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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRo2yoQKU6Ahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyoOu4L-Wlk I dont know if I got the url right. Its calld UNA (whatever that means, but still UN has got something to do with it.)
Regardless, the speach is posetive, isn't it?
Related link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRo2yoQKU6A
Modified by jonas at Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 06:49:31
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Jonas, I think you will discover that Rawatt hired the hall at a UN building. He was not addressing the UN.Have you read the information on this site? Here is an overview of ex-premies grievances against Rawatt.(linkj below)
Related link: Objections
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http://tprf.org/Prem_Rawat_press_releases/Prem_Rawat_addresses_UN_event.htmSo everything is a lie? Yes I have read most of the ex-premies site, and I have discussed it with
the two persons who have gotten me on this trail.
The ofcourse say that everything on ex-premie.org is lies form people
who have turned on their master. Now I can't know what is the truth here, but at the time I have only interacted with
two persons/premies, and their honsety I do trust. They to can be misinformd ofcourse. This is the first time I've actually interacting with someone else than devotees. Finding pure critical text on the internett is not hard, but its not hard
to find critical text on anything on the internett. That is why i wanted to partisipate in this forum. To interact with non premies,
not just copy and paste from websites. (sorry for bad english. out of practice)
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Jonas, Your English is impressive. Ex-premie.org is a compliation of facts, based on verifiable, first-hand experience. It is not based on mere opinion. There are NO lies. The persons/premies that you are interacting with are the ones who are misinforming you. Ask them to point out any lies specifically. Even just one or two. Mr. Rawat cannot sue ex-premie.org for libel, because the information is truthful and factual. Of course, on this forum, there is an expression of opinion which varies from person to person, but again, the facts presented on ex-premie.org are not lies. Do NOT trust people who are in a cult. They are holding on to an idealised but false belief system. And certainly, never ever trust a guru, especially one who says he is not a guru! As for a "source" of happiness, we all must live and learn about ourselves. We need not, and cannot, obtain a secret and special Knowledge from somebody else that will show us the way. Good luck!
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Hi Jonas, Firstly congratulations on taking a critical approach, it is something that should save you a lot of wasted time and effort. For pretty full history of Rawat's career see: http://prem-rawat-maharaji.info/ As to scepticism being an ego function - well yes and it's a damn good thing to, cultivate it ! Good luck. Nik
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I have read pretty thoroughly thru prem-rawat-maharaji.info, and
discussed it with two devotees. Their reaction was quite balanced and
they argued quite good against the allogations. And they said "if you have a different path, try it. Prem only wants you to be
happy". I for a time then went quite deep into the material on the web both
pro and against PR. And for a while I didn't think much about it. But I still participaited in forum discussions, and quite often the two premies
and i had the same wiew on things. So naturally we enjoyed discussing with other people. They never pushed PR videos on me, but rather in discussions some
of the things they dicussed had a link to M videos.
I don't know why but one day i ordered "introduction to the keys" DVD (free),
and in that DVD (or any of the later material PR has made) PR emphesizes that he
is not a guru, should not be followed and that it is only oneself who will take this journey.
the two premies also have never said anything that resemblels the allogations against PR on prem-rawat-maharaji.info/ or ex-premie.org.,
So why am I here? Well I have never actually talkt to an ex-premie, or dicussed PR with anyone but premies. And until a week ago I have only seen small videoclips
of PR which I feel have a good message. A week ago I found the clips from the 70's, where PR is being kissed on his feet, intros with "lord of the universe"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDVgFe8V3gU
and PR saying "a devotee must follow his master",
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzQceABA6V8 That looked kind of spooky. But why does his message today seem good? And not like a cult at all?
If I do continue with the key stuff, will thins change? Will I one day end up on a
ex-premie site, telling of satsang(??? what is satsang anyway) ashrams(???) and lots
of other stuff i today consider NOT ME? Or am I beeing triked by my ego,
the prosecutor in me, to not acknowlage the truth that lies within me? Yet, I know if I discuss this with the premies they will have answers to every question I have, and I don't like it when someone supposedly has all the answers and no questions themselvs....
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As with any product or service you buy, your good sense would tell you to read consumer reports. There are far more people who no longer follow Rawat than there are people that remain his students. If premies were so sure of their "product," in this case, Maharaji and Knowledge, then they would recommend you find out as much as you can about it by doing your own research. No good salesperson will tell you not to look into their product. Why? Because they are confident in their product, unlike con-men, who do have a lot to hide. Telling you not to talk to ex-premies is a big red flag, a warning that should signal you to the fact that they have something to hide. Ex-premies don't hide behind anything. That's why premies and Rawat hate and fear us so much: we tell the truth, answer questions, and encourage open discussion.
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 09:12:57
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you wrote
we tell the truth, answer questions, and encourage open discussion.Thats why i decided to register at this forum...
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I think that shallow involvement nowadays while retaining some skepticicm to Maharaji is likely harmless. I was a follower of another guru and I think that shallow involvement with my former guru is likely harmless too, except if u happen to get sexually abused by him.
Andries
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There must be something better to do with your time than get into shallow involvement with a guru! Go fishing maybe...
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>while retaining some skepticicm to Maharaji< Skepticism would require not according him a title he has no claim to and which he instructed his followers that was what he was to be known as. His name is Rawat and he's a fraud. >I think that shallow involvement nowadays while retaining some skepticicm to Maharaji is likely harmless.< Walking through sewage may not do you any harm if you are wearing rubber boots - but the stink will probably linger for longer than you'd like. Nik
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At the very, very minimum, involvement with Rawat means buying into his anti-mind bullshit. Of course that's harmful. It also means endorsing a fraud artist which empowers him to defraud others more effectively by invoking your endorsement! That's harmful to others. I would agree with you that the amount one suffers by involvement with Rawat is generally a function of how deep the involvement. But that's the way it is with any poison. Your comments about Sai Baba, by the way, are kind of funny if you're intending to be funny. Bizarre if not.
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Andries, How shallow is shallow? Listening to all the 70+ hours of mind-controlling keys and making Rawat's promises? Since when is being sexually abused the hallmark of being harmed in a cult? Sexual abuse is a whole other ballpark of abuse on top of what a cult does to someone. How little you've learned, Andries. I'm surprised.
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to be able to stick your foot in your mouth so often.
I think the main problem with your statement is that it is pretty much meaningless and as a result misleading. Of course involvement or belief in just about anything is harmless in direct proportion to its shallowness, probably including being a Nazi or a racist for that matter.
But as Cynthia points out, it depends on what you mean by a shallow and skeptical involvement. I suppose if you ignored everything Rawat said, did meditation just to chill out before bed and went to Satsang just to try and pick up girls, your experience might be fairly harmless.
I contend that this kind of entry into the cult was always possible and indeed much easier in early times than it is now though. There were eras when it was quite easy to get knowledge without investing much time. Having to watch 50 hours of videos is hardly what I would call shallow though. And that from someone who has watched all 144 episodes of Buffy at least twice. Actually a sense of great enlightenment grows in me as I contemplate that right now.
And that would have been a lovely way to end this post, but I would like to add that, based on his posts here, I think that Jonas' involvement was already more than harmless, though it will hopefully be a good learning experience for him. That he had already begun to hide his interest from his wife, indicates his level of indoctrination I believe.
Modified by aunt bea at Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 18:01:42
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Okay so you like Charlies Angels and you like Buffy, seems to me Xena's the girl for you.
She can sucker punch the devil, get crucified, conduct a relationship and sing a song all at the same time.
I rather suspect that those folks who were only in it for the high and the social aspects are the same ones who are still unaware of how much they picked up just by taking part.
Occasionally I meet someone who hasn't seen the guru in years or another premie, yet can go all funny at the thought of 'Maharaji' and 'Knowledge'.
And they do look happier as the notion forms that it was Rawat that failed them not the other way round.
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Rawat says he is not a guru because he wants to present an acceptable public image to people who do not trust gurus. But look at what he is doing in India right at this moment: http://innerlink.typepad.com/ He is telling people that he has the secret to the perfect joy within. He says that if you can find it on your own, then fine, but if not, then come to him, become his student, receive his "gift" of meditation techniques, and then devote yourself to his recommended way of life for the rest of your life. And then, if you practice hard enough, and look deep enough within yourself, you will find your true God within you. What exactly do you think other gurus are doing in the world today? They are doing exactly the same thing! They are going around telling people that they have the secret to the perfect joy within, and if you follow them, you too can have the perfect joy. That's what all gurus do. How is it that Prem Rawat is not a guru if he is doing exactly what all gurus do? And what are all those people in the audience doing? They are worshipping their guru, hoping for his blessing. Rawat allows them to wait all day in a line, file by and kiss his feet, and give him money. He allows them to serve him and provide him with his every need and desire. How is that not being a guru?
