Imagine Rawat is/was not the leader of EV/DLM
  Archive
Posted by:
JHB ®

01/20/2006, 14:58:07
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




Am anonymous premie, apparently from Australia (a fine country I understand), has been writing to me regarding several threads on this forum. His latest concern is the thread from Hilltop about the Essen satsang. This premie asserts that just because Rawat decided that the International HQ for DLM/EV should be in the USA it doesn't mean he decides/decided everything. I have to say that's true. I'm sure Rawat didn't decide what colour toilet paper should be bought for the Denver HQ. I'm equally sure that Rawat decided pretty much every significant issue affecting DLM/EV from about 1974 to now. I have, amongst my store of Rawat memorabilia, the Frankfurt conference publication from 1976 and there are numerous quotes from Rawat that show that he ran the organisation worldwide. (BTW, I am looking forward to producing my collection in court one day to demonstrate to an impartial judge what a liar Rawat is.)

But this is not what I want to talk about. I want to explore the possibility that EV and premies are speaking the truth when they say that Rawat is not in charge of Elan Vital, because it invites the question, 'If Rawat is not in charge, who is?'.

Of course, the various EV's and similar organisations around the world have, conforming the each country's laws, officials who are responsible for the organisations. What is unclear is how these officials get appointed. To my knowledge there is not a single country where premies vote for the leaders of their country's organisation. So how do they get appointed?

And if they are not voted to their positions by the premies, why do the premies take any notice of their actions? In this scenario it can't be because Rawat approved their appointments as we are assuming that Rawat is not involved. So who is? Is there anyone that the premies will trust to run the organisations?

OK, there are many organisations that are run by volunteers. But regardless of how the volunteers are chosen, I am not aware of any legitimate organisation that does not have some kind of member oversight over the decisions and finances of the organisation. To the best of my knowledge, with any of the Elan Vitals there is none.

So, if Rawat does not run Elan Vital, then who does, and why do the donors to these organisations blindly trust these unelected people with their donations?

John.







Previous Recommend Current page Next

Replies to this message

Simply staggering . . .
Re: Imagine Rawat is/was not the leader of EV/DLM -- JHB Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Dr.wow ®

01/20/2006, 18:31:55
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




. . . the sheer amount of twisting that premies do to protect their sheltered POV.  You mean that Australian premie actually wrote to you protesting what Rawat made clear all by his divine self in Essen - that he is responsible for the decisions made by DLM/Elan Vital?   Sounds like this premie actually bought the EV spin - hook, line and stinker.   Who's in charge indeed.  Do some premies actually believe that EV does anything without the master's direction/approval.  What was he/she hoping that you do - delete the thread?   LOL 







Previous Recommend Current page Next
Mind the gap.
Re: Imagine Rawat is/was not the leader of EV/DLM -- JHB Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
PatD ®

01/20/2006, 21:27:01
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




 I am not aware of any legitimate organisation that does not have some
kind of member oversight over the decisions and finances of the
organisation.


I think I was always vaguely aware that DLM/DUO/EV were pushing the boundaries of legality. That was, in a perverse kind of way, the only plus point of the org for a devotee of the Living Lord such as myself.  Cocking a snook at the conventions whilst being on a mission from God, is a pretty heady combination when one is young & convinced.

Prem Rawat's operation is a classic of the type of criminal organisation ; the Mister Big who uses the law to protect himself, whilst profiting from the illegal activities of those from whom he's separated himself.

Why the Lord of the Universe should've chosen to build a support structure of which Lucky Luciano would've approved, is something he'll have to sort out for himself, now he's just another boring jerk on vanity tv.

How this will play out is anyone's guess, but it's a given that those individuals whose signatures are on whatever documents, won't get any backup from the Boss, if the shit should ever hit the fan.








Previous Recommend Current page Next
Prem, the Godfather mob boss....he even looks the part
Re: Mind the gap. -- PatD Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
karenl ®

01/21/2006, 02:13:29
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin










Previous Recommend Current page Next
He wears the suits and tries to look mean, but imagine him
Re: Prem, the Godfather mob boss....he even looks the part -- karenl Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
hamzen ®

01/21/2006, 05:49:36
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




with the real bad bwoyz.

