrelevant. It has been interesting to see the other "skills" manifested by the "master" as described in this thread. Poet, artist, musician and let's not forget inventor. The great thing about establishing an audience of the devoted was that a ready market was also there for the taking. Why pay half the price for a Dali print when you can pay double for one similar from the "master"? Am I alone or was I alone in finding the works of One Foundation so bland. Maybe they played better stuff away from the glare of the premie spotlight but why were their recordings so expensive when compared to the world outside the bubble of "love". It seems "love" carried an expensive price tag at every level it manifested. That always made me wonder and probably paved the way for my eventual disbelieving when I read EPO. It is great to hear that a highway has opened up for you T. I think we became conditioned to regard many of our own skills as worthless or irrelevant in the premie world. I don't suppose we would ever have been given a licence to open up a market stall next to the "lords" in the temple of "grace". Ask and it shall be given he said. I remember a full moon in July in 1972, somewhere in London. Maharaji was somewhere else but Prakash Bai said, "Maharaji is so happy on this night (Guru Puja) that he will grant any wish that is made". I was not a premie at the time and my mind obviously thought of few things I'd like such as a million pound. However, my excitement was short lived for she then said, "But Maharaji knows what is best for us and only grants those wishes that are for something good for us". I interpreted that as meaning knowledge and so changed my wish. Oh what a fool I was, I could have been a millionaire but instead chose knowledge. 
Modified by MarkT at Mon, Dec 19, 2005, 15:19:18
|
|
|
|
Am I alone or was I alone in finding the works of One Foundation so bland.[?] No, you weren't alone. I found there stuff amazingly boring and, in fact, I never thought they were even that musically talented. I never thought Kim Fields could really sing -- I mean she didn't have much of a voice. There were more talented musicians in the cult than One Foundation, but because they didn't have the official blessing, they didn't get to perform much. What I found particularly awful was One Foundation's anemic and really dead attempts as reggae. It really sucked, and we had to sit and listen to it for what seemed like hours. Remember, it got SO bland, that it was just One Foundation and Rich Neel. It's amazing that we didn't all slit our wrists.
Modified by Joe at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 19:07:03
|
|
|
|
Now that really was so bad. I have tapes and CD's of their music somewhere. As I didn't attend many programmes people would give me recordings as gifts on their return. Terrible but the CD's were so overpriced at programmes when I did go myself. I have a tape where Charanand sings Downpour of the Holy Name. I think it was meant to be an added attraction but he sounded like he was choking to me. It was enough to make you pray for a downpour to drown under. I didn't think Kim Fields was a great singer either but I welcomed her efforts because it meant the other guys were not singing. Terrible stuff really but I wonder how much money they made.
Modified by MarkT at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 20:06:41
|
|
|
|
I liked One Foundation and some of their stuff really moved me, especially 'Focus'. Such profound lyrics too:Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji
Always remember his every word is holy Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji
Always remember his every word is holy In your heart cherish the feet of Satguru
Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru In your heart cherish the form of Satguru
Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru No one should remain in illusion's misery
Without Satguru no one is ever set free No one should remain in illusion's misery
Without Satguru no one is ever set free Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji
Always remember his every word is holy
To our souls he's the perfect destination
He removes the false and grants true devotion To our souls he's the perfect destination
He removes the false and grants true devotion
Satguru ends the sufferings of birth and death
Endless his glory, infinite his praises Satguru ends the sufferings of birth and death
Endless his glory, infinite his praises Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji
Always remember his every word is holy Truth is revealed only be satguru's grace
The soul becomes intoxicated by his grace
Truth is revealed only be satguru's grace
The soul becomes intoxicated by his grace
His blessings unfold the lotus of the heart
Light appears within and darkness departs
His blessings unfold the lotus of the heart
Light appears within and darkness departs Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji
Always remember his every word is holy Satguru is the creator the lord of destiny
He is the supreme power and will always be
Satguru is the creator the lord of destiny
He is the supreme power and will always be
Nanak has been given this revelation
Without Satguru no one attains liberation Nanak has been given this revelation
Without Satguru no one attains liberation Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji
Always remember his every word is holy Focus on the form of Guru Maharaj Ji
Always remember his every word is holy In your heart cherish the form of Satguru
Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru
Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru
Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru
Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru
Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru
Always pranam to the supreme power the Satguru
..... (to fade)
|
|
|
|
I'm not so sure Sharon Osborne would agree with you though, although Ozzie might. Well I agree JHB, the lyrics are certainly "profound", especially for a mere motivational speaker. Now that is impressive. I certainly enjoyed the sing songs at satsang evenings. Or was it the break from the satsang I enoyed and was confused? One of my favourites was: The Lord of the Universe has come to us this day The Lord of the Universe has come to us this day And he's come to show us light And he's come to show us love And he's come to show us the way Back to our father
Open up your heart to the universe of love And he will fill you up Open up your heart to the universe of love And he will fill you up A real stomper that was.