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You say... "But why does his message today seem good? And not like a cult at all? If I do continue with the key stuff, will thins change? Will I one day end up on a ex-premie site, telling of satsang(??? what is satsang anyway) ashrams(???) and lots of other stuff i today consider NOT ME? Or am I beeing triked by my ego, the prosecutor in me, to not acknowlage the truth that lies within me?" Why would you even think about being "tricked" by your ego unless someone had put that idea into your head. Your "ego" is who you are, your sense of self. Ego is good. A healthy ego is a healthy mind. People with an unhealthy ego are usually suffering from some sort of mental illness. Rawat corrupts the use of the word ego because he wants you to hand over your mind to him, so he can control it. This corruption of the word "ego" is a real mind-control technique. You are already starting to use the cult buzz words. The so-called "prosecutor" within you (discrimination) is doing what any good prosecutor would do - protecting you from evil! What do you think the job of a prosecutor is? To bring the criminal to justice. Questioning and doubting are only bad to the person who has something to hide - that's why premies don't want you to ask questions or doubt what he says. As for the truth that lies within -- it has nothing to do with Rawat. And it is disgusting that he makes such a claim. You may never talk about satsang or ashrams because you are starting at a different time in rawat's career, but you have already started repeating what you hear, and it is the beginning of cult brainwashing. Be very careful... once you have lost years of your life, you can never get them back again.
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Jonas, Those youtube videos have been put up by an ex premie - they are part of a whole raft of historical material that Rawat and his followers have tried hide from public view. While the material from the past is indeed, spooky, often disgusting and almost always deeply worrying, it is true that the whole presentation is now very different - but it is still a confidence trick based around a simple business model. The business model is that used by mobile phone networks - they provide you with a free handset - and you sign up for a monthly contract. In Rawat's case the handset is the 'Knowledge' - remember how much you are told that it's free ? The premies don't tell you about the 'contract' - you will only find out about that after you've put the effort in to get the 'handset'. Yes, in theory you can get the meditation techniques and walk away - but there's the 'con'. You've had to wait months - you haven't had to put up any cash - but you have had to invest hours upon hour listening to Rawat's drivel - having put all that effort in you (will) want to make that meditation work. And then you find out the only way to make it a sure fire thing is to 'stay in touch' - you've got to be part of the network. You've got to keep listening to Rawat - and if you are really serious you need to see him live. And if you want to see him live you've got 'register' for events - and as you've already been through the Keys you'll have an account number, so then you'll have to upgrade that with a Smart card. And then you'll be asked (and asked and asked and asked) for donations - how about a monthly bank transfer ? (just like your phone network contract). You see Rawat doesn't come cheap - he gives less than 40 one hour long talks a year - but he has to travel and his private jet and hotel bills cost over US$4 million a year so you - having been given the great gift of Knowledge will have to pay to keep being inspired by this teacher who isn't a teacher, who teaches something that has nothing to do with religion, despite his US organisation being registered as a church. Jonas - if you are interested in the background to the meditation that Rawat claims is uniquely his to teach - there's a thread that I started here: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/12123.html Not unique, and probably an unhealthy practice without the support and learning that historically would normally go with the practice of yoga. Nik
Modified by Nik at Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 16:13:51
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Jonas I would be very careful and critical every step of the way in your journey to find inner peace. It is true that faith is important in most religions, but Rawat's path is one of lies and deceit, so faith will only lead you to surrender your own good sense to others who have ulterior motives. If Rawat is not God (which it appears he does not claim to be these days) then he does not deserve your blind faith in him and is deserving of your questions and doubt and suspicion and critical analysis. He has never spoken "to" the U.N. - he has rented a room from their conference facilities - this is just one of the cult's many little deceits about him - they allow people to believe something that is patently untrue in order to make him appear more legitimate. I was a follower of Rawat for many years and even worked for him instructing other people in the "Knowledge" that he claims is his alone. The "keys" are a relatively new invention, designed to make sure that you don't ask embarrassing questions or learn about his deceit from others. Before the "keys", there were people who showed the techniques and there have been several of them posting on this forum from time to time. Those of us who put a high value on moral honesty and integrity finally left the cult because we could no longer maintain the illusions in our own minds about this charlatan. We have come to loathe what Rawat does. There are still older followers who cannot seem to break away from his mental hold on them, although they probably don't believe all of his lies any more. When I first attended a meeting (in 1973), I questioned Rawat and his practices, and I was told that he was a "perfect mirror" - therefore any faults I saw in him were really in me. This was a wonderful way for Him to eliminate all criticism of himself, because it deflected everything back to the person who saw the fault! If I thought he had ego, then I was the one with ego. If I complained about how he spent his money, then I was the one who was obsessed with money. It was never his fault or his responsibility. Do you want to follow a person who has never in his life accepted any personal responsibility for anything he has ever done wrong? Just read the many journeys of people who have tried to follow him in all sincerity and honesty, only to discover that his "empire" is rotten to the core, and that his claims to divinity (in the early days) were all simply self-aggrandizements. He is a little nothing who wanted to be god. If you want to meditate - the techniques are freely available online and in many books. They consist of squeezing the eyes, plugging up the ears, folding the tongue over, and concentrating on breathing. Breath has been used as a meditation technique in many religions including Buddhism, Hinduism, Yoga and even Christianity - it is nothing new and Rawat does not own your breath and you do not need to offer him allegiance or gratitude for being able to breathe! You may thank God, if you are a believer, but the way to offer thanks, in my opinion, is to live a good life, doing no harm to others. I suggest you read the entire ex-premie.org site and ask many questions before you allow the brainwashing techniques of the "keys" videos to remove all of your own judgment and free will. Those of us who post here are referred to as a "hate group" because we hate what he has done in the past to people's minds and hearts, and what he continues to do today. I don't hate him, I hate his mission - to turn honest seekers of truth into mindless robots for the satisfaction of his own needs and desires. As they say in America "buyer beware". And good luck on your journey of life!
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Thank you for replying. I realise that many people has been hurt somehow by Rawat, and espesially followers from the 70's. What I don't understand is how a man who preaches about peace, joy and love, can actually hurt. How did he do it?
And are there any deflectors in recent years? When it comes to blind faith and belifs I consider myself strong willed and would never "follow" Rawat. This to I have discussed with two premies, and they agree. (why did they agree?)
Why I ordered the first key, was to hear PR message. To be frankly honest i never had any expectations to this knowledge stuff, but got intrigued with parts on "the peace comes within". Did he really say he was God before? He shure doesn't say that today.
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Hi JonasFirst, congratulations on wanting to ask questions about Rawat and his followers. As others have written in this thread, any sane and intelligent person will question something which appears too good to be true. At least they will want to get different viewpoints, read what others have written about it, and then come to some judgement and make their own mind up whether to follow it or not. The fact that you are prepared to ask questions does, I am afraid, disqualify you! Whether you will be allowed to get Knowledge or not, the fact that you will not accept what people say without having them support what they say, and give reasons for saying what they say, means that you will make a lousy follower of Rawat. You ask: And are there any deflectors in recent years? Yes, I am. I was a fully paid-up follower until 2001, having followed Maharaji, and given everything to him, for 30 years. I have written some articles about my attempts to deconstruct my thirty years as a devotee on my website (link below). Good luck with your search, wherever it may lead. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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To be frankly honest i never had any expectations to this knowledge
stuff, but got intrigued with parts on "the peace comes within".
Yes, that is superficially intriguing, but to anyone who attempts to rise above a worldview based on more than mere hedonism, ultimately a total dead end. I don't have an answer, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that neither does he.
Did he really say he was God before? He shure doesn't say that today.
His present day long time followers are going down a well worn psychological path, or if they aren't long time, they don't know the whole story.
As a Norwegian you might get a flavour of this by having a conversation with someone who never really, despite everything, gave up on Vidkun Quisling, & ask them to talk about what 'Fuhrerprinzip' means to them these days.
I'm sure...............' it wasn't what you think '........ would be the 1st words out of their mouths.
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you wrote:
As a Norwegian you might get a flavour of this by having a conversation with someone who never really, despite everything, gave up on Vidkun Quisling, & ask them to talk about what 'Fuhrerprinzip' means to them these days.I'm sure...............' it wasn't what you think '........ would be the 1st words out of their mouths.
