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what an extraordinary coincidenceThirsty Fish (by Kabir) When I hear that the fish is thirsty in the water, it makes me laugh!
You have a thing in the house but you don't see it; you go to look for it outdoors.
The musk is in the deer's navel, but it's searching from forest to forest, all over for it.
Without gnosis of the Self, all is false!
What good then is the Ka‘bah? What good is Kashi (Benares)?
You can go (on pilgrimage) to the Ganges or to the Godavari,
but without It, all will become ruined.
It dwells all throughout water, land, and sea.
If you expect misery you'll lose the way.
Kabir says: Listen, brother sadhu, the sincere will attain immortality.
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Kabir: When I hear that the fish is thirsty in the water, it makes me laugh! What a plagarist! Rawat must think he owns everything, because he never gives anyone credit when he speaks. He's even plagarized Shakespeare.
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Cynthia, I have heard that poem loads of time in the 70s from Rawat.
In fact he is even acknowledged in Wiki for mentioning Kabir. Fancy that out of all the 1000s who mention Kabir every day, Wiki mentioned rawat."Kabir has enjoyed a revival of popularity over the past half century as arguably the most acceptable and understandable of the Indian Saints, with an especial influence over spiritual traditions such as that of Sant Mat and Radha Soami. Prem Rawat ('Maharaji') also refers frequently to Kabir's songs and poems as the embodiment of deep wisdom"
Related link: Kabir at Wiki
Modified by Jethro at Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 12:39:02
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The fish rots from the head down. Kabir
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I know, it's because he doesn't care about anything but spiritual reality,..... as if......
The only man who tries to parade his ignorance as a virtue
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I totally missed the Africa statement because I was laughing so hard at the fish get thristy statement. I know Maharaji only has an eighth grade education, but I don't think he paid much attention at school.
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"....the fish in the water is thirsty."
How would he know? Has he a degree in zoology? Is he able to identify the symptoms of dehydration in a fish? Do fish, indeed, actually get thirsty?
Or, as seems more likely to me, is he trying to talk nonsense until his followers stop listening in self-defence and just float along on meaninglessness?
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the inference is that you are surrounded by love and not noticing it.
which if you think he knows what he's talking about makes you doubt your own perceptions.
lots of things he says are like that.
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He's just really dumb, ignorant, uneducated, Angela. He doesn't read, and isn't interested in real knowledge and learning. For someone that has his standard of living, it's shameful he's so effin' dumb. I can't believe I used to think he was so smart. That's part of the religious myth, that Maharaji is wise and brilliant.
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Rawat always used dumb words like "something" instead of any creative language whatsoever. But what is really hypocritical about what he says is that he implies that one is looking for all the "wrong" things (having kids and wanting them to get married isn't exactly bad, now is it?) but that when you get knowledge then you supposedly get what you were always looking for. So, why does Rawat, who is supposedly the example of what this knowledge can do for you, has seemingly insatiable desires for all that is expensive and luxurious? How come he spends so much of his time collecting watches and getting the most expensive cars and planes? Is he looking for "something?" Why, if he already has what he has always been looking for? How does he explain this obvious contradiction? Is it his evil mind?
