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Hi ShelaghWhat I'm interested in now is what role intuition plays in my life. Can I trust my intuitions? I no longer trust my reason on its own, nor my intuition on its own. Both on their own can, and frequently do, lead me astray. When reason is not grounded in anything other than itself, it can spin you all over the place - Kant, and all philosophy based on his thinking, is rooted in this insight: how ungrounded reason leads to sketpicism (how do I know I am not just a brain in a vat?), relativism (since there is no rational ground for preferring anything over anything else, all is relative) and absolutism (there must be a supreme God because otherwise nothing would make sense). But intuition is the same. When I get a feeling seemingly out of nowhere, telling me to do something, is it really some deep inner wisdom nudging me, or merely some stray thought, or the fact that I have got indigestion! The most practical way, for me, is to not treat them both as opposites, like enemies almost. When I reason, I check into my whole body-feel, my sense of the situation I am in, and see if my nonconscious is in agreement, or at least neutral. Likewise, when I get some intuition, I bring my conceptual thinking process into the mix, reason about it and see how that works. It is like a zig-zag between the two: reason checks on intuition and has its say, then intuition has a chance to speak back, then reason respond, etc. If only I had acted this way when dealing with my intuitions about Maharaji! Yes, he was the Lord etc, and I was convinced, but only because I listened to my intuition. Reason was characterised as 'doubt' by Maharaji, and the reasoning faculty the 'doubtmaker'. So like I say, I don't trust either intuition or reason on their own, but together they make a good team. That's my two cents. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Hi Mike! And thanks for your response. After reading it, I suddenly flashed on the possibility that my reasoning powers were damaged by the premie trip as well! I certainly agree that both need to be fully functional and interactive! What I am probably looking for is a painless arrival at "the Truth" with no more mistakes, blunders, idiocy, games, self-deceptions, or anything like that! But I'm beginning to suspect that there's no such thing as mistake-free, pain-free living. I AM going to learn through my own first-hand experience, darn it! Oh well, there's always those nice hot cups of tea and chocolate for consolation. But I will probably worry this bone again. Anyone else with any insights? Thanks Mike! Shelagh
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What I am probably looking for is a painless arrival at "the Truth" with no more mistakes, blunders, idiocy, games, self-deceptions, or anything like that! But I'm beginning to suspect that there's no such thing as mistake-free, pain-free living. I AM going to learn through my own first-hand experience, darn it!Yes, darn it indeed! No mistake-free, pain-free living? Aw shucks. Actually, it is worse even than that, I think: even the *attempt* to take a royal road to mistake-free and pain-free living is itself a huge mistake with much concomitant pain. Witness our time with Maharaji. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Hi Shelagh, I agree, this is a really interesting discussion and gets to the heart of what originally attracted me to the Knowledge. I like what Mike has to say about the balance between reason and intuition and his reference to Kant. In Kant`s view, reason inevitably reaches for what it cannot grasp. It is then that sensible intuition steps in... and guides our actions. 
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Hello Milarepa I used Google to obtain the Tibetan so don't think I can write it  This border between reason and intuition appears to correspond to the border between our conscious and subconscious mind. Over the years I have often had to collect data (often cold on a subject of which I knew nothing), analyse the information and write a report. After considering all the data my brain would be like a kaleidoscope, a complete state of chaos that would make no sense of the data. Then at the very point when the task would seem impossible a thread would begin to appear and the structure gain momentum until eventually the report was complete. Maybe intuition is similar. That underneath the kaeidoscope of information, connections are being made at the unconscious level that eventually force their way into the conscious. The process was always stopped in its tracks as a premie though as I tried to "leave no room for doubt in my mind". I wished I had trusted my intuition more because it appears to have had sound reasoning behind it once I let the issues surface and considered them rationally.
Modified by MarkT at Fri, Dec 16, 2005, 17:57:25
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Consider these experiments in the link below.
My feeling is that intuition is unreliable, but I can't prove it logically.
Related link: experiments
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Yes, but allowing the issues raised intuitively to be then reasoned means I still rely on sound reasoning to make descisions. Instead of ignoring the doubts that were always arising intuitively, I felt I gained greater understanding when I considered them fully instead.