------------- Heh, they exist. I haven't talked to them personally, but they have been rideculed in the media. And they say that the holocoust is a lie. They even have pictures (photoshoped badly) of consentaration camps which look like summercamps. The organization "Vigrid" is not big, but som teenager outcasts they are able to recrut.
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Hello Jonas, Yes I was actively involved up to July 2006. I can't add much to what everyone else has said already. I have no doubt that your premie friends are quite sincere and well meaning....but also that they are self deluded. I would encourage you to try asking a few simple direct personal questions. Have they ever kissed Prem Rawat's feet? Why? Do they keep any pictures of Prem Rawat at home? Could they please honestly share what Prem Rawat means to them personally? What is the furthest they have travelled just to 'be in his physical presence' and hear him speak for an hour or so? How many hours a week do they spend watching or listening to DVDs or CDs of Rawat explaining his message? Why does knowledge of a peace that is truly within require listening to hours of Rawat speaking (even after 30 or more years in many cases)? Prem Rawat is their teacher? How does he teach and how well do they know him personally? What do they think are his good points and what are his bad points? Looking back over Maharaji's 40 year self-declared mission to establish peace in the world how well do they think he has done? What have been his main mistakes if any? If he was really so passionate about spreading 'his message' might he not have sacrificed a little more of his ostentatious wealth and comfort to the cause...maybe just travel 1'st class rather than keep a personal jet and charge the travel expenses to the charity that 'supports his work'? Who else is now well enough versed to be a reliable authority on 'Knowledge' other than Prem Rawat? How many of the people that have ever 'received knowledge' continue to practise (my estimate based on a fair sample of people I have known over > 30 years would be < 5%)? Anyway....far too many questions. I wish you all the best. But when and if you start listening to Key 1 try not to be hypnotised by the face and the voice .....note how he assumes an air of proprietry authority ....All this listening (70 h of it) is the first step to forming the imaginary relationship that is at the root of what you will soon discover is purely a personality cult (The techniques of Key 7 are standard..not significantly different from Buddhist meditation techniques that I have seen on the web) good luck Tim
Modified by tommo at Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 18:57:26
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Great Tim. To someone who hasn't been in the cult, they must seem like a bunch of reasonable and innocuous questions. To someone who has been in the cult, well, they aren't going to be comfortable to answer, and there won't be any encouragement to ask more along the same line.
Jonas, asking these questions of your friends should enlighten you -
And remember the testimony you have seen here, of all these people, many who have been heavily involved for years, some who have known Rawat personally - the biggest enlightenment for us was when we realised we were in a cult.
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Explaining I must go throug the steps first. "a farmer prepars the soil befoure sowing". I have also been advised not to talk to ex-premies, "you don't talk to the enemies of my friend to find information, do you" they said. In a way i understand that. If I knew nothing about GW Bush it would be dumb to ask Bin Laden what kind of person GWB is. "Preparing the soil before sowing," is an analogy that's always been used. Listening to the "keys" is a process of indoctrination to make you believe that Maharaji/Knowledge is the only source of happiness and peace in the world. It's just not true. Listening to the Keys is a process of persuasive coercion or mind control. But, by posting here you probably blew your chances of receiving Knowledge anyway. Elan Vital premies read this forum and keep files on everybody that posts here. That's how paranoid those people are. Since ex-premies have been discussing our involvement with Prem Rawat, he and his current followers have made us their enemies, and even accuse us of being a hate-group. Why? Because it's against the rules to be critical of Rawat and to speak one's mind. People who are critical of him are shunned. Part of the Keys indoctrination you will be subjected to is that Rawat is above all cricitism and that he is perfect. If you're interested in having a master to worship, well this is the cult for you. Jonas, run away as fast as you can from Prem Rawat and premies. It's a destructive personality cult. He's a conman and has no unique wisdom. What Rawat has is no big mystery, and watching the keys is designed to increase your "thirst" by creating a fake-suspense about the meditation and Maharaji. The Knowledge Rawat claims are old yoga meditation techniques that you can learn right now, today, by clicking below. Just make sure when you do the "light" technique that you don't squeeze your eyeballs. All that's needed is a soft touch and just focus on your third eye (the middle of your forehead). I don't recommend these techniques but there's no magic in receiving them from Prem Rawat. That's what premies believe: that Rawat is their Lord. See how easy that was? It may not be objective, but it's the truth. Congratulations, you now have "knowledge." Be well, Cynthia
Related link: Attend a Knowledge Session today
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 08:56:32
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hehehe... Thank you for an honest reply. If I "blew" it by posting here, than they really have shown their tru face.
I must be allowed to ask questions...
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Hi jonas. It is very good that you come here and try to find out more about Rawat. You asked if there are people who have recently left who post here. There are many. One of those who left in the last few years is Mike Finch. Mike helped bring Rawat to the west from India when Rawat was a teenager. He was a devout follower of Rawat's for 30 years, and knew him very well and personally. Mike has a website where he talks about Rawat and his experiences in the cult. You can find it at http://mikefinch.com I suggest you ask the people who are talking to you about Rawat a few direct questions such as: 1. Have you ever spent time any significant time personally with Rawat? Do you know how he treats the people around him? 2. How wealthy is Rawat and where did his money come from? 3. How long have they been involved with Rawat? 4. Why is it necessary to watch the keys when these meditation techniques are available from all sorts of people and organizations who do not demand "gratitude" for having revealed them? Why do you need Rawat at all in order to know something about yourself? 5. Why does he call people who are critical of him a hate group? What is wrong with criticizing him? Will you also be called a hate group member if you criticize Rawat publicly? And ask your friends if they would still be your friends if you publicly criticize Rawat? Would that make them upset? What if you wanted to attend a public meeting with Rawat and speak to him publicly about your criticisms. Ask your friends if they would encourage it and if Rawat's organization would allow it. Good luck and keep digging. Marianne
Modified by Marianne at Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 09:57:54
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Jonas, I just lost a good long post to you. Serves me right for doing this while I should be working. Anyway, that's life in a hate group for you! If it's not one thing, it's another. The universe never lets things go your way because, well, you know, it's the universe. I'm sure Rawat can tell you all about it. Seriously, though, if your two good new friends -- and their friends -- know that you're posting here you will have bend over backwards to prove that none of our poision ever sunk in. Good luck with that. What you might want to do that could be kind of fun, though, is to invite your friends to register as well and ask us all to address the issues together. That way you can gauge for yourself which side has the more compelling perspective. Honestly, Jonas, for those of us who actually lived through years and years of Rawat, there's no contest. He's a very despicable, cowardly fraud without a sense of conscience of personal responsibility. And make no mistake, his followers do indeed think he's divine. Scratch them deep enough and that's how they'll bleed. Or just ask us about our scars.
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Hello, Jonas. I am not an ex-premie, so I have no master to turn away from. My husband is a premie. One year ago, the Rawat cult decided I was an anonymous poster on this forum and called my husband to tell him this. They demanded however, they he not tell me. For two weeks, I was in torment wondering what was wrong with my husband. I posted all of this last year, and if I knew how to link that post here, I would do that. Eventually, but not until after our fifth wedding anniversary was completely ruined, I insisted my husband tell me what was bothering him. He did. I was shocked, furious, hurt.......I can't even describe it. These are not the actions of benevolent people interested only in helping you find your inner peace. They caused inner anguish in two innocent people.
Many premies, including my husband, believe that Rawat is their best friend. Friendship to me seems to include calling a friend up for a chat, exchanging greeting cards, going for a meal or coffee, visiting in each other's home and much, much more. Most of the premies who consider Rawat their best friend have never met him....other than to have kissed his feet. They can't call him up for a chat, letters and cards will most likely go ignored unless they contain money, and he would never sit down and have a meal with them. This does not fit my definition of even a good friend, let alone one's "best friend".
Please be aware also, that if you pursue knowledge, you will be required to make three vows, or promises, to Rawat. Premies hold these vows to be more sacred than anything, including marriage vows. I don't know if you are in a relationship with anyone, but if you are, I suggest talking to them to make sure they don't mind being in second place in your heart and affections.
Modified by Angela at Mon, Apr 02, 2007, 13:58:07
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Thank you, Cynthia. I appreciate that link. When I read that, I still feel furious.