Modified by MarkT at Wed, Dec 21, 2005, 06:10:40
|
|
|
|
I remember the band playing LOTU at the Palace of Peace in 1974 while we waiting for Maharaji and his new bride. The hall was crammed full, and being in the ashram I was sitting fairly near the front. I had had Knowledge 6 months but had not yet seen Maharaji. Other premies had told me tales of the wonder of darshan so my mental state was already expectant to say the least. The music got more and more frenetic with that stomper of a song until that moment when he walked on stage, I looked at him, and thought "He's really quite small".
John.
|
|
|
|
....at the PoP for that event in 1974 (June? July? ).I have an idea that I stayed the night in a sleeping bag at the PoP and had breakfast at that cafe upstairs (?) Probably swept the foyer as well.I was always sweeping that foyer.
|
|
|
|
It served the best apple juice I have ever tasted. That's my only memory. Did you ever sit on the upper side wings of the balcony? I had on a previous occasion and they looked very fragile especially when the singing began. You have my deepest sympathy for having to sleep at the PoP. I didn't even have a sleeping bag and it was difficult to just lie down and sleep. So cold. Someone pulled out one of those industrial burners that shoot flames 3 feet in the air and eventually that took the chill off the place. That was a later month in the year when the 1978 Wembley event was held I think.
Modified by MarkT at Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 18:34:33
|
|
|
|
Well, not that well to be honest. I was sat in the front row of the upper balcony in the centre so had a perfect view of the stage. I can't remember much else except it was packed and hot. My main concern was whether the balcony would collapse as it never seemed very safe to me. The portraits of "previous perfect masters" that lined the walls didn't impress me and I often wondered if any of them had lived at the same time so disproving the claims. The non premie girl that was with me wasn't impressed either. In fact the next time he came to the UK, she fell asleep at the programme. I slept on the hard floor of the PoP a couple of times after that during the later Wembley events. Cold it was too. Another song I liked was the one that started, "You are not your body, you are not your mind". I can't remember the rest of the lyrics except the chorus which would erupt into, "We love you Guru Maharaji, we love you Guru Maharaji, we love you Guru Maharaji-eeee-eeeeeeeeeee". Yes, the chorus of that one was a stomper too. I can see that you're a fan JHB, so have collected all my old One Foundation tapes and CD's from the attic. They are wrapped and awaiting to be posted to you for Christmas. All we need to agree on is the price but I must remind you that they are collectable items and of historical interest, so they will not come cheap. Somehow I just can't see you grooving along to Spread this Knowledge.
Modified by MarkT at Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 12:29:41
|
|
|
|
Somehow I just can't see you grooving along to Spread this Knowledge.
Mark,
I get special mention on EV's website for my devotion to spreading this knowledge to every land!
Actually that was another of my favourites.