Gwan Prem, you yardie you






Previous Recommend Current page Next
Re: Imagine Rawat is/was not the leader of EV/DLM
Re: Imagine Rawat is/was not the leader of EV/DLM -- JHB Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nik ®

01/21/2006, 08:05:27
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




>But this is not what I want to talk about. I want to explore the possibility that EV and premies are speaking the truth when they say that Rawat is not in charge of Elan Vital, because it invites the question, 'If Rawat is not in charge, who is ?'.<

An excellent question; comparing how DLM/EV is run with commonly understood norms exposes just how devoid of common integrity Rawat's empire is.

My own view is that Rawat as 'sole trader' has never been an accurate reflection of how DLM/EV worked. I like Pat's comparison with the Mafia - Rawat the Don has depended on his loyal lieutenants to maintain the organisation. Those lieutenants are as culpable as Rawat for the corrupting influence of the Corporation of which they are the board of Management.

>OK, there are many organisations that are run by volunteers. But regardless of how the volunteers are chosen, I am not aware of any legitimate organisation that does not have some kind of member oversight over the decisions and finances of the organisation. To the best of my knowledge, with any of the Elan Vitals there is none.<

In most countries where there is a legal inheritance of English and/or Scottish Law, the tradition of philanthropic (I'm not sure that countries with Roman Law traditions are any better) organisation is primarily non membership, in that sense DLM/EV is not exceptional. In fact 300 years of English 'charity law' has been concerned with the abuses that arise from a system that depends upon a self selecting coterie of trusteeship.

Arguably the most effective philanthropic organisations are those with empowered memberships but this is often an area of consistent tension - organisations such as Green Peace, WWF and the English National Trust have all had long running internal debates about democracy and representation, not all of which have led to satisfactory conclusions.

Differences in legal structures make an overall judgement of the various national Elan Vital's rather difficult - in the specific circumstance of England and Wales, Elan Vital is controlled by its Trustees - it is not really appropriate to identify Trustees as being Volunteers - because the nature of trusteeship means that no one could be employed as a Trustee. Where there is no other provision for membership - the Trustees are the Charity's members. The Trustees in effect own the Charity, are legally responsible for every aspect of its operation and are the legal employers of staff (including staff who work on a volunteer basis.

The power to remove and appoint Trustees of Elan Vital UK is held by the Settlor - that is the entity that set up Elan Vital as a Trust in England and Wales. The Settlor is the Elan Vital Foundation registered in Switzerland - membership of the Elan Vital Foundation is secret. Elan Vital UK provides £500,000 in Charitable funds to EVF every year.

The Trustees of the English/Welsh Elan Vital at January 2005 were:

Roland Peter Klpzig

Susan Gower Robinson

James Shaw

Fredrick Grant

Most religious/philosophical organisations have a recognised membership - in Christian Churches the Congregation has at least a nominal membership status and in Non Conformist traditions very direct claims of ownership.

There were varying degrees of acknowledgement of membership in DLM although no legal entitlement was ever provided in the US or the UK - in Australia the EV constitution specifically defined membership - which was subject to appointment by "Maharaji" - I believe this same provision applied in France, New Zealand and elsewhere.

From 1972 to 1975/6 Rawat was registered as Chief Minister of the Divine Light Mission Church of Denver, Colorado (see Mishler et al). The same tax deal that saw several million dollars of DLM assets pass to Rawat's personal position, also removed Rawat from the legally answerable status of Chief Minister - thus he has successfully avoided the tax problems that saw Hubbard prosecuted and Scientology delisted as a non taxable operation while Hubbard remained alive.

In my view the answer to the question of who runs the corporate agglomerate that is comprised by the various Elan Vitals, TPRF, RVK etc. - is:

"there is an effective board of management that treats Rawat as the sole owner - Rawat sometimes acts as Chairman, sometimes as Chief Executive, sometimes as President - sometimes sitting back letting the board take care of his investments. The board of management has a rather fluid membership - its internal relationships are founded rather as that of Hitler's Gauleiters - hierarchical position is based upon current patronage of the Fuehrer and perceived success in the respective apportioned part of the empire. Whether there is any hope of this highly inappropriate operation ever being exposed to public view, is a question I'm rather pessimistic about - the only thing that will force it will be if premies demand representation and clear demonstration of where their money goes.