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You can't blame the guru for the actions of his discpiles. [sure you can] I am sure they were just doing their usual "Inspector Clouseau" routines. They've been acting like Keystone Cops since the 70s in England the US (World Peace Corps. "WPC" they were called). Ha! It's just a knuckehead cult
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Jonas, your questioning approach to Rawat, aka, Maharaji is very refreshing - do be cautious and do ask your questions. I was a questioner when I joined in 1981 - they eventually threatened to throw me out if I kept up - Naively, I stopped - if you get faced with such a dilema, take it up and move on. The premies who are recruiting you may well be sinccere - they were recruited themselves once - the mysterious 'peace' is merely the calm relaxed state that comes of meditating - its no better or worse than sunbathing, sleeping or relaxing with a good book, - that Maharaji takes credit for it is where problems arise - he is only showing meditations available elsewhere - the Baghavad Gita has them in - The UN talks - he hires rooms at the UN - that is not addressingthe UN - they rent out halls to anyone paying. His mesage is far from some profound mystical mysterious display of peace - question on, and when the answers don't come, get yourself away. Best wishes, Arthur Chappell
http://www.lulu.com/content/757452 My book on Maharaji - BRAINWASHED! A CULT SURVIVOR'S TALE
Arthur Chappell arthur@chappell7300.freeserve.co.uk
My Space. http://www.myspace.com/56954240
Web site www.arthurchappell.clara.net/
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Good point Arthur: Premies are recruiting Jonas. They don't even know it, could never admit it, but that's exactly what they are doing. Seductive poison.
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guru maharaji speaks of a mirror. that if you want to look yourself in the eyes, you can't gauge your eyes out. you need a mirror, then one can look into ones eyes.I experienced that today. just as he said. and it was a powerful experience. angela, you were my mirror. you see I do have a wife whom I love very much. and today when I read your post I looked myself dead in the eye. it was terrifying. I saw myself starting to argue against her about "ego, inner peace, god(can you believe it I am not even a beliver," and worst of all, I kept it a secret. The first secret I've ever kept, because I believed she was not "ready", that she had to feel the "thirst" first and I was on an individual journey which no one but me should know. why did I feel this thirst? what was it that made me, a strong willed free thinker, want to believe in a magic pill?
I looked back and saw that a year ago when this all started, was when my wife had a miscarage. we've been trying for three years to have a baby, and had several miscarages. the last a year ago. I wanted a magic pill, that's why. angela and
all you posters here I show my gratitude for your sacrifice, for today I really saw (to see past tense, not saw in half, uncertain about spelling) myself, today I feel inner peace, today I doged a bullett. hmm, I wonder, what if I never posted here? *shrudder* I'll stick around. again thank you all...
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Dear Jonas,
As we look back on life it is easier to see what was really precious. And unfortunately, with some things we only know how precious they are when we nearly or actually lose them.
I hope, with my heart, you see the perfection of the simple, uncomplicated bond you have, of love. How that is the mirror of all our lives and the universe itself.
As I look back in my mirror of my past life and those of others I am struck by how inevitable it was that in a philosophy which regarded home and domestic love as secondary to loving the "master"; there should be so many failures of the relationships, unnoticed in the quest for success with the artificial, unrealistic and illusory goals of achieving some sort of special peace or enlightenment through meditation and a special relationship with the "guru".
Now, looking back, I wish I had dedicated my whole life to a family. You are lucky to be still able to prevent the shadow which fell across and between so many who heard the siren song of satsang.
Continually labelled a lesser relationship by the cult it was bound to be the first to fall. Preserve this love my friend and see there: your reflection in the Great Mirror of Life.
You have everything. You have each other, the sky, the ground you walk on. your being and your breath. Indeed, for all these things, you are a part of everything, Life and the Universe itself are expressing anew in you.
A midwife told me that miscarriages precede perfectly normal births, more often than we might think, when my ex-wife miscarried. If there is anything to be learnt from the mistakes of the past it is in contemplating those who may avoid our mistakes that any remaining joy in it lies.
I will not go into what I have suffered as a result of "the love of the master" but it is enough to exhort you with all my heart to love your wife fully and love your life together and your home, And I weep with longing for you to have children one day so that you may also love them with your whole heart: for that is the meaning of life.
Saph
Modified by Lp at Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 05:22:36
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jonas - I am so sorry for the pain you and your wife must have experienced over the miscarriages. My brother and his wife spent years trying AI to conceive a child and the few time she did conceive, she miscarried. Finally they adopted a child, and he is 9 now, and the sweetest thing in the world. I am so happy for you that you have "seen the light" about this cult before becoming involved and endangering your marriage. Rawat has no respect for the love of others and is especially condemning of relationships. There are so many other ways to find your spiritual center - don't trust your heart to that monster.
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thank you for good words. I am 30 years and my wife is 38, she has two children from previous relationships, and I love them as my own. I can also feel the love they have for me. So 2 months ago, when we had a failed AI. We very happely decided to stop the suffering and be happy with what we got. Now we look forward to enjoy eachother, life and the love we married for. I feel no more sorrow for not getting a baby. But is WAS really though when we were in the middle of it.
We tried,,, one has no garanties in life. Still I was dangerusly close to the edge in understanding my "thirst".
And as I just said, we made peace with not getting a baby, but the PR
message stuck with me. Until today that is...  If I started the process with the "keys", it could as you say endangered my marriage. Luckely I posted here.
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but the source of fulfilment is not rawat. Believe me on that - I worked for him for many years and I know his hypocrisy and deceit. There are many spiritual paths that people take to quench that thirst for the divine, and I understand your need. But don't waste your love on that man. He uses that thirst in people to try to convince them that he is the answer - because this provides him with money and power, but he is not the answer - and he makes people waste years of their lives, and destroy countless loving relationships with family and friends, all for a lie, and a promise that he never kept. Some people here have chosen not to have anything to do with god or religion because of how rawat destroyed their trust - and that is ok - they have found their peace in what they do, people they are with, or in just loving nature and this creation. I have found peace in my life through going back to the religion I followed before meeting rawat, but I respect those who choose not to walk the path of religion any more. I only followed rawat in the first place because he claimed to be the incarnation of God - and I have no idea how I fell for such an outrageous lie, when he obviously was nothing of the sort! That is why you must avoid the brainwashing from the very beginning! You will find what you seek eventually, but be very discerning in your search -- and don't give up family and friends for any teacher - if they love you - they will be there when the teacher is just a bad memory.
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though I guess you figured on someone saying that. Yes it is true that some people feel compelled to find spiritual meaning in their life, but the way Rawatism defines and delineates thirst, as though it is the driving force of your time on Earth – almost like a tangible need – is a complete fiction. Many – I would even venture to say most people's spiritual needs are directed toward meaning, inspiration, consolation, community, and are met with much less and much more than consuming self absorbtion.
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I will defend to the death your right to disagree with me
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The idea that there's some inner part of us which thirsts for spiritual relief and completion is just a religious superstition. Many religions are based on it but there's nothing true about it. No more than the notion that there's a purity within or anything along those lines. Nonsense!
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Hi Jim,
While I agree totally that there is no special extra-dimensional "thirst" implanted in us by a benign God that is driving us to find Him and merge back into the Godhead, da, da,da,da.. nevertheless, for a minority of people, including myself, especially when we are young and immature the idea that there is some method of spiritual relief and completion is extremely attractive, so attractive that it can become the dominant force in a person's life.
I now believe that it is false and futile though when people assuage this "thirst" through positive means I certainly don't go berating them for the falseness of their ideas but I am happy to be able in some small way to expose a phony like Rawat. Despite what some premies might say, I am not assuaging my thirst with my anti-Rawat religious practices but it seems like once you recognise the falseness of the quest the thirst slowly dribbles away.
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The "thirst" is an emotion felt and experienced and based around the idea that there is more available in life and there are methods to attain it available, it is as real as any other "want" that we expereince. Sure it's a metaphor, but it's quite a good one which means that Rawat didn't make it up.
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There's no more available in life than life itself. The idea that there is is false. Therefore any craving for that which isn't there, however sincere or deeply felt, is false. The "thirst" for something imaginary can never be considered real in any meaningful sense. It certainly isn't the case that this supposed thirst is a special, internal human feature that we should cultivate and try to satisfy.
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but I certainly don't agree that a "false" craving isn't real. "any craving for that which isn't there, however sincere or deeply felt, is false." Well sure, it's a craving for something non-existent but it's still a real craving. If the only thoughts or feelings any person had ever had had to be "correct" or "true" to be felt there'd be an awful lot fewer of them.