John who could never describe the consciousness that's keeping me alive
|
|
|
|
Yes spreading the knowledge of EPO is perhaps worthy of a revised set of lyrics I have a later version of the song and was dissappointed at the time to see that the words had been altered. He was no longer Lord of the Universe by then but simply The Master. As a final offer, I have a Kim O'Leary CD someone gave me as a gift after they had attended an event. It's hardly been played. Only the first track to be honest, after which I turned it off and never played it again. They tell me it's good. I'll throw that in for free. My final offer.
Modified by MarkT at Thu, Dec 22, 2005, 18:39:29
|
|
|
|
What a complete f****ing idiot! There are no words to describe my master's folly If you took all the seas of the world And turned them to ink And took all the seeds in the world and turned them into sesame snaps And took all the empty cans in the world and recycled them You could never, ever explain how ignorant he is
|
|
|
|
Just laughed out loud for the first time this week...
Modified by Nigel at Sun, Dec 18, 2005, 15:30:31
|
|
|
|
"Q: Maharaj Ji, does it make a difference if a person eats meat or not ? Does it affect their Meditation.
Guru Maharaj Ji: I know one thing - 'what you eat, so you become'. I say from experience. I'll tell you one thing, since it's not meant for human beings to eat meat and there's a very logical explanation - may be you even know it.
You know, it's like people or the beings that are supposed to eat meat, like cats, lions or animals like that, they always lick water. They don't, they don't suck water. They always lick it. They take their tongue out like that. You have seen how a cat drinks water and how a dog drinks it.
But beings that suck water don't eat meat. And that's the way it's supposed to be. And man sucks water - does not lick water, since he is not supposed to eat meat. And God has provided him and made him the king of all nature - not to kill other beings, but to...
He has given all the fruits in the world, anything he wants, a big head up here ….. so he has just to utilize everything. And try to understand the beauty and to grasp the beauty of the fruits God has given us.
Because I'll tell you, it's really healthy too. Body can just really accept it. And that's the way it is. Yes ?
Q: Why wouldn't you say that when you pick a plant killing the plant too ? I mean............
Guru Maharaj Ji: Well, because that's, that's the thing; that little killing is meant to be for you. And that's O.K.
Q: A plant still has consciousness.
Guru Maharaj Ji: A plant has consciousness, but where is the consciousness?
Q: I don't know.
Guru Maharaj Ji: See, this is the thing. Where is the consciousness?
Someone: The root.
Guru Maharaj Ji: The root is the consciousness, but where does the consciousness actually lie ? Because root, if you take root itself, it's in a seed. You see, there is a little explanation to that. If you are eating meat, you are eating out of a being, right ? Like supposedly, some people eat cow, right? Cow comes from life, a mother. Right ? And that also come from a life, and it's a life to a life to a life circle. But a plant does not come from a life. It comes from dead, from a seed which is dead. It doesn't need any nutrition. It's a dead seed. When you plant it, and that's when it becomes (alive), for it to grow, and to give you fruits.
Q: What if you eat an animal that comes from a seed? I mean, an animal.........
Guru Maharaj Ji: well, I wouldn't object to.........
Q: You could call an egg a seed. A chicken comes from an egg; an egg is a seed. Isn't it? Is an egg alive? The one you buy in a store?
Guru Maharaj Ji: No. The egg is killed already. Then... see, it's like, it's not like a seed. Still it isn't like a seed. Because seed is inert, dead. If you put an egg, it'll rot. Because it has a life, and it has a period of life.
You see, everything has come from man's own conception. Because somebody… If I put a man into a cell, the day he is born from, he will never know whether a plant has a consciousness or not. It's man's own conception of it. And so far it all seems again into a conception, into a conception, multiplied by it. It all seems that these fruits are given to a human being to eat them. A man would not be able to live on meat alone. He'll have to still come to nature and ask for its fruits. But a man can live on fruits."