Nik

 

 

 

 







Previous Recommend Current page Next
The membership
Re: Re: Imagine Rawat is/was not the leader of EV/DLM -- Nik Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
PatD ®

01/22/2006, 13:40:15
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




.....Whether there is any hope of this highly inappropriate operation ever
being exposed to public view, is a question I'm rather pessimistic
about - the only thing that will force it will be if premies demand
representation and clear demonstration of where their money goes.



....There were varying degrees of acknowledgement of membership in DLM
although no legal entitlement was ever provided in the US or the UK....



If in US/ UK there's no legal definition of who is a member then surely disillusioned followers could reasonably claim to still be members on account of having received the initiation.  If anyone has the time & inclination to take up the representation question with EV(UK) & the Charities Commission on this basis, then it would be interesting to see their respective responses.






Previous Recommend Current page Next
Re: The membership
Re: The membership -- PatD Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nik ®

01/22/2006, 14:46:53
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




 >If anyone has the time & inclination to take up the representation question with EV(UK) & the Charities Commission on this basis, then it would be interesting to see their respective responses.<

Unlike in the US where DLM simply changed its name to Elan Vital, but in all other respects remained the same entity - in the UK DLM was formally dissolved and Elan Vital created as a new entity - although according to PRMI:

http://www.prem-rawat-maharaji.info/index.php?id=34

Between 1993 and 1996 Elan Vital[UK] and The Divine Light Mission[UK] existed in parallel. Following the public revelation of the Jagdeo abuse accusations, Elan Vital[UK] claimed to have had no relationship with DLM[UK], this claim was shown to be false on a number of grounds. The relationship between the two organizations is demonstrated clearly by Elan Vital[UK] having granted £2000 of Charitable funds to DLM[UK] in 1995 and to have paid a £500 tax bill charged to DLM[UK], in 1996. To all intents Elan Vital[UK] is the successor organization to The Divine Light Mission[UK].

Nevertheless, with the UK DLM having not existed as legal entity for ten years establishing membership rights to EV UK seems a very unlikely proposition - could be grounds though for some action against the Trustees of DLM for failing to advise those who may have had a reasonable claim to membership rights that those rights would be lost in the DLM/EV change over.

I too would be very interested to see how a 'former' follower would get on in establishing their continued membership rights of the Elan Vital Church of Denver, that entity having existed for some 32 years.

Nik







Previous Recommend Current page Next
What an interesting question!
Re: Re: The membership -- Nik Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nigel ®

01/22/2006, 14:56:53
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




>I too would be very interested to see how a 'former' follower would get on in establishing their continued membership rights of the Elan Vital Church of Denver, that entity having existed for some 32 years.

Yes indeed, Nik.  If you had enough exes with membership rights, could they somehow effect change at the top?  Vote for a new leader? 

'Ladies and Gentlemen, please put your hands together and welcome, Mr. Jim Heller, President and Head Pastor of the Elan Vital Church of the Latter Day Morons, Denver...'






Modified by Nigel at Sun, Jan 22, 2006, 15:30:31

Previous Recommend Current page Next
Re: What an interesting question! Actually ..
Re: What an interesting question! -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nik ®

01/23/2006, 05:33:01
Author Profile


Alert Forum Admin




It would be simpler than that - the members could simply agree to stop paying Rawat's travel bills.

The constitutional issues would revolve around the election/appointment of a board of trustees. As DLM was created to promote the teachings of Guru Maharaj Ji - arguably the current board is failing because it is not promoting the teachings of the said Guru.

Question  - who does choose the board of the Elan Vital Church ?  and if Prem Rawat has any role in the choosing does that not constitute a compromise of the fiduciary independence of the board when making decisions about financial recompense to Rawat for his travels ?

Nik







Previous Recommend Current page Next