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Ocker, The "craving" or "thirst" isn't just a feeling like any other but, according to many, a profound and sacred internal homing signal. But that's just a myth. So, spiritually-inclined people who believe this myth imagine this deep thing with infinite roots and connections to God but that's all it is, imagination. It's like a hypochondriac misconstruing a little thirst (the real kind) for rabies.
Modified by Jim at Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 17:16:18
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"Sure it's a metaphor, but it's quite a good one which means that Rawat didn't make it up."
No, he didn't Ocker, good catch -- and the so-called "thirst" was in me long before I ever came across the boy guru. I don't care what it is called, but in my readings, there are many through the ages who have experienced similar feelings to mine, and who share similar experiences to mine. Perhaps there are a multitude of ways in which these things can be explained, but if no one is injured through my own interpretation, then I am happy to choose my own path, of my own free will. And to feel content with my choice. I was raised by parents who believed that religion was the "opiate of the masses" and only those who were not intellectually able to deal with "life as it is" would turn to a god. I see some of that intellectual snobbery here as well. Just because rawat is a fake doesn't mean that all spiritual searching and discovery is also fake. To claim to "know" what is REAL and what is NOT REAL is pure arrogance, imho. We just don't know - that is why there are agnostics, and I respect those who admit they don't know. But it is very hard to respect those who claim to know the TRUTH for everyone. Come on, Jim, I respect your mind, but you are no more the "one who knows" what is REAL than rawat is. Have a little humility and admit that there might be things in this universe for which you don't have all the answers. "There is more to heaven and earth...."
Modified by Annie at Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 22:31:38
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Annie, You're absolutely right. The thirst is real. Your parents are/were outrageous, thinking that they could discern anything about human life at odds with the wisdom of the ancients. You, on the other hand, turned out okay. No thanks to them, of course. So, tell me, can you perhaps turn me on to some spiritual teaching that will help me get rid of this arrogance that plagues me? Please, I need a teaching! A teacher! Something. The older the better ....
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Jim - you are a riot. My parents were lovely people, my mother was nearly a saint, but she was also a totally impractical person who never should have had 7 children (but I am glad she had #2 - me so I guess my brother at #7 would be glad she had him as well). I only brought them up to point out that I am neither unfamiliar with the "there is no god" philosophy nor the "this is the only god" philosophy. And of course Alan Watts said that arrogance is more fun than humility, so who am I to tell you not to have spiritual arrogance or to be humble? My brothers tease me all the time about my beliefs - and they are very much like you (and my parents), so I have learned to laugh at myself, as well as at their intolerance of anything they can't dissect with the carving knife of intellect and science. I can recommend no teacher for you, nor can I suggest a path... each of us is our own "discovery channel" with a tivo box called "free will" (hey - just made that one up myself - lol). From personal experience, I can advise people not to try the teacher called rawat, but then you knew that one already, didn't you? God love your arrogant soul, Jim!
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How could Alan Watts have known that? You do have to experience both states to be able to make a judgement.
What's a "tivo box"?
But what is this strange intellectual idea you have that atheists are atheists because they must dissect with intellect and science? I'm as romantic, emotional and mystical as any religious person and I'm prepared to have my feelings compared with yours under a scanning electron microsocope in a dust-free laboratory to prove it.
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You would have to read Alan Watts to make your own conclusions I guess. It was so long ago that I read his works - I couldn't really speak with any authority on them. I do remember that he made me think, and he made me laugh - two things I love doing! As for the atheist dissection techniques, perhaps I am speaking for myself because my first reaction upon admitting that rawat was a fake, was to deny the existence of anything that I couldn't prove in a scientific way. Later, I decided that since the stupid little man had already robbed me of years of my life, I was not going to let him rob me of my own feelings of faith and inner life as well. From your other post, you sound more like an agnostic than an atheist, but if that is what you want to call yourself, who am I to argue?
Modified by Annie at Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 23:35:29
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That is an atheist because the evidence is so strongly against there being a God but showing a touch of humility that will hopefully prevent too many lip-curling sneers from "deep" religious people tut tutting about my shallow scientism.
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I LOVE IT! (really) In a humorus (I hope) vein, since words are so important, it is always a good idea to make one up to express just what you mean. That way, no one can accuse you of something you didn't mean. After all, it is your word so it can mean whatever you want. I am therefore no longer going to be a religious person. I am going to be a ... help me here ... a "agathiligious person. That way if there is no God (atheist) or there is (religious) or if we will never know (agnostic) - all my bases are covered. So no one is allowed to box me any more - I am an agathiligious person and only I know what that means!
Modified by Annie at Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 00:06:25
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And your words will remain on the internet forever. Somehow I don't think 'agathiligious' has a future though I love the resonance with 'agape' and 'theophilous'
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Ah yes, but I did say that only I can determine what that word means, so it means whatever I want it to mean - at the time.... Perhaps I need to become a cult guru - I can change words and definitions any time I want???
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Annie, You didn't describe your parents as lovely people but rather as intellectual snobs lacking humility. Indeed, when I think back to how I first reacted to that description, how it made me cry for you, how it ruined my day and probably made everyone around me miserable too, I just wish I'd known that you really meant to say that they were lovely and near sainthood. It's quite a different picture, don't you think? But, seriously though, I hate Alan Watts. With a passion. As I retrace my path into and out of Rawat's sewer system, it was Watts who removed the manhole cover and intrigued me into looking down, down, down into "the void". Alas, I wish I'd never read "The Book (The Taboo Against Knowing Who We Really Are)". At least not as an impressionable 17 year-old. It was my undoing. It perversely introduced me to the notion that none of this was real, we're all God playing hide-and-seek with himself and all we have to do is get past our crusty western egos and we could bathe in the warm jetstream of universal love which, a short time later, I "learned" was nothing less than Rawat's endless peeing in the ocean. Alan Watts, like Richard Alpert (d/b/a Ram Dass), beguiled me his glib, chatty nonchalance. I thought these guys really knew what they were talking about and that was it for me. Wrong! At this point, whatever Watts has to say gets no further than my hand. Too bad he's dead, I'd like to send him an email.
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Jesus, You are in a mood this week!
What the heck, I wish I'd never read The Way of Zen and the other half dozen books I read by him but it wouldn't have helped cause I read far too many other books anyway.
We can't blame Watts for our own foolishness and I'm pretty sure he would never have told us to follow Prem Rawat, now would he? Watts, as he often said, was just an author not a guru. He had to make a living after all and if he drank himself to death he was amusing during the process but humble, never.
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Aw, shucks, I'm just a little burnt out. Finished a five-week trial yesterday, spent a full day and a half on my feet arguing for an acquittal. (Won't know until April 27th.) And I'm too fat. And I really hate Alan Watts for making me fat. If it weren't for him no guru, nothing to spend years of my life staring at a computer monitor for, plus I wouldn't be getting older either. Lots of things. I'm surprised you let him off that easy.
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That is the brilliant mind I love so much! Don't worry about your weight, death will take care of that problem! lol As my brother keeps saying to me, "There is only one way to find out if God exists, and I'm not ready to leave yet!"
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and the guy who wrote "Rock Me Maharaji" but mainly Bridgeford for "At The Feet Of The Master" which is probably what pushed me over the line especially when it was sung with a 10 or 20 piece ladies' choir dressed in long white Indian dresses (not saris!) at Neutral Bay before they showed a ridiculous movie which might have been 'Satguru Has Come'.
And I'm a guy who had seen Krishnamurti up close and he wasn't in the slightest bit impressive. F_ck! Life was weird. Thank heavens thtat's all over.
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Those songs, that movie, my life! Yes, weird indeed and over, over, over. Much as I hate Alan Watts, though, I love Krishnamurti. I only got exposed to him after leaving the ashram and slowly leaving the cult in the early 80s. His talks were often played in the middle of the night on Roy of Hollywood's "Something's Happening" show on the far-left Pacifica station KPFK. He was such a ridiculous, pompous, richly self-contradictory ass I finally realized how stupid all this spiritual blather was. He made the whole notion of guruship (which he clearly indulged in despite his whole un-guru schtick) so stupid and boring I began laughing at is as I should have ten years before.
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Superficially you could hardly find two more different gurus. How Rawat would love to have K's handsome distinguished looks, his speaking voice and his fluency in English, his great golf game, his cars, his famous Hollwood friends and most of all, oh how he would love to have K's credibility, his fame, his respect. Yes! Respect!
But both of them claimed to have given up the whole Eastern guru, Messiah, Incarnation claptrap while "secretly" keeping it going.