Modified by Joe at Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 19:22:15
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I think very much so. I've been accused in the forums for being too passionate against Rawat but look what he is doing since I left in Nov.99! I was acussed of looking here for sympathy. Is not true! I can't care less what any of you think about me! I tried to get together joining forces to combat his evil, spreading like a disease out of control and all I got was "oh, is just a dying cult. Think again. Look at the whole picture.This guy is out of his mind: EVIL, and powerful in the PR and money dept.! He has the means. He keeps spreading his lies now to talk again about God! Not right! What a good service the forums have been helping many leave the cult, myself included, but, he is still there, conquering new territories, deceiving more and more people; while people were fighting with each other, being rude, swearing, looking for attention, the guy keeps going. Those few he has around are united. We? Oh,, "they" call us a "hate group" all over the Internet, in a book, and bla, bla, bla.... Talk, chat. BUT this guy is very dangerous! He used us and he still is. I know, Americans know only how to divide; there is no real unity, just a few sectors. Ex-premies? Lets make another website! THAT is the solution. I read earlier Cynthia's original post and when I got to the last sentences of Rawat offering to show God all over again, repeating the 70s empty promises I had to leave, I couldn't read anymore. Showing God, all over again....Prem is evil Joe, he is. What a evil mind he has, always changing his tune to accommodate his needs as he goes. He is simply evil. His "God" is his father. He adores his father. I have a huge problem with this guy because since leaving the cult in Nov. 1999 all I have seen is his mind getting more evil as time goes by. He cannot show the GOD some do not know; all he can show is his god, Satan, the master of slavery, of pain, of confusion, of darkness. I react to Prem; he continues feeding MY fire alright. Aggressive? Provocative? HERE: Jesus, the Son of God, Prem, the son of Satan. Viva la libertad of free speech! USA, a great country! I praise God almighty who is pure LOVE, wisdom, and truth. All ignorance and suffering comes from Satan. Align with God. Those who can, take note and align with GOD. In the cult and doubting? Don't be afraid of leaving Rawat behind. PRAY. GOD always listens. He is a liberal giver! The world is on fire? Yes and Prem is determined to rule it. Let God win this one. Satan did enough damage. PRAY! The power of prayer is great! and you Rawat? How could I ever love you? Some people are simply not worth loving and you are one of them. I cannot say I love your essence either because is just pure evil. Your need to control, to rule, to use and abuse shows your true essence. EVIL. Have another scotch; no alcohol is going to quiet your dirty conscience. REPENT! You offended GOD and misused the Bible! For that great offense you are accountable. No need to reply Joe. You opened the door now I'm going to sleep and have sweet dreams, as always. I'm shocked by Prem's audacity.
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I know you dislike reading Maharaji's satsangs, but here's another one from Kathmandu that I think is very telling. On the inner circle blog it's called "Gold!!!" What's interesting is that he dreamed about three brothers and gold. Naturally, I love this one because he is really obsessed with gold, as in gold toilets, etc. In this story, I'm sure that Rawat thinks he's the smart, good brother.  In my dreams, I will be dreaming about speaking from the stage – I dream like that – and sometimes I come up with some good stories. Here is one of those stories.
There were three brothers. The day had come, they had grown up, their parents were older. The brothers decided to each go in their own direction, and do their own thing. That is what they had decided. At this, their parents said; “The gold which we have deposited, each of you get an equal share." They gave them each their share of gold. The first son got his share of gold, and started building a shelter. He built a cottage and also built a beautiful strong pit where he could keep his gold safely. He started praying to the gold, saying “You have so much power. Please take away my poverty.” This is what he did. He sang all kinds of devotional songs to please the gold. This is what the first son did. He did this every day. The second brother was a kind of scientist, he took his share of gold, and he started writing everyday, different stories about gold. He wrote – “this gold has the power to alleviate my poverty.” He wrote everyday. He also wrote admirations of the gold. He wrote of the beauty of the gold. The third brother took his gold to market, and sold it. With the money, he purchased a piece of land, a plow, and other materials for the household. He worked very hard, and planted fruits, plowed the field, and whatever he grew, he sold. He became a big business man. He had plenty of things to enjoy. Good buildings. Big buildings. He had plenty to enjoy. He got himself a car, and many years passed by. All three brothers met, and started talking about their lives. The first brother, his clothes were torn, he was dirty and skinny, still he was singing the devotion of the gold, saying “You are great. You are powerful.” The third brother turned to the second brother and said, “What are you doing?” The second brother said “I started writing about my gold. One day, that gold will alleviate my poverty. I have built a shrine for the gold, surrounded it with glass, and the sun lights it, and the gold shines. I started writing so many books about gold. I have prepared so many things. I am fully confident that one day the gold will help me to get rid of my poverty." The first two brothers looked to the third. The third brother said, “I’m sorry, I sold the gold on the first day in the market." “What?” said the first two brothers, surprised he had sold it. “How could you sell it?” they asked. He said, “with the money I got, I purchased land. I built a building, and my poverty has gone for good. I have no problems with food. No problems with clothing. Everything is there, available for me." And you two said, “Yes. The gold has the power to do that. The gold has the power to get rid of my poverty.” This