I think Prem Rawat should stick to speaking about his watch collection or something. The way he speaks about evolution and vegetarianism shows he never made it out of school properly. I guess one could excuse a boy of 13 making silly remarks on vegetarianism, but really a 'grown' man of 47 (or as one of his recent puff releases said 'forty something') making such inane remarks on evolution is just a recipe for pure mockery. T
Related link: The LOTU on diet and other profundities.
Modified by T at Sun, Dec 18, 2005, 16:47:27
|
|
|
|
I showed this very same Q & A to my neither-premie-or-ex-premie Darwinian pal (link above) in the pub. His reply: 'If you are what you eat, then Guru Maharaj Ji subsists on a diet of fruitcake, nuts and crackers...'
|
|
|
|
"Beings that suck water"...?
"Beings that lick water"...?
And this sucking and licking of water determines which organisms eat meat and which don't? Good grief.
"The plant has consciousness..in its root"...?
and my personal favorite as the biggest single piece of crap I've ever seen written:
"But a plant does not come from a life. It
comes from dead, from a seed which is dead. It doesn't need any
nutrition. It's a dead seed. When you plant it, and that's when it
becomes (alive), for it to grow, and to give you fruits."
And I'll just bet that "live plant coming from dead" is by the grace of gooroo mawhawraw gee, aint it?
Q:Is he drunk, stoned or just amazingly stupid?
A: Yes
|
|
|
|
Well PS, a good question you raise which I will leave hanging there unanswered. However what is worth also pondering is Rawat's extreme fastidiousness when it comes to his what he currently eats. Here for example is an insight into this aspect of his nature: The details of Maharaji's 'campsite' are kept from premies: 'they wouldn't understand', according to a senior aide. His barbeque area, according to one of the few premies to have seen it, is 'like a command centre at NASA', with electronically controlled grills which rise hydraulically. The meat for Maharaji's barbeque comes from a calf chosen by premies as 'the one with the nicest nature' of the herd, and is massaged before being slaughtered, to ensure maximum tenderness. The wood for the barbecue is stacked, with excruciating neatness, over several hours - including a heart-shaped hollow in the middle of the pile. When the master's arrival is imminent, the coals on his campfire are allowed to burn low, and his gigantic stereo speakers are brought outside. (When he winds up the volume, Maharaji's music can be heard kilometres away on the far side of the property.) Premies are sent away, and the sheets on the master's bed - handmade in South America - are turned down.
T
Related link: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/macgregor5.htm
|
|
|
|
What a friggin' hypocrite. Not that he eats meat. Who cares. Just everything about him. He requires vows of his devotees while his own are meaningless, for starters. His drinking, smoking, infidelities.....how did he so brainwash premies in the first place that now nothing can be said about him that they will believe? Reading stuff from the "old days".....it is as idiotic and meaningless as the crap he says today. There never was any wisdom in what he says. So, how did he do it? If he were somone who had something to say at one point and he'd just slipped away into senility, it would make some sense. But he's always sounded like an idiotic, rambling drunk. So, how did he do it?
|
|
|
|
There was an old saying that I read during my `conditioning` pre Maharaji and K. It went like this... "The master appears when the disciple is ready". So, how did he do it you might ask? He did it because we, the suckers, encouraged him to do it. Yup, we gotta take some personal responsibility. However, some woke up... some have not.
Modified by Milarepa at Mon, Dec 19, 2005, 16:46:05
|
|
|
|
Every victim of a con must look at themselves and say that they have only themselves to blame but that implies an equality in the relationship of conman and victim that is not really there. Most of the people that came to knowledge that I knew were decent, open, honest and unselfish people that not only wanted to find peace in their life but also in the world. Naive maybe, but sincere. I find it hard to see maharaji as an open, honest, unselfish and sincere person that also wanted to achieve such noble aims.