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Hi MarkT! Your post reminded me of the literature that came out on "left brain, right brain" modalities that was such a breakthrough in understanding creativity in the 80's (maybe earlier?). I have been getting a lot of interesting and inspirational ideas for my writing from a book called "Writing the Natural Way" by Gabriela Lusser Rico. She refers to the right brain as the "design mind" because it naturally "thinks" in patterns, where the left brain operates in logical ways where a "sign" (a word or a symbol) refers to one specific thing. Obviously both are needed in any artistic endeavour, but what's so liberating about her method is the clustering technique, where you just allow a certain word or image to drop into your subconscious and make it's own ripples. You hint at that, Mark, with your kaleidoscope image (seemingly unrelated fragments but capable of producing coherent, beautiful patterns). Once you have this "seed" for clustering on a page, you will almost inevitably see a connecting thread, and that's when you can call on your "sign mind" (or editor) to shape the thing in more meaningful ways. Maybe there's some correlation here between intuition and rationality here too? Also, what this all tells me is that perhaps the search for "truth" isn't exactly it, after all--but more a search for pattern or meaning? How does this relate to my premie days? I was looking for meaning in my life, definitely. A focus, a purpose, something that pulled all the seemingly disparate things together. All of Rawat's talk about "meaning", "purpose", "focus" etc. was of course quite a pull! It seemed like the thing that made the most sense at the time! But I also look for some coherence between what a person says and what a person DOES--and here's where, inevitably, I had to part company with the "knowledge" trip. I think it DOES matter what a person does, once they have set themselves up as a teacher about the quality of life! (I don't worry too much about what writing teachers do, except that they had better be very good writers!) Thanks for your responses to this topic, everyone! It's fun and important to explore these issue and ideas, and in a free country, we can! ~Shelagh
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That is fascinating regarding the two sides of the brain, one for the more creative and the other for logic. It also echoes what is within the article 13 posted the link to. Your explanation does seem to describe the process I referred to and experienced. What may be of further interest in the subject may be to consider the artistic expression of the surrealist movement which was greatly affected by the writing of Sigmund Freud and in particular his work entitled Gradiva. Initially, the surrealist artists produced works in the automatist style in which images were allowed to spring from the subconscious but no further meaning would be attached to them. What then developed was the verdic or symbolic surrealist movement with such members as Dali who used the conscious mind to construct the painting with images that represented the subconscious and employing themes such as juxtaposition, incongruity and metamorphosis. The symbolic surrealists allowed further meaning to be attached to images in contrast to the automatists. Dali being the paradoxical personality of neurotic megalomaniac that he was took several of his paintings to London for Freud to comment on. Freud stated that Dali had succeeded in painting the subconscious and that no further analysis was required but that he personally preferred paintings in which the subconscious was a mystery to be discovered rather than being laid bare. It would seem that we are a mix of the creative and logical, the conscious and subconscious but our greatest expression occurs when we use them in conjunction as you say. Intuition would still appear to be an enigmatic function at our disposal that we don't always follow although it is surprising how many times I have ignored it only to decide later that I should not have. I had doubts for many years in regard of maharaji but supressed those "feelings". I agree too that once someone has described themselves as having mastered perfection that their actions and lifestyle should reflect that, otherwise what is the point of pursuing it in the first place.
Modified by MarkT at Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 14:46:41
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Hi, Mike, I think this is well said. One's first encounter with Maharajism is much about having to reject all earlier mechanisms of evaluating experience and thereafter just taking stuff on face value, often from quite stronger personalities. This was certainly true back in the early 70s when I became involved, but I have no knowledge of how things are nowadays. I spent a largely miserable decade in the 70s feeling myself between two worlds - the outside one where good sense and reason applied, and the inside one, in which reason had no place, or had become totally subservient to the most simplistic tasks such as organising jumbling, for some greater (God-given) Good. I was rescued from this particular nightmare by a good woman who I introduced to Knowledge, and was knocked back by Anne Johnson because she still smoked cigarettes occasionally (she decamped at this point). However, she left me a legacy of always questioning things from an emotional or intuitive point of view. She hadn't been a Christian or anything like this, but just a fine grounded person. Thereafter, I again used to process any information re Maharaji and the org through my own filter of what felt OK, and intellectually felt reasonable enough, and there was much latitude from where I was standing for ages. The point about Maharajism is to blur the distinction between what comes from our own natural consciousness within and what is gifted by the Master. The Master becomes grafted onto our natural sensitivities such that these deep and natural areas become a gift from him. A loop is established in which even the free use of conscience is granted by the Master. Everything is passed through this closed filter. One could criticise the non-sequiturs of EV from a sensible and intuitive point of view because Maharaji was there along with you, being a rebel with you against all the stuff you found dumb and foolish. Without the information available from EPO, it was ongoingly possible to feel that any dissociative stuff was down to dumb or extremist personalities. Over the years of the 80s and to date, I would say that this situation probably still applies - a sense of abandoning reason and sense, in order to have a good 'experience'. The constant is to forsake good reason to be vouchsafed some excellent experience. The great irony is that sometimes such an experience is had. One may attend a video event and sometimes be blown out. I know people who spend their whole lives breathing deeply and constricting their rational minds to continue this high at all costs. The basic problem is a guru or teacher latching onto our natural reactions and adopting them as his own gift. I don't rule out some people being able to energise us in some way - being able to open us up in some way to what is naturally there. I suspect this has been true for aeons, but as for this belonging to them - this is basically the greatest heresy of all time. Seeing Prem as he actually is, one could be very deeply disturbed. However, if one has a good handle on the mechanisms inside - how what is there is true and valid irrespective of any teacher or outside interested party - one can possibly IMO still use meditation for example to still ourselves into feeling more real and intuitive. Anthony
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Nice post, Anthony! THanks for that. Honestly, I sometimes ask myself if goodwill (for example, the goodwill of many people here) isn't really far superior to anything! ~Shelagh
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If a person's free will has been stolen, i.e.they have been brainwashed in any way, doesn't that negate the integrity of one's intuition? I am referring not just to rawat, but to life in a very mechanized culture, with deep conditioning grooves to keep the "herds" moving in an intended direction for the benefit of the "masters" of whatever society we find ourselves in. It takes a lot of self examination to ferret out who's really pulling the strings of our consciousness. Who here doesn't watch TV? I didn't for about 5 years. I moved in with my mom a couple of years ago, and slid right back into the mind numbing, brainwashing shit. I look at intuition and think, who is benefiting from what I am feeling or desiring? What actions are being prompted by my intuition? Who/what is the motivator? What selfish desires am I wanting to go after? Is there any part of these desires that has been manufactured by the commercial culture in which I am immersed? This may be very cynical and jaded. If so, I think that perspective comes out of having been indoctrinated into a cult. I feel like I really have to examine all my feelings and motives very carefully. That really sucks. I'd like to be able to relax into my "inner child," but I am afraid of being spiritually raped again. I think many of us followed rawat out of our intuition that we would be " saved." We were all wrong. This took a big chunk out of my life. Like the WHO sang..."We won't get fooled again!" Karen
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"It takes a lot of self examination to ferret out who's really pulling the strings of our consciousness" That is really such a good statement to read first thing in the morn.. And the key fact too is that you have to evaluate with the very consciousness that is under evaluation! Ferreting out, winnowing, refining, differentiating, and general Sherlock Holmesing is what it is. No wonder I have always been tempted to lunge for spectacular answer asap. Hence my 25 year stretch in the Maha mire Reason does have its advantages now I am older and less inclined to want to be a purveyor of mighty solutions. Thinking throws up errors and these I believe point toward the possibility of freedom. Being mentally wrong shows that at least your cognitional processes are not mechanically welded into a implacable system of cause and effect;you can be actually in a wrong relationship with the world and survive. The thing about intuition is when I use it as a basis for my subsequent action (morality?). whatever the practical outcome is, I feel true afterwards. If I follow a conceptualised, well worn course of action, even if it gains public approval ( a major motive for me) I feel ashamed afterwards. Ashamed! Can you believe it! Anyway. Thanks for this thread. Love Bryn
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Hi Karen! Great post! Thanks for that. I think you are right, that "intuition" is probably affected to some degree by our culture, history and current milieu too. But I sense that it's strong enough to move us forward and be able to transcend those things to some degree, too. I feel a very powerful push within me to keep moving forward in my life, but whether or not I'm actually getting somewhere is another story! I'm perfectly capable of staying "stuck" with something for a while (21 years as a premie!) and untold numbers of years in the wrong relationships, too! There's that "comfort zone" thing that keeps me from taking risks and adventuring, too. But once I'm ready to make a leap, I can and sometimes have--and all in all, I have to say it's brought me to a better place--especially if I'm willing to look at what I was once enmeshed with, and why, and not spend too much time beating myself up about it! We're learning about ourselves! And isn't it ironic--but I have learned so much about myself since LEAVING Rawat! About the "inner child"--I know, some people will groan when they hear this phrase--I personally think the kid in us is a lot healthier and on target about things than the adult often is! But it takes time to trust that if you happen to have had a very traumatic childhood where your every instinct and feeling was squashed by the scared "giants" around you! To quote from The Who--the kids are all right! Shelagh, no longer just another brick in the wall
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Hi Shelagh, As can be expected the matter of intuition and truth was a big subject among the former followers of Sathya Sai Baba too. One of those former followers, Dennis Hanisch, wrote, and I agree with him, that intuition works better in subjects in which one is not emotionally involved and it is not distorted by wishful thinking. And of course, gurus like SSB and Maharaji with their promises and offers play on our emotions. Loves makes blind, as the saying goes. Another thing, which I also wrote at Wikipedia is that intuition is often formed by previous experiences. Intuition is something immediate and spontaneous, but it is often unconsciously based on previous experiences. An example, to which, I think John can relate to, is intuition in chess that without a doubt is formed by previous experiences (successes and failures). And how much experience does the average person have with assessing a guru? Nothing. To summarize it, intuition in assessing a guru is likely to be of little value for the average person. Andries
Related link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuition
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The problem really is the Universe - so much of it is just so 'counter intuitive' ! Nik
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Which reminds me of an encounter a friend of mine had with his neighbour, a man in his 80's I think.
The neighbour was spraying his roses with some deadly chemical in an effort to get rid of the greenfly. My friend suggested he might use something that was greener.
'Why would I want to do that?' asked the old man.
'Because it is better for the environment'
'The environment?' he says, '- that's where the buggers is coming from!'
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Hi Shelag, that is a good question and I agree fully with the point of view that we got submerged to be good premies. That happend to me too, but not generally. The fact that I practiced meditation ( or call it the technics ) made me somehow aware for my personal needs and fears and to act in a way that my situation was quiet okay. But in terms the authority of M. I even tried to surrender my reason and my intuition cause I was convinced that to flow with M only will bring me to real happiness and fullfillment and all other attitude will be following my ego. I defined my reason and my intuition as ego. But I never came forward into clear water, I always found my self wating in muddy water. M and my everyday life brougt me in a inner conflict. In the normal world I did it quiet okay but in M's world I felt like I never will fullfill the standard, I never would be good enough, cause M is so high and pure and I'm so low and unpure, only sometimes I've got a shower of his grace and felt accepted and beloved, so far that was my mental state of mind in my premietimes.
After Amaroo 97 I started to drift away, cause my experience on this piece of land was that we become more and more a cult and never will turn to open structures. For M and his “holy family” was the good part of the land and for us was the dry bushland.
Okay to go back to your question. I try to be aware of my thougths and emotions. I’m still a fan of mindfull breathing, more according to a buddhist teaching, this is helpful for me to be aware of myself, and there is my own authority and some simple moral concept of not hurting someone else and not hurting myself which is the same for my understanding.
For training my intuition I make music this helps me to follow spontanoues ideas, for my reason I have my job were I have to deal with a lot of people. But both things are not seperated. It’s like driving a car, I can’t only follow the rules I need some intuition for staying safe and to react in the best way possible.
After my life as premie, and accepting that I’m alone responsible for all my life it’s again much easier. Sometimes it an easy inner game for me when I go for a walk, because then often I only decide on intuition which direction I go and my reason is that I maybe go for two houres or so. I think we need some kind of training to learn to be aware and to learn to deal in a good way with our heart, mind, body and soul, even if we can’t define this words we use those words to express something. Maybe we as human beings even have a religious dimension, but there starts the trouble again. All in all there seems no easy way out and so far I can’t explain it. The better place for me at least is: I know that I don’t know. Love ….wolfie
Ps. oh god, I forgot the truth, maybe I create truth by being truthfull!!!
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Maybe we as human beings even have a religious dimension, but there starts the trouble again. All in all there seems no easy way out and so far I can’t explain it. The better place for me at least is: I know that I don’t know. I like this wolfie. I remember someone once said... "not knowing is the most intimate" ... and I couldn`t figure out what this meant, though it really intrigued me and I`d meditate on the possible meaning. I think I know what it means now.... knowledge comes between us ... but I could be wrong, for I really don`t know!
Modified by Milarepa at Tue, Dec 20, 2005, 04:57:26
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Hi Milarepa! Ah, the wisdom of NOT knowing! I agree--sometimes it is better to just discover things for oneself! That's the real knowing, I suppose--where you've really let the rubber meet the road! I remember a friend recommending a book for me to read (donkey's ages ago!) called The Wisdom of Insecurity. It's all there in the title, but I did my best with the book, I'm sure, because I always did back then. It didn't save me from falling into the Rawat trap though! I guess my soul had a few things to learn that couldn't be book-learnin' ! Rawat himself talked a lot about this "not knowing" business--but I see now that it was for the purpose of then filling up this supposed ignorance with his easy answers! How I hate that I fell for that, but as I said--soul-learnin' to be done here. Best, Shelagh
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Hi Wolfie! And thanks for your response to these issues. It's good to hear so many different "takes" on this, which only goes to show how individual we all are--whatever our common history with Rawat, or our common experiences, just as human beings! I particularly liked the way you put this dilemma for you: But in terms the authority of M. I even tried to surrender my reason and my intuition cause I was convinced that to flow with M only will bring me to real happiness and fullfillment and all other attitude will be following my ego. I defined my reason and my intuition as ego. But I never came forward into clear water, I always found my self wating in muddy water. I liked the bit about being left with the dry bushland at Amaroo, too! Talk about...! Thanks again, Shelagh
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