is the story. What can you learn from the story? This one body, which we have got, which you have been given, how are you using your human body? For which purpose? As it is said, the path to fulfillment lies within. Not outside. Nobody else. This is what is said. People start praying, “One day, good fortune will fall upon us.” They start singing devotional songs – “Please help me, save me...” and all of that. All kinds of devotional acts they do. The first brother started singing “ You are great, you are the saviour, please, oh God..” that is what is sung. All kinds of devotional songs. On the other side, the scientist, the second brother - “I am not interested in devotional songs”, he said. “I need certification. I need evidences.” What kind of certification do you need? Isn’t that breath in and out evidence enough that you are alive? Isn’t that evidence of anything? You can see you are alive. This is what it is all about. That breath of life, that power is omnipotent. There is no place where that power doesn’t exist. That power, that God is also within you. And you are looking outside. Maharaji
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My immediate reaction to this story was that it simply didn't illustrate rawat's argument in any obvious way at all. Assuming gold symbolizes the potential of life, or god or whatever, the first brother spent his time like a premie, just meditating and thinking about life/god. The second brother, the so-called scientists, who wrote so much about gold is like a premie forever spouting about how wonderful rawat and his knowledge is. The third brother, the only one with any common sense, cashes in the gold for something worthwhile, and spends his time building a good life. Moral of the story: don’t waste you time on pie-in-the-sky ideas about god, get on with living. There’s nothing in the story as rawat tells it to justify his final comments about breath being the power of life. And his final, derogatory sentence, that “… you are looking outside” is precisely what the third brother did. rgj
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Right you are rgj, the story doesn't make much sense. The third brother is a materialist looking outside for happiness. His main purpose in life is to acquire money, cars and buildings. He doesn't seem very spiritual. If the path of fulfillment lies within then surely the third brother is missing the boat and wasting his life. All his external material possessions will pass away. If the power of God is truly within then what happened to meditation, grace, devotion, prayer and reading scriptures? Rawat talks about the purpose of life in the following link.
Related link: http://www.ex-premie.org/gallery/purpose_of_life.htm
Modified by Steve at Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 15:56:59
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Rumour has it that Rawat inherited an old book of folk fables from his father, which included all the old favourites he used to trot out as illustration, back when he1st came west.
This 'Gold' story seems to me to bear an uncanny resemblance to those; the idea that he dreamt it is just ludicrous, but the fact that he claimed he did is telling. Listening to other people recount their dreams, quickly becomes tiresome, but when it's the Master's dreams then every ear is strained to catch the significance . He seems to revert to his early persona when he's speaking to his domestic audience, which makes one wonder what else he's saying, & which hasn't been deemed suitable for translation .
I'm reminded of the time when Mataji was giving satsang in one of those church halls in London, with Charanand doing the simultaneous translation. He was saying........'such joy, such bliss, is in this holy nollidge etc etc'............but to someone in the audience who understood Hindi, she was saying......'give, give, give everything, take off your watches & give them to him'. The fact that one never got through is maybe the reason she was always screeching & looking pissed off, heh, heh.
Dissembling is in their blood, & I'm sure if it wasn't for the ubiquity of camera phones, he might yet have been seen there wearing a toga thing like his dad, & waving his befluted arms about.
I know what you mean about the 'meaning' of the story. Superficially it could be a Hinduised version of the Parable of the Talents, which makes one wonder about the origin of these little fables & how old they are. Not very, would be my guess, but I'm not an expert in comparative literature.
What is certain is that all this mixing up of European & Eastern culture which has been going on for the last 300+ yrs leads to a great deal of confusion, especially when it isn't admitted, which reminds me of the story of the guy who went to the Indian restaurant, 'A Taste of the Raj', & was very surprised when the waiter hit him with a stick & told him to build a complicated railway system.........
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I'm reminded of the time when Mataji was giving satsang in one of those church halls in London, with Charanand doing the simultaneous translation. He was saying........'such joy, such bliss, is in this holy nollidge etc etc'............but to someone in the audience who understood Hindi, she was saying......'give, give, give everything, take off your watches & give them to him'. The fact that one never got through is maybe the reason she was always screeching & looking pissed off, heh, heh. I really wish I had been introduced to Knowledge and Maharaji during the Mata Ji years. I absolutely know I would have run so far in the opposite direction of the Rawats, it isn't even funny. Everything I've ever heard or read about Mata Ji has been such a turn off to me, and I know her nuts didn't fall far from the tree. Charanand is such a miserable excuse for a human being. I despise him and people like him. He never had the stuff it makes to create a life of his own, like a real man should, and worse, Charanand made it his career to mislead everyone in his path to worship and give up their lives to a conman.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 16:10:32
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I really wish I had been introduced to Knowledge
and Maharaji during the Mata Ji years. I absolutely know I would have
run so far in the opposite direction of the Rawats, it isn't even
funny.