And that comb-over, if only I could find another copy of the Krishnamurti comb-over photo but someone (a Krishnie I believe) ripped it out of the book in the State Library before I thought of photocopying it. What a pussy he was, just the sight of me looming over the purple rinsed heads of his dear old Aussie lady acolytes scared the living daylights out of him.
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Jim The problem with words, (and Cynthia has pointed this out to me), is that although the writer intends them to mean one things, the reader can interpret them in a totally different way. I would love to send you a psychic bolt of thought so that you can see what I am trying to say, but since psychic energy might not exist, perhaps wishing for it is irrelevant? Funny that you should make Alan Watts the focal point of the conversation (and vilify him so strongly) since he is in favor of what I called your spiritual arrogance. Alan Watts was a step along the path for me, as was that silly guru Lobsang Rampa (as much of a fake as rawat but at least he did it by writing books only). I love reading and devour so much that I can't remember more than bits of anything so quoting is usually very difficult for me. As for my poor maligned parents, your jump into the hyperspace of pity for me is totally unnecessary since in my original post I painted them as intellectual snobs (which they were) but not as abusive caregivers. Sarcasm is a wonderful gift I am sure, but it doesn't enable a meaningful discussion to take place. It is a little beneath your high level of intelligence (which I admit you have) to try to carry on an argument solely by ridicule and contempt. I love your mind, Jim. It is very hostile (in my arrogant opinion), but it is also clear thinking and as honest as I am sure any one of us can be. I would like to have known you before rawat polluted it. I would also like to have mine back the way it was before he polluted it, but then I might be missing out on some hard gained wisdom - so I guess that it a silly wish..... If you ever feel like having a real discussion, Jim, I would love it. I enjoy opposition, but don't really see any point in flaming or put-downs just for the sake of scoring points off each other. I am not good at it for one thing, and it really takes away the stimulation of thinking about different points of view. If your goal is just to win at words, then I concede... but it would be so nice to see that brain in real action, and not just used for playing the court jester. Love you Jim
Modified by Annie at Fri, Apr 06, 2007, 00:38:20
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Annie, I'm getting dizzy trying to make sense of your swirling mix of insults and compliments, smiles and sneers. But I take it all in stride and, please don't take this as too patronizing, I know that you have to respond to me this way to protect your "spirit" just so. But is this really fair? Your side of the fence always has that extra dollop of "love" thrown in. I've just got boring old reason, and yes, words, that kind of thing. I don't think words suffer the problem you allege although I'm well familiar with that argument. To me, it's really just a widespread but nonetheless unjustified spiritual shellgame. Here's why. I believe that your spiritual beliefs, like anyone's, are all the stuff of words and ideas in your own mind, however vague and inconsistent they might be. It's all ideas and ideas are words, especially after we've had them for anything more than a fleeting second. They congeal and stabilize in our minds quite nicely as words. That's what allows spiritual people to exchange ideas with each other or even to remember what they think about anything one day to the next. It's words, not lightning bolts, that make that happen. But by dissing words -- through words -- as spiritual people do, they're essentially saying they don't have to be really accountable to anything. Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose and it's all a big meltdown into whatever superstition you favour. Capiche? You criticize me for being sarcastic and just fooling around but honestly, let's be fair, you know damn well that you're not interested in a serious discussion about spirituality. That's all enemy territory. So whatever, no big. Your faith amuses you and me. At least we have that in common.
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This is not directly rawat related so if the admin needs to take it out - that's fine with me. "But by dissing words -- through words -- as spiritual people do, they're essentially saying they don't have to be really accountable to anything." First, I am not the one who has problems with words - that is Cynthia. Every time I posted something, she dissected the words and said it was because the meaning had to be clear, so I am trying to play by her rules as much as possible - but it isn't easy when anything I say is misinterpreted. And since she states she is an atheist - it obviously isn't only spiritual people who have a problem with words. I am sorry that you think I have insulted you. I thought you liked to call a spade a spade, and if you don't consider yourself arrogant, then I guess it is an insult. From your posts I just drew the conclusion that you felt your opinion was more important than anyone else's (you must admit you can be very hostile) and therefore you would be proud to be considered arrogant. I used Watt's quote to show humor and that not everyone considers arrogance to be a bad thing. And I do honestly consider you to be intelligent so the compliment stands. If I have thrown in any "dollop of love", that's great, I don't know why that would be wrong? I do hope though, that I have tried to use reason as well. But of course, we all tend to think that we are the only ones who see things clearly (you and me included) and that the other person just can't see what it right there in front of them! If only they could be more open and reasonable!! I find it hard to always know when you are being sarcastic and flip and when you are serious, so perhaps communication is impossible between us, not because "That's all enemy territory", but because you simply want to put me down for being religious. I don't feel any need to "protect my spirit" and I don't know where you got that idea from. I was not a born and bred Catholic, so I have no automatic defense mechanisms for the church. I am totally open to seeing the failings of all religions (including the Catholic church) but that doesn't mean that I need to despise and denigrate the beliefs of others. When I say something, it is because I have thought about it and chosen to believe a certain thing. Sometimes I like to consider other things, to see how others think. I honestly do love dialogue - even if it is with someone who disagrees. Right now, on another forum, I am in dialogue with a born-again Christian who hates the Catholic Church with a passion. The challenge for me is that I have always been an arrogant and self-opinionated person and now I am trying to actually listen to what others are saying - not because either of us is ever going to convince the other (just a fact), but because we are humans sharing a planet and who are (my favorite expression coming up), "just trying to cope". So although I try to write with charity now. I don't always succeed. On the other forum we are both being polite to each other despite our widely diverging views, and that means we can still communicate. I have friends who totally disagree wtih my views but we still love each other and accept each other. "Your faith amuses you and me." My faith amuses you. You amuse me. You have wit and intelligence, and that reminds me of my brothers (I have six of them). So I admit to having a certain amount of affection for intelligent people who have a sense of humor. At this point in the message I would usually insert something affectionate as a close, hoping to let you know that I admire you, even if we disagree, but this too will be misinterpreted with a sneer, so I won't this time. Beware of spontaneous bursts of affection in the future however!
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Annie, First, I am not the one who has problems with words - that is Cynthia. Every time I posted something, she dissected the words and said it was because the meaning had to be clear, so I am trying to play by her rules as much as possible - but it isn't easy when anything I say is misinterpreted. And since she states she is an atheist - it obviously isn't only spiritual people who have a problem with words. This is the third or fourth time you have made a sarcastic remark to or about me concerning "words." This is what I said to you concerning words, which was in the context of your post to Lesley, which she later told you that you misinterpreted. Me: "Words and their specific meanings are very important." I also told you that I think that making your belief into fact is wrong. I still think that. Annie, how you interpreted that I was making up rules for you to play by, is beyond me. Please take responsibility for the shortcomings you may have without laying them on me. The only form of communication here is written conversation, so if we start making up new definitions for words, well, we're in real trouble here. That doesn't have anything to do with whether or not I'm an atheist, which you brought up not me. I try not to discuss it here anymore because it's nobody's business and definitely not the topic of the forum.
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 08:04:33
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You are the one that kept stressing the meaning of words to me, not the other way around. I was trying to refute Jim's claim that "spiritual people" are the ones who have a problem with words and I was using you as an example since you are an atheist - so that is why I felt it your beliefs were relevant to what I posted. Perhaps you are not aware that you come across as very dogmatic? I felt that you were trying to set rules for communication, when in fact, words are very flexible things to me, each one can have a variety of meanings, especially in a language like English. I did not mean my comment to be sarcastic, but to be factual. I am sorry you took offence. You seem to be both defensive and hostile to me personally, and it appears to be because I am religious and I get the impression that you look down upon this. I could be mistaken however, but that is how you come across to me. I find it very difficult to communicate with you because you always seem hostile to me. I am not trying to proselytize, whether you believe that or not, but my religion is a part of who I am, and naturally it affects how I feel and what I post. The whole rawat experience for me was based on believing that he was God, so obviously God has always played a significant part in my life. Rawat stole that from me for a long time, first while I was being deceived by him, and later, after I left and felt that I would never be able to believe in anything again. But time heals wounds and I have returned to my faith, and I am happy with it. I would expect for you to be happy for me too, since you know how evil rawat was for taking away our lives. I should have entered the convent 30 years ago, and because I believed his lies, I didn't. I am picking up the pieces of my life again, and I am happy. I had to apply to 66 communities to find one that would accept me at my age! I am happy that you are so fulfilled and satisfied in your life. You obviously don't need God, that is great for you. I am also happy for those who want to be Buddhists or Hindus or New Age spiritualists - whatever rocks their boats. Please don't try to make me apologize for being where I want to be now and doing what I want to do. As exes, we need to encourage and support each other to regain our lost lives, and to be happy for each other, whatever path each of us chooses to take at this time. As long as we strive to do no harm to others, each of us deserves to be as happy as we can be in this life.