Modified by MarkT at Mon, Dec 19, 2005, 16:44:09
|
|
|
|
I find it hard to see maharaji as an open, honest, unselfish and sincere person that also wanted to achieve such noble aims. I agree. I only say we take some responsibility, certainly not the main responsibility. Fact is though, it takes two to tango. I`ve pondered long and hard on the questions of why I ever got involved in the cult. There are no final answers but my own motivations were certainly dubious to say the least. Although I thought at the time that I was decent, open, honest and unselfish, like the other disciples, maybe I wasn`t. Maybe I just deluded myself about that too because I wanted to grab something special. It was an attractive package once upon a time.
Modified by Milarepa at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 03:41:51
|
|
|
|
I probably am overstating the qualities of those that came to maharaji but nevertheless, over 30 years later, most still are among the most decent people I have known over the years, including current premies (excepting his inner circle). I agree we should examine why we fell for the "dream" and accept our own responsibility to ensure we don't repeat it and learn but in my opinion the weight of evidence falls very largely in the direction of maharaji as the one who deserves most blame and criticism. I mean, Marpa the Translater liked a drink, but at least he was open and honest about it and did donote half his drink to the rest of the congregation to share so was to a certain degree unselfish you could say.
|
|
|
|
I think it's worth remembering that most of us were young, impressionable, and may be vulnerable as well. Late teens and early twenties was the most common age of new premies during the 70's. And late teens is typically quite a soul searching time - as we become 'adults'. Anyone on a spiritual quest was a sitting duck for the various popular cults at that time. I know that applies to me. We had only just 'grown up'. We were still really just kids!!I don't think I would have fallen for it today, 30 years later, with all the experience of life that I have now, but didn't have back then.
|
|
|
|
I know for myself I would have been out of there ages before if I'd not taken his word for it that the techniques were unique to him, never even occurred to me once he could be lying.
No the techniques worked for me, so he must be something special even if I never did get the god in a bod thing though I waited patiently for the revelation.
And that level of naivete is a form of arrogance in itself I think, that somehow being that open on the cosmic level you'll be protected etc etc blah de blah,
|
|
|
|
I, for one, certainly fit all those categories back then... including lazy and naive. Strange thing is though, how persistent the longing is for a trancendent inner state. Guess that`s a mark of my own deep conditioning.... not all of which was due to the RatBoy alone.... or maybe its a `god gene`! Definitely the best thing to come out of it all was the good people I met on the way.
Modified by Milarepa at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 04:01:11
|
|
|
|
Some commentors have described Nazi Germany as an entire nation in the grip of a cult. We're witnessing Islamic youth being sucked into Bin Laden's cult. The internet has proved the antidote to figures like M and Sai Baba. However, the next generation of big-scale con tricksters will use the internet. The con game is always shifting. The 60s generation would never have been fooled by a political cult, because Nazism was too recent--if anything, the 60s generation was exemplary in the way it stood for good political values--but we were suckers for a religious cult. So...what's coming next? Neville B
|
|
|
|
Maybe the next big cult thing won't be so recognisable. Does it have to have a charismatic leader? Maybe there might be several leaders, and the cult a little more diffuse - how about rampant consumersim? Might that qualify? Football? The Olympics. Nationalism...
|
|
|
|
Might be more than conditioning or a gene, added extras on top of those.
Certainly persinger's research shows some people are more open to his god spot machine than others. Not surprisingly Richard Dawkins was one of those it didn't work for.
I do wonder about myself sometimes about how much my insecurity about this world which was rife in our family caused it's own ripples. I say this because I wonder if there isn't a mental health issue involved here. I wonder because I'm meeting people in the lasst ten years who also have access to those spiritual states even when they aren't recognizably spiritual, have no belief system, in some cases not even very nice people, but they do have recognizable mental health issues.