I know, or I think I do, that I would never have got into it from scratch later on.
I once gave 'inspired' satsang to an American psycho-damaged Vietnam vet I met & took to a prog in London. He freaked completely.........Mishler, Dettmers, Donner & others, seemed like a solid wall of them, were standing behind GMJ, wearing identical black suits & the guy said, ''these are CIA goons here, what is this, what's going on, I have to get out of here''.
I saw what he meant, but as I had the holy nollidge I disregarded it as an illusion. That would've been around 1975.
Nah, you'd've been a shoe in a few yrs earlier. No long waits for initiation, no necessity to really 'understand' much beforehand, just the promise of the Beatific Vision which will solve all problems. Mata Ji was just a sideshow to the main man when he couldn't be bothered to turn up, & no-one knew what she was saying anyway.
You're right about Charanand though; 'a smiling man with a bad reputation', to paraphrase Shakespeare, even though he's managed to keep his reputation even more hidden from the public eye than that of his master.
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>I know what you mean about the 'meaning' of the story. Superficially it could be a Hinduised version of the Parable of the Talents<Since we now have it on good authority (Lovejoy, LP) that rawat remembers his time as Jesus (the crucifixion didn't hurt) this latest story was probably just a flashback to an earlier sermon he gave. rgj
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Wasn't it Krishna (Remember him? The blue guy with six arms.) who said that the perfect master remembers all his past lives. It's kind of a pity that rawat hasn't said more about his time as Mohammed.
Not that I'd want to send any quotes to rawat's local mosque or anything like that.
The only quote I could find on the page linked was that, "Mohammed came". Dunno whether that qualifies as sacrilegious.
rgj
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I'm obviously not a very smiley person.................don't know how to put them in the subject line ........never mind, eh.
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or those extra large ones.
At one stage I thought I had it worked out - click in the little circle and it will appear on the subject line (oh well I'm sure it worked once) or drag the smiley face into the text box, which does work.
Never mind indeed MrD - plenty of smiles happen from reading your posts.
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Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 13:57:01
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You explained my thoughts exacly, rgi, except you said it in far fewer words than I would have used.  He's so transparent. Somewhere in Rawat's subconscious mind he has to justify his ripping off thousands and thousands of people throughout his life for their "gold," but he doesn't even have the presence of mind and critical/rational thinking ability to realize that what he says is so screwed up. At best, he spouts his usual truisms, but he can't even keep those straight in his mind long enough to sound coherent. I think Maharaji was abolutely correct when he used to say or imply that he was a example of a perfect devotee. Now that's a standard anyone can do without.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Mar 21, 2007, 16:01:52
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One wonders how Prem Rawat knows what "everyone" is doing, about how "everyone" is looking for "something" (what vacuous garbage). But how does he know that? What in his life gives him such insight into other people to make these universal statements? How is he qualified to say that?
Modified by Joe at Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 19:22:43
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Here's some old Prem Rawat talk from the 70's. Divine Times stuff.
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Apparently his followers do.
"If it will change then how can it be real?"
I've asked the same question myself, many times.
Modified by Lp at Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 03:00:12
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Hi LP, Just because things change doesn't mean it isn't real. That is the nature of time. Unless you don't want to believe in time, space and matter or the known universe. Time is meant to be moving. Past, present, & future. Then we have to ask ourselves is time real? What is beyond time? It's the same kinda question about space. What is beyond that? And are the three dimensions about space true? And then we have to ask ourselves the question about matter, energy, and it's effect within this time and space. Will it change? Is this real or is god something more than that? As far as I know that is big enough in my opinion to be considered something that people like to label god. Although I don't like that word or term. BTW. Prem Rawat has nothing to do with this topic. He is godless IMHO. Things can change & still be REAL depending upon how you look at it. You ask hard questions LP... What do you think? Can reality change? Lovely to see you again my friend. ( Moody Blues) and me.
Modified by Nomorefootkissing at Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 04:23:27
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It's an interesting point that has arisen. You also ask interesting questions.