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Annie, Perhaps you are not aware that you come across as very dogmatic? I felt that you were trying to set rules for communication, when in fact, words are very flexible things to me, each one can have a variety of meanings, especially in a language like English. I know I'm opinionated, but not dogmatic. All of of the people that post on this forum have strong personalities and are quite opinionated, including yourself. Religion is naturally a controversial (off)-topic subject here so I'm surprised that you're surprised by being challenged by myself, Jim or anyone. You brought up the subject, not anyone else. I did not mean my comment to be sarcastic, but to be factual. I am sorry you took offence. You seem to be both defensive and hostile to me personally, and it appears to be because I am religious and I get the impression that you look down upon this. I could be mistaken however, but that is how you come across to me. I haven't been feeling hostile nor defensive towards you or anyone on this forum. I have felt a bit of defensiveness from you, but I'm sure I could have misread you too. I'm fine with my godlessness as Axis would say, so I never apologize for that. Many of the people I know in real life are religious and we get along just fine. It's a highly private matter. I may have come across as crabby from time to time, but that wasn't intentional at all, only a result of having been sick with a rather nasty, nagging, monster of a cold and other yucky bugs that I haven't been able to shake for over a month, so that mood might have been leaking through from time to time due to my being really sick of being sick. For that I apologize, because believe me, I've been crabby at times. My bone to pick with you really had nothing to do with your religion, either, Annie. I must have misread your comments about me, and got mistakenly annoyed. Please don't try to make me apologize for being where I want to be now and doing what I want to do. As exes, we need to encourage and support each other to regain our lost lives, and to be happy for each other, whatever path each of us chooses to take at this time. As long as we strive to do no harm to others, each of us deserves to be as happy as we can be in this life. When did I ever ask you to apologize for your religion? Never. Annie, I've already told you I'm happy for you and that I wouldn't think of asking you to apologize for your life-choices. I meant that when I said it and I mean it now. Of course I wish you the best, always. Be well, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Apr 07, 2007, 17:17:59
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My latin is less than pre-school level, but I think that means peace be with you or something like that. Truce.... we are "sisters" in our unity against the evil one - rawat!
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Thanks, Annie. Peace to you too.
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My latin is less than pre-school level, but I think that means peace be with you or something like that. Truce.... we are "sisters" in our unity against the evil one - rawat!
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Annie, First, before I say another word, I must say that you seem like a very nice, generally intelligent person. I'm sure your brothers think so too. Having said that though, I must say, you've taken this whole "problem with words" thing and turned it on its head. My point was that spiritual people often (always?) think that if words fail them, they're still right, no matter what. The "courage of their convictions" overwhelms the limitations of logic and the mere, pedestrian meaning of words. That is what I call a problem, not being inclined to pointing it out.
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So I don't know why I get saddled with the outcome of the conversation. And I doubt that anyone (spiritual or not) "always" does anything (so I don't know why you put it there, even in brackets). I don't even "always" brush my teeth the same way. I think that you, Jim, and Cynthia are just hypersensitive about anything to do with spirituality of any kind! The minute an ex says they have a spiritual belief, you are all over them like a ton of bricks. Let's get back to rawat - at least we can agree the he is evil (can't we?)......
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I'd rather go for the jugular of the tooth fairy, or maybe my old favourite, that incarnation of evil, yes the corpulent one in a red suit, Santa himself ... or old Nick as he's known in some parts of darkest europe.
I really do think that pretending it was santa who gave your kid a present, not you, has to be a dud.
Or perhaps I could take a swipe at the easter bunny - hey visiting the city does this to me - line up them floppy eared monsters and I'll take out the lot!
On the woes of being an atheist, one of the observations I have made is that whilst an atheist might attack that major general of a monster they are not attacking the person, indeed from the perspective of an atheist it is a mark of respect to the person that they consider them worth talking to despite their being a person who walks with god.(arrogant enough?) and then to cap it off, quite frequently are viewed with dark suspicion due to their godlessness, instead of appreciated for shining a little light on a subject that I do think matters.
If god exists, a terrifying concept if you ask me and well worthy of a pantheon of assistance, such as Jesus plus angels plus the spirits of loved ones plus one's favourite pet and a few heavy duty guardian angels and some saints - considering one is so eternally subject to his good graces.
Indeed I think I'd also want the prayers of all god fearing folks for good measure.
Or he doesn't, in which case I can get on with living and loving and whatever else under my own aegis. 
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Actually I'm with Jim on the atheism front-line. But as I spent decades trying to assuage that "thirst" (which had nothing to do with Rawat in the 1960's or 1980's) I'm quite agreeable to others maintaining their viewpoints without me ramming mine down their throat. Of course, on this and similar topics, there can never be complete certainty but I'm comfortable with the evodence as it stands.
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"The idea that there's some inner part of us which thirsts for spiritual relief and completion is just a religious superstition. Many religions are based on it but there's nothing true about it." A votre avis, mon amis, a votre avis!
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Dear Jonas, you defined yourself as: a strong willed free thinker. I think you really are, because, albeit your certain involvement with the keys and premies you had the common sense and power of reason to cheque more deeply into it, and use the internet as a tool to communicate. Congratulations! 30 years ago that wasn't possible but I doubt if I would had listened to anyone telling me bad things about the cult - I was so "thirsty", and the thirstier I got the more disappointed I became when I realized how empty this promise was. Someone wrote in the end of his Journey: Rawatism is a spiritual cul-de-sac, its significance is not what lies at its end, but in the time it takes the individual to turn around and rejoin the highway. I wish you and your wife happy years together. I also have a loving relationship with my husband's two children (grown-ups now).
Modified by snow-white at Wed, Apr 04, 2007, 00:55:16
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Jonas, Thanks so much for your interesting posts. It shows how the secretiveness of cults begin at the very first steps of involvement! How scary! This thread also shows how well-meaning people can be made into liars by their involvement with Prem Rawat. Mr. Rawat once said that hypocrisy for the guru is ok. And he means it. One of the worst things about religion is people start to believe in something "higher" than the world, and then they adopt moral systems that relate to the higher world. It does a lot of harm down here! First instance, the belief that sex is sinful. What a load of suffering religion can cause! This moral problem is very evident with Rawatism. It's subtle, but it really does damage to people's lives. Premies do pledge allegiance to a higher value, the joy within with some degree of denial and distrust for ordinary, "worldly" joy. The friend within becomes the no.1 priority over all other friends. This aspect of Rawatism is perhaps the one I hate the most. I personally know premies who have extremely cold hearts toward this world and everyone in it! p.s. be careful not to saw yourself in half, that would be very bad!!
Modified by Will at Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 09:29:28
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No, thank you Jonas.
It's really cheered me up to know that you've escaped the clutches of the Pied Piper due to our efforts at public communication.
All the best to you & yours.
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that's word of the month for me! It usually goes by shudder Jonas, but shrudder is great. I guess it's a sliver of a shudder with a shot of a shrug.
Well Jonas, people have said everything I could say and much better. I am so happy to see how a little sensible talk can apparently bring someone back to themselves so quickly.
Our world around us has so much to offer without having to bury ourselves in magical fairy tales. The life of a premie is ironically, at least in my opinion, really very negative, in the sense that one looks at life so negatively. Everything other than your own internal experience, whatever that is supposed to be, a kind of natural high, is fairly meaningless and even an object of disdain.
By the way, my wife and I adopted two amazing and beautiful orphans from South Africa not long ago. A boy named Samkelo aged 5 and a girl Thandi Donna aged 4. If there was anything that would cause me to believe in God, it is these children and the fact that they entered our lives.
There is no "joy" or "thirst" or spiritual salvation that could touch or replace the happiness I have every day with these children. But if it hadn't happened, my life with two feet planted squarely in worldly concerns would still have been lovely, as it already was.
On the other hand, I know what a emotional hardship trying to have a baby and on top of that having a miscarriage can be. It just happened recently to a good friend of mine. But the tragic moments of life are also part of it and I would never want to anaesthetise them with false beliefs.