I do wonder if it's not just a chemical issue around the brain, since it seems to have nothing to do with living a spiritual life, trying to be humble etc, which have always needed to be there in the equation for the 'experiences' to kick in for me. And that goes back before knowledge, to acid where it was a big lesson I went through on that one. But that obviously isn't a universal rule.
|
|
|
|
I do wonder if it's not just a chemical issue around the brain, Quite right Hamzen, come to think of it, I had the lot back then including massive family issues, mental health issues and chemical issues. Jeez, what a state I was!!! It all culminated in a profound event some months after I`d been initiated in 74. I came back from satsang one evening at the ashram in Newcastle to the house where I was living with some friends. They passed me a spliff. Sitting in lotus position I closed my eyes and suddenly was transported, or that`s how it seemed, into an all knowing state of timeless bliss. Pure energy, pure light, ecstatic emptiness. Visions flooded my mind in waves. My life seemed to flash before me in a glorious eternal moment. My body melted and became one with the entire universe. At least that`s how it seemed. GM featured along with everybody else so I interpreted this as a spiritual revelation. Doctors would probably call it a temporal lobe siezure or some other such scientific reductive term. I`d had other similar `visions` on previous psychadelic trips, so I took this as being another sign that I was on the right path. This one experience may have been the single most important event that persuaded a young man whose brain was still developing to keep practicing K despite the doubts he had about the behaviour of the `master` and his devotees for the next 4 years or so, and then to go on to pursue other spiritual paths to this day. I still have a deep conviction in a reality far more profound than the surface appearance and I still like to sit in the emptiness... but the visions have long since evaporated. Thank god! So what is all this subjective `spiritual` experience about ? The mental and the physical obviously have a connection, but is it all about brain chemistry and do the differences in cultural trappings and environment simply give rise to different interpretations of the same psycho/physical events? Answers on a postcard pleeze to....
Modified by Milarepa at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 13:29:03
|
|
|
|
I can't remember the source but a team of British (I think) neurologists have identified the chemical associated with "romantic love" that is released into the brain. Apparantly, after about a year the particular gland no longer releases that chemical. So "romantic love" is simply a chemical experience in the brain that lasts for 12 months. Don't know about "spiritual love", perhaps it is a different chemical.
|
|
|
|
Maybe that was the point of an annual dose of darshan, to overload the glands and keep the lurv flowing. Actually, although not spiritualistic (whatever that means) myself I do have great respect for the Tibetan traditions. Got any chang?
|
|
|
|
Thanks for the advice Mark. I must have done about 4 or 5 darshans during my involvement and I guess in the end it truly confirmed to me that the kid`s not go(o)d. The shear dehumanising effect of the ritual always made me feel like shit, and that just couldn`t have been right, could it? I`ve since met a few Tibetan Lamas who do deserve some respect and have taught me what I needed to know about meditation.... but not about drinking chang.
Modified by Milarepa at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 17:50:52
|
|
|
|
I feel the same as you in regard of darshan and on my last trip past the feet refused to pranam and after a slight pause just walked straight on. Never been there since. I have met several Tibetans myself including the Gyalwa Rinpoche and the previous Karmapa from whom I received refuge. That was a long time ago but they are truly sincere and lovely people that are worthy of the fullest respect. Now you dont expect them to share their chang do you? Even Marpa always kept half for himself.
Modified by MarkT at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 18:19:58
|
|
|
|
That is a very relevant point and the age range I socialised with at the time was around 14-21. What was fortuitous for maharaji was that a sub culture had already arisen that enjoyed its own press with the hippie publications International Times, Friendz and OZ all widely available at high street newsagents. It also had a well established underground music scene and of course its own chemicals such as ganja and LSD rather than depending on alcohol usage which was mainly frowned upon. Its own dialect was in use and a set of values that challenged conventional society. Artistic expression was appreciated as a wide variety of styles became incorporated into the new psyhedelic style including surrealist, celtic and native american influences. Previous youth groups such as the teddy boys, mods, rockers and skinheads had been fairly violent but the hippies embraced a concept of peace and love. The garden of delight was already in place and in fact many had sought answers to the questions raised by their psychedelic experiences by travelling the "hippie trail" from the UK to India. With a modest sum of money by western standards a hippie from London could live the life of a prince in India for over a year. Many experienced "culture shock" upon their return to the west, so settled had they become into Indian life. The first westerners maharaji made contact with most likely came from such people and once he had made the hop to Britain, a whole new market was opened up. Strange how he only appealed to young hippie westerners rather than the traditional Indian population that had settled in the UK. One of the problems may have been for these new premies was that they had rebelled against the older generation and so were vulnerable. If their parents had not understood their hippie lifestyle up till that point, how could they be expected to understand this "messiah" from the east. Such isolation from existing mainstream society simply provided easy pickings for any guru. It spread like wildfire but could the same thing happen again or was maharaji the last of his kind. We should not be too hard on ourselves for being taken for a ride and once you are on board it becomes harder and harder to jump ship.
Modified by MarkT at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 14:26:06
|
|
|
|
According to Mike Finch's account, when Mata Ji (not Prem) sent Gurucharnanand to England in 1969 it was at the invitation of the Indian community in East London, and the intention was that he would propagate to the Indian community. It was the hippie premies returning from India that heard he was in London and got him propagating to westerners.
John.
Related link: How Rawat started in the west
|
|
|
|
I remember Saph, a "Jesus" type guy that later changed to having a tash like an old WW2 RAF pilot and Milky Cole with the fair curly hair. Thanks for that JHB, Charanands arrival in 1969 was earlier than I realised. Perhaps I have been too critical and cynical then in regard of maharaji's reason for comming to the west but in regard of his descision to stay I still think materialism attracted him. It remains true though that a sub culture of young people existed that was wide open to being manipulated. In regard of the traditional Indians within the UK they became more involved with the Hare Krishna movement that rather than remaining separtist is accepted as part of the traditional movement now. I think their place near Watford (?) has in fact become a place of pilgimage for many UK Indians. It is a long way to trees and bees from those early beginnings.
Modified by MarkT at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 18:48:01
|
|
|
|
Hi Milarepa! I agree--though I can only speak for myself in saying I was ready and willing to be LED! Of course, I understood it to be a good thing, back then, and Rawat will always have to be responsible for the various ways he dupes people for his own gain--BUT...I wanted something or someone to tell me how to make my life beautiful, meaningful, worshipful, and so on. It helps me to move on, in accepting responsibility for my part. Cheers, Shelagh
|
|
|
|
"Yes like the bees and the trees got together and decided to "choose" to cooperate with each other."
Well, it would have had to have been the trees' roots because that's where the consciousness is. Except, no, wait, the "root itself is in a seed". But, wait, "the seed is dead". So the root is dead? So there is no consciousness after all? Sounds like the trees are screwed. I guess we can eat them. I don't know if bees have consciousness. They aren't cows. Maybe we can eat the bees, too. Take a lot of them for a dinner. Hard to catch them, too. Anybody got his cell phone number? I'll give him a call and ask for clarification. I know he's big..........oh, I meant on clarity.
|
|
|
|
"You look at trees. Once upon a time, the great-great
granddaddies of the trees you see were all in the ocean. They made a step to
come onto land. And when they did, they had problems because they could not
continue their species. In water, they could just let off seeds, and the seeds
would float along, and everything was great. On land, it didn’t work like that.
They had to form partnerships. They had to devise strategies that would work. Some came up with pollen, a powdery substance similar to what was used
in the ocean. Others wanted to be more selective, and they formed a partnership
with bees. Others didn’t have access to bees, so they formed a partnership with
birds. And not only that, they formed partnerships with particular types of
birds. There’s a flower that only works with a hummingbird that has a really
long beak that can reach the nectar."
I remember a number of occasions where the Rat advised those on his personal
staff to write to him as if we were speaking to a fourth grader. Seemingly, he likes to explain things to others that way too. Funny, I thought
he made it to the ninth grade!
Unbelievable, that I was so taken in by such a ridiculous man.
|
|
|