First by his own definition, the fact that the Rawat changes makes his projected image seem less real to me, especially as it contrasts with his own rhetorical question/statement above, which I was once taken in by. And particularly since based upon his encrypted, barbed and poisonous logic I then began to diss the known Universe as unreal and take on the burden of living for him and his "message" as if he and his "self-synonymous" knowledge were all that was real.
On the other hand, (not to quote Lennon and McCartney and say "nothing is real") ("and nothing to get hung about"), as far as I'm concerned; the changing Universe, with its dimensions, space, etc... is real.
And feelings, (I feel,) are also real: though they too: change. Because they only occur in life and in living things which change, as far as I'm concerned they share that reality as real micro-universes. (though still "nothing to get hung about" Problems seem to arise when we label one part of the known Universe as more real than another: (same as for important etc.).
Things are real if they are a part of Reality, but not if they masquerade as The Only Reality, while declaring everything else in the known Universe unreal: not when they are, in fact, in substance, that masquerade.
The clearer it seems to me: the more confused I be.
Suffice it to say that the changing promises: of one who lies and manipulates historically recorded facts:- changes his name and cynically uses his fellow human beings in order to gain material profit or devotional obedience in surrender to his personal self: (in exchange for some yoga techniques that are freely available, from a variety of sources); and later denies it; while still living in the luxury of those profits: taken/given simply because he believes and manages to convince a faithful few that he is, mystically somehow connected - is, in fact, these 4 yoga techniques:- those changing promises are not real.
Nor are the heavens, dreams of enlightenment or bliss he fosters in the imaginations of his converts, somehow, with his meaningless diatribe and inane examples:- real.
But changing Nature, The World, the Universe:- certainly a large part of our reality I'd say. And no matter how infinitesimally tiny a part of Its Reality we are: we share That Reality. None more: none less.
Good to see you again my friend(s). / \
Lone pine (on the skyline)
Modified by Lp at Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 10:44:33
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First by his own definition, the fact that the Rawat changes makes his projected image seem less real to me, especially as it contrasts with his own rhetorical question/statement above, which I was once taken in by. And particularly since based upon his encrypted, barbed and poisonous logic I then began to diss the known Universe as unreal and take on the burden of living for him and his "message" as if he and his "self-synonymous" knowledge were all that was real. It's not just that he has changed his message/name/image again and again, it is the transparency of the BS that underlies and motivates these changes. Karen
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In pilotage, one radio beacon (VOR) (he'd know) won't give enough info. but with several able to get fixes on several points at once, the total picture appears.
Holograms use several laser sources and where they intersect a 3d image appears.
In his early days we didn't see through the image. But his several images give us a picture as you say of the underlying motivations and lies to obtain his desired ends.
Now suddenly his true character almost phosphoresces as if seen through night vision lenses, where the several superficially contrasting, yet sinisterly familiar images converge.
Some faithful premies clearly seem to have managed to perceive a continuity through out all these changes which does not present any conflict in their sense of integrity or line of understanding underlying his message over 40 years but we might better call it blind and deaf to anything but his will. Unable to see these things or hear of them.
Lp
Modified by Lp at Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 15:44:57
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It was a real shock to read the old satsangs on epo. I was quite bewildered as to how I could have forgotten what it was about in the first place.
Why had I forgotten so much if it was all supposed to be the same anyway. It's not like I have a bad memory.
He plays his game of Simon Says and the 'leave no room for doubt' premies follow his words.
And exactly as you say, now his slip is showing. But the poor old whatever they call themselves these days does not dare look at it.
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Hi Lp, You said this... "And particularly since based upon his encrypted, barbed and poisonous logic I then began to diss the known Universe as unreal and take on the burden of living for him and his "message" as if he and his "self-synonymous" knowledge were all that was real." I can relate to what you said here, because I too began to diss the known universe as unreal. I think what caught me back then was the talk about our minds being finite and that in order to know something infinite we had surrender our minds to IT because you can't fit infinity into something finite. It sounded logical and even reasonable to me back then. That was part of the bait that got me involved in the first place, plus the idea that only the Living Perfect Master could show me this. The whole question of what is Real can be a tough nut to crack. Someone who is 'tripping their brains out' on acid and is seeing things melt, is that real? Not really, but for them it is. It's the same way with the Premies I think. Are they having a wonderful blissful experience? Sure why not, for some of them this is totally real and no one can tell them any different. I felt the same way about it too once until I woke up. Feelings have everything to do with the quality of our thoughts and that's why it is important to always think the best thoughts we can. The thing that bothered me most about following Prem Rawat was how he always demonized our minds. Sure a mind can be evil but to say that the mind is only that and nothing more isn't right. This same mind is capable of kindness, compassion, love, and understanding to ourselves and others around us. That is what Prem Rawat should be talking about and come clean about the past when he told us, He was The Lord All Powerful. Not to mention all the other lies he has told everyone. Sad but true. In the previous post I said that Prem Rawat is godless which wasn't very nice of me. Maybe a better way to put it is that Prem Rawat is clueless. Because he doesn't seem to care about those who once loved him and gave their everything to him. It's easier for him to just call us names and label us as a hate group. That is not my idea of a worthwhile master. Prem Rawat is a greedy and selfish man and I think that is the real truth. I hope this clears up some of the confusion. Don't be so hard on yourself. Love and Best Thoughts to you.
Modified by Nomorefootkissing at Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 03:15:51
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By Rawat's definition HE isn't real, because he has changed so much, his ideology isn't real either because it has changed, too. But it is just idiocy to say that something isn't "real" because it changes. This is another of those stupid, universal statements Rawat makes, that only has any validity if you already have faith that what he is saying is the wisdom of the ages. To any objective analysis, it falls apart. The problem with premies is they never question the underlying assumptions that Rawat keeps throwing out. It's easier not to, although I think premies do not realize the damage they do to themselves by not doing so.
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"The problem with premies is they never question the underlying assumptions that Rawat keeps throwing out."
Makes me wonder how often his points have been made through underlying assumptions. It seems now in retrospect that this was an often and sometimes skillfully used technique which became one of the mission's stocks in trade.
Things like: "Even if the techs. are interesting that doesn't make him the LotU." never occurred to us to ask, it was already assumed, as with "if it changes it's not real".
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His followers would suggest that whatever changes Rawat goes through, he is always pointing to the same central thing, 'knowledge'.
But he IS knowledge....
I don't think logic has much to do with it.
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They all say the same thing. God has to be all those omni things ya know.
Including omnipresent for all time. And he has to be so omni everything he's changeless.
But I guess when you're not just a priest but satguru himself it gets even sillier.
No honestly greater than god? What the heck could that be, omniscient plus he knows where he left his socks?
No wonder we didn't think too much.
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Guru is Greater than God because He reveals God. Sure but remember that the God that the Guru Maharaji reveals is a very small god and the way to have it revealed is by meditating on your breath because according to early DLM theology God was the energy that is keeping you alive and as far as I could tell I had only felt what I imagined was a very small part of that energy. Now Rawat would just put the blame on me and say "You just worshipped the Gold I gave you instead of using it" or "You filthy, disgusting scientist, you just thought about and wrote about the gold I gave you and that's why you didn't experience God when I used to call it God and Inner Peace or whatever I call it now. That's why my students now say Prem Rawat is Greater than Inner Peace because He reveals Inner Peace!"
I know I had to have more self confidence than I actually had to decide the fault is not mine but Rawat's. Luckily way back in the 70's there were specific predictions made by premies and even Premmy Himself about the effects of this practice and as they did not manifest in any of the premies I knew I was able to overcome my not having enough self confidence and blew him off anyway.
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Yes that's right, I remember the phrase - 'the energy that is keeping you alive' and the kid in the krishna costume who knows that the real use for gold is making toilet seats for your airplane.
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Okay so Buddha is still gaining devotees by the handful, we now have a 20ft statue of him in the gardens of the crystal palace and theres a bunch of monks somewhere round here who will teach you how to make a monks travelling hat amongst other things like making pictures one grain of sand at a time.
But a growing number of people are inclined to tell you they're god. To which the correct response is yeah me too.
Drives me nuts. Go fix the sock drawer of the universe then I feel like saying. But I know the pitying she doesn't get it look I'd get.
So pretty soon we get down to the basis of this statement, which is by any other name a statement of autonomy. And we can agree it is experienced on an individual skin contained basis.
So what's my problem with the I am god statement?
I don't wish to attempt to wield such autocratic powers over myself.
Plus it's all the history, we've gone from worrying whether the god of rain has got it in for us to worrying whether the god of fertility has got it in for us to worrying whether the one god of everything has got it in for us. Good grief. Do I want to start worrying whether the god of me has got it in for me?