Modified by aunt bea at Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 15:36:06
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Personally I think you should listen to Prem Rawat talk about himself. Sure he was a bit younger then but he told the truth in those days: See and hear him in the videos at http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/supapuja.html. They are not streaming like in YouTube but they're conveniently organised and you can read what he said and only download the videos if you like. Then you can invite your friends around and ask them to comment on the video clips of Prem Rawat (he used to call himself Guru Maharaj Ji and say he was the Perfect Master) saying:
"Guru Maharaj Ji is that Supreme Power.
Is, was and always will be!"
"If you have a Perfect Master you can’t do anything but worship him every day of your life.
You tell me, if you really have that Perfect Master in your life, what can you do except to worship him every day?
Get up and worship him, pray, know, surrender. Every day of your life!"
Or see lots of video clips of him talking at different stages of his life at http://www.ex-premie.org/video/ and lots of people kissing his feet at http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/darshan.html
I particularly like the touch that Prem gave at his wedding when he allowed his new wife to kiss his feet
http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/durgaji/intheeyesofgod.html
and the whole story at
http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/durgaji/wedding.html
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Jonas, in all his speeches (satsangs) throughout the years, guru maharji aka prem pal showed nothing but contempt and derision to human endeavors. For him everything we do, or try doing is meaningless: family, career, hobbies, travels, developing our talents, our minds, overcoming difficulties, facing challenges, for him its all nothing, useless, a thing to be ridicule. I recommend you to read his satsangs in the DLM/EV gallery and see how arrogant he is, claiming to be God, to know better then you what's best for you, claiming to know you better than you know yourself. But to succeed in persuading you, the first step is of course is to suppress your ego, your mind, he calls it "concepts", I call it reason and the power to judge and discriminate. In Ego i don't mean being selfish and disregarding other people's needs, but ego - that vehicle that helps us to live in this world, to act, to achieve and to grow. His claim that there is an inner peace inside you that you don't know about and only he can give you the key or the access, is misleading. The peace he is talking about is an escapism (and who said life is always easy). This is where maharaji gets in - playing on people's fears and doubts, especially young people. All the best, miri
Related link: http://www.ex-premie.org/gallery/
Modified by snow-white at Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 01:15:28
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Dear Jonas,You asked if Mr. Rawat ever claimed to be God. The entire basis of his "experience" is the worship and adoration of him as a diving "master". When he first came to the West from India, he was billed as the Perfect Master and Lord of the Universe. We all accepted him as such, and used to fall on our faces on the floor when in his presence, and try to touch or kiss his feet. Read up on this on ex-premie.org. I was a "premie" and a career-servant with his organizations for 9 years during the 70s and early 80s and can vouch for every word on ex-premie.org being true. Ashrams were Indian-style communal living houses where thousands of devotees lived for many years during the 1970s and 80s. They had very strict rules (no alcohol, drugs, sex, money or personal possessions beyond a few clothes and photos of our "Lord"). We were required, morning and night, to sing a lengthy song to Guru Maharaji -- we all stood before his large photo, and someone at the front waved a tray full of butter lamps and flowers while the song "Arti" was sung. Every single night throughout Europe and North America and many other countries, by thousands of people. And at every "event" or program that he asked people to attend, while he sat on the stage smiling, oftentimes dressed in a costume in imitation of the Indian god Krishna (implying that he was the reincarnation). Jonas, if you become a follower of Rawat, you, too, will find yourself running after him all over the globe to see him and get that "high" that comes from being in his presence with so many others adoring him, spending all your spare cash thus jeopardizing your relationships with all your current family and friends. The words of Arti are linked below. At the end of this song everyone falls down on the floor with their arms outstretched in front of them, surrendering to their Lord Guru Maharaji. What he presents now is carefully constructed to hide this past, and make him look like a simple teacher of profound truths. Nothing could be further from the actual truth. It is a personality cult, with Rawat at the center, and the experience of peace they claim to have is nothing more than infatuation with Rawat. Everyone desires and needs a transcendent and spiritual experience in their lives. This is not the way to get it. Read this and decide for yourself if this is something you want to be a part of. I applaud you for having the courage to speak out here and voice your doubts before proceeding blindly into this. Best of luck to you, Jonas. http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/arti.htm another song was added to this at the beginning called Twameva Mata. I can't find the lyrics -- are they on EPO somewhere (admin? If so, please link) It went something like this: You are my mother, you are my father,
You are riches, you are Wisdom,
you are my all, my Lord, to me Guru Maharaji, my life is within you
From you I was born, and to you now I go
Our Lord's the superior Power in Person
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord
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'The entire basis of his "experience" is the worship and adoration of him as a diving "master".'
I was a premie for years, but I never knew about the underwater aspect of the master! I guess it must have been just the select few that got to be taught diving by him.
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eeer I think she meant divine )Anyway, who but the divine Prem Rawatt(who never claimed to be god)could write words such as Meditation begins in the form of our Master,
Adoration begins at the feet of our Lord,
Concentration begins in the words of our Master,
Liberation begins in the grace of our Lord. Our Lord is the maker of all things created
He keeps them and brings them
all home to His Word
Our Lord is The superior power in person
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.
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divine!... I assumed 'living' was the intention.
skiving master?
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well there is only a one letter difference between 'divinG' and 'divinE' ...and the 'e' is close to the 'g' on a keyboard..an easy error. 'd' and 'l' are far apartQED
Modified by Jethro at Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 02:38:48
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I think you are right - I was just amused at my own flawed assumption.
Of course, there is one person who can say absolutely what the intention was.
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Modified by Jethro at Tue, Apr 03, 2007, 02:56:24
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Anyway it works OK as it is; in the sense of:-
Master - feet: diving for - for the use of.
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Alright, already, it was late at night and I made a typo (me, the professional typesetter!). Hopefully the admin can fix it and Jonas will be able to read my real intent.And kudos to you Jethro, for having a better memory than me for the words to Arti. Those were the sort of preamble, weren't they, that was sung just before the main song? I believe M made those up himself. I wish Rawat would take a dive out of sight. Like the Energizer bunny, he just seems to keep going and going. I guess when you live off other people's energy and money and have no conscience, it's not hard to do.
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We all keep going and going until we die and Rawat looks a lot worse for it than the rest of us.
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So it was 'living' then, good - the living waster.
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as in current incarnation, etc. Placing himself on the same level as Christ, Buddha, Krishna. Wonde what the Islamists would have to say about him if he included Mohammed in that lineup.Amazing how much controversy and comment a single letter typing mistake can generate!
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Reminds me of the Monty Python movie, Life of Brian. Maybe we should all just refer to rawat as the diving master from now on? hmmmm
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Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Apr 05, 2007, 11:44:26
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oh, maybe was about diving into pupu from the lower gods; they are full of it, that I know.
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For many of us our lives took a dive after being introduced to Rawat. So the typo is an appropriate "slip" after all. Kabir
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All the best Jonas whatever you decide to do.I left in 2000 after 25 years. I should have left in '75 after 25 minutes!
You are alone on stuff like this,
Love
Bryn
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Dear Jonas, Thank you for this opportunity to look into the process of cult entrapment. This movement looks so benign on the surface. How is one to know what lies beneath? I have really enjoyed watching you progress through these stages. Like the movie "Sunset Boulevard," this process isn't about one BIG choice, but a series of small choices and compromises. I am so proud of you that you chose to listen closely to your heart when the choice came to chose between Rawat and your wife. I chose to leave my boyfriend to move into the ashram and later I lost my fiancé when I chose a program with Rawat over his birthday. A lot of us lost a lot in the choices we made. Karen
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There seems to be a long tradition and body of knowledge, a business of influencing the choices other people make.
My mum got initiated, along with her parents, aged 14 into one of those spiritualist temples that sprung up in the thirties.
The medium channelled a great white spirit - a red indian called whitefeather and his friend painted pictures of him, Jesus was claimed as the great white spirit with wonderful teachings and religion sucked.
My mothers first attempt to implement her choice to leave her husband got stymied by the medium telling her that they had been interested in the same three children before and were together to work things out.
Really - and before that when she asked if there would be war he got that wrong too - said later it was a matter of keeping the positive thinking going.
They retired to a fab house in the country, only keeping in touch with a few select members who now became their special friends.
They weren't particularly bad people, that pair, and there was a limit to their greed and ability to take from others, I just wish that before they died they had had the decency to tell my mum who and what they were rather than leaving her to keep them on a pedestal.
A pox on em all I say!
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