|
|
|
This question reappears often on these Forums: How *could* I have been so foolish/blind/gullible to give my life to Maharaji for so long? I still have not found a good answer, but this little scenario with Nagel's book has refocused my mind sharply on that question. T'is the nature of human life Mike, Christians, Muslims and the Hare Krishnas have been as gullible as us for centuries. Their destraction from reality is more socially acceptable thats all. Its just a made up story all the same. Peter.
|
|
|
|
Peter wrote: "Christians, Muslims and the Hare Krishnas have been as gullible as us for centuries. Their destraction from reality is more socially acceptable thats all." That is only partially true, because there is a major difference: Christians, Muslims and the Hare Krishnas are probably as gullible as the followers of Prem Rawat and Sathya Sai Baba, but following a living charismatic leader such as premies and devotees of SSB do, means an extra and unnecessesary risk. Charismatic leaders are notoriously unpredictable (read e.g. Eileen Barker's book on NRMs and SSB's 1947 letter to his older brother). Prabhupada, who founded Hare Krishna/ISKCON was not really a charismatic leader but a missionary from an orthodox Hindu sect with the greatest authortiy not from guru but from the scriptures of the sect (Gaudiya Vaishnavisa and the Gaudiya Math). Andries (amended for grammar)
Modified by Andries at Fri, Jan 20, 2006, 11:57:21
|
|
|
|
>How *could* I have been so foolish/blind/gullible? It's because you were clever enough, had done the right sort of preparatory reading maybe, to make the logical connections that render guru-theory *just about* believable. When you want to believe something enough, it takes a healthy brain to jump through all the hoops. I've read in several places how surveys of the cult demographic identify above-average intelligence as the norm. We needed that sort of mental dexterity to leap all the absurdity barriers. I remember all the first-timers who came along to introductory satsang, listened once, then departed... We felt sad about their lack of 'understanding', ie. not catching the nuances of what we chosen ones meant by 'the feeling' etc. But that was because they had listened on a common-sense level and heard nonsense. Hurrah for common sense!
|
|
|
|
..last year. He came across my name on the website where I work. He told me that he had come to visit me right after I moved into the ashram. I don't even remember seeing him. Too blind I guess. Anyway he toyed with the idea of dragging me out of there, but figured I wouldn't want to go. It's really amazing how deep so many of us were into this for so long. I guess the best thing we can say is that "we won't get fooled again." Especially as long as there are ex's to post the truth about what really went on. Great post Mike. I always enjoy your writing. Karen P.S. And after 30 something years, Jimmy still makes my heart stir.
|
|
|
|
Mike, what great writing. Just bravo written communication. This is how English works. This is how grammar works to make thoughts and ideas communicate off the page easily and clearly, as opposed to my ramblings. Mike, you DID use your genius in your svelt youth to figure out that he, Balyogeshwar, Santji Maharaj, a/k/a Guru Maharaji JI, as Dick Cavett used to pronounce it, *in fact* WAS the Lord of The Universe come TO YOU DIRECTLY IN PERSON AND PERSONALLY WITH EXTRA PERSONAL DARSHAN FOR JUST YOU, MR. M