Look, I do suspect my father had some influence in the choosing of my name - it's never felt quite right. But it's the name on my birth certificate and unless otherwise involved, I do answer to it. It has history and relationship.
And I'd rather call myself lesley than god.
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you wouldn't care about the pitying "Lesley doesn't get it looks" so I think they're wrong. At least premies don't think they're God so you should be OK hanging out with them and I'm pretty sure even if Rawat starts telling them they are Gods, they'll believe, it but they won't include you. Aren't premies wonderful?
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would I be the devil too?
Actually I get on quite well with the I am god crew - we're quite close really.
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Maybe Rawat doesn't acknowledge that change is real because he's only interested in bills, preferably large denominations. Kabir
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Hi Joe,
May I suggest that Maharaji's qualifications consisted
the desires of his followers to say these things? I don't
want to go too far with this thought because some
ex-premies were surely legitimate victims for
a variety of reasons. But it seems to me that my
memories of you were definitely not that of a
brainwashed cultist. May I ask if at one time in
your life, fullfillment consisted of hearing Maharaji
talk like that? I think a lot of premies wanted
him to speak this way. Granted you have changed
greatly since then. But does that mean that someone
else must have victimized you to have ever felt
that way?
Best Regards,
Sean
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Sean,As a premie I loved to hear Maharaji being very clear about the purpose of life, and who he was. Wembley 1978, Holi in Malaga 1978, and some of the Kissimee satsangs come to mind. By telling us that Guru Maharaj Ji was everything, and that my puspose was to dedicate my life to him, he removed all doubt from my mind, and I was enraptured in adoration and worship of him. But don't you think his responsibility as my teacher was to speak the truth? If he was speaking the truth then, then he and all premies who publicly speak for him are lying now. If he was lying then, then he should be hauled before the court of public opinion and roundly condemned for deliberately misleading so many impressionable young people and ruining many lives. Don't you agree? John.
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Well said JHB.I would have never, never did all I did in the name of devi=otion if he has not "hammered" in my brain, brainwashing me to believe I NEEDED TO FOLLOW HIS AGYA. And his AGYA/ORDER is not just a concept of the 70's; Prem Rawat, AKA, Guru Maharaji, Maharaj Ji, Maharaji, The LOrd of the Universe, The Savior, The Master, etc. said up until Nov. 99 THAT DEVOTEES WERE TO FOLLOW HIS ORDERS! That if he said jump, we were to ask, how far? I accusse Prem Rawat of ruining my life up until the time I left. I find him 100% responsible and of that, his culpability, he cannot escape. He is guilty as charged in the open public opinion of his ex-followers. Silvia
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I just don't accept that premise that he had to be lying
either then or now, so I guess I can't agree. The idea
I was trying to express to Joe was that Maharaji and the
premies were and are in a kind of partnership; we both
respond to each other's expectations, feelings, etc. It
seems to me that you said it yourself in your post, "I was
enraptured in adoration and worship of him.". How could
he not respond to that?
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Maybe you can be a little more specific Sean for me. There's no doubt that Prem Rawat claimed to be an avatar and that the only way to treat him was complete and total worship and we don't even need to use stale old words on a page from Divine Light Mission magazines and books, there are videos of him on Youtube saying those very things.
Now it's one thing to just stop saying things like that publicly but then to claim he never said anything like that and that people who say he did are deluded haters and members of a "hate group" really does seem to show that there has to be some deceit in there. Surely he and all the current premies (that small group left of maybe 10% of everybody who had "Knowlege revealed" couldn't have completely forgotten it could they? Sure, all their magazines and books were burnt back in the early 1980's but every speech he ever made has been recorded and stored and are being transferred to digital media and donations for that are requested so if they need to someone can check to see if the "hate group" members aren't telling the truth.
Oh do you personally remember? Do you think those of us who post here are lying about it? Now He might have had to respond to JHB's adoration and worship of him but he could have done it in other ways than requesting he donate all his worldly goods so that Rawat could live in unbelievable luxury in Malibu. He could have gone to JHB's home and gently embraced him and taken the cloak off his own back and given it to JHB. He could have got down off the thrones he insisted were built and walked among the premies, talking to them and learning from them and educating himself. That is a partnership as I see it, not hiding himself away except when he was on a stage and demanding planes and luxury automobiles.
But maybe I've got it all wrong.
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So, you suggest that Rawat just said we were supposed to surrender our lives to him because we wanted him to say it. That's insane. I, for one, looked to him to tell me what I was supposed to believe and do with my life, because I believed he was the perfect master. Period. It wasn't that I wanted him to say that stuff, it wasn't even an issue of what I wanted, it was what he wanted. That's what surrender means. In fact, I was kind of freaked out by all the surrender and devotion crap, but I also believed Rawat that those feelings and thoughts were just my evil mind and I only listened to it at my peril. So, I learned to repress those thoughts. As for whether I was a "brainswashed cultist" when you knew me, let me just say that I was definitely in a cult, and I definitely used the mind control that I just referenced in the above paragraph which is a characteristic of a cult. I wouldn't use the word "brainwashed" because that implies some kind of forced indoctrination, which wasn't the case in the Rawat cult. I admit I actively participated in my own programming. I wanted to believe it, but that doesn't diminish the fact that it was still a cult, and what Maharaji was saying to me (about devotion and surrender and related) was a big, fat lie, and something that was very damaging to me.
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"Women put a mirror in their purse. Boys put their compass in their pocket." Ok, maybe some women put a mirror in their purse, but "boys put their compass in the pocket"??? Really? I have six brothers and not one of them carries a compass --- lol!!!
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"I have six brothers and not one of them carries a compass --- lol!!! "
I thought the same thing, except it's seven brothers. They'd think it was goofy to need a compass to know where you are.
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I just cannot get over how awful Rawat looks. This attached photo is straight off the innerlink site and doubled in size. What the original must have looked like before it was cropped cleaned up and resized real small to obscure the details I don't know but those photos from last year in Amaroo, apparently taken by an amateur premie, give a clue.
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He really looks unhealthy, for one thing. And he looks a lot older than his actual age. I think all that puffiness in his face and around his eyes is a symptom of drinking a lot of hooch over the course of his life. Smoking also makes you look older and your skin to look unhealthy, so all those Marlboros have also taken their toll. Not to mention how little exercise he gets. And those jowells just go on for days. As he gets even older, the prognosis for vastly increased ugliness is not promising.
Modified by Joe at Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 19:14:39
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And his own curse, always with him, diproportionateness:
(Not to say it does not have its charms in the undeveloped,)
Seems now to be taking holidays in other regions of himself.
A meandering disproportion wanders unsettled around his form
Uncertain where to stretch: or where to shrink next.
Is there no proportion commonally owned by ordinary women and men
He would share? That he changes in shape thus before our eyes? Our minds?
Is it to blow our concepts? That the world is real? A miraculous mirage?
And he, at once, all that: and a shape shifting master magician whose
Mantle is slowly but surely falling inward upon the void within?
Modified by Lp at Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 21:40:32
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As my wise old mum says, when you are young, you have the face God gives you, but as you age you get the face you earn. UGLINA!
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No comment on this one - make your own comparisons..... 
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Here's an old picture of Prem Rawat... back when he was much younger. He was even ugly back then, mainly because of his greedy lies. What is the definition of awfull? Answer.. Bilking others for their money!
Modified by Nomorefootkissing at Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 02:51:42
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Is that his darshan line sneeky side glance, while his internal cash register ticks over; look?
Or his "Here comes that guy who adjusts the mic and only makes it worse, but ' must just sit here and try to look like a patient master," look?
Modified by Lp at Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 09:43:19
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Here's a picture of Prem Rawat after telling us "This world is going nuts." On Stage at Essen, Germany... August 29, 1975.
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This is from Prem Rawat's talk called... "Dr. Lord's Circus" at the Guru Puja Festival, Caracas, Venezuela, July 23, 1975. (Divine Times)
Modified by Nomorefootkissing at Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 04:21:07
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is the same one who is in the photograph. He puts it in every way round he can think of but to plainly say: "I'm it, I'm God, and everything elso too."
How can he and every premie just smile full of confidence and self assuredness and say that he never said that! He never meant that! I've heard him and watched him say words to that effect thousands of times. And everybody else said it even more times.
This perplexes me. Blindness is possible through belief in seeing something else.
There seems to be a group lock in place on the minds of followers. This, in order to make sure it is in place, I assume is the reason it takes so long to get the "knowledge" these days. It is useless to the mission unless this lock is installed first. Otherwise the 4 techs. would take minutes to impart.
Modified by Lp at Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 08:14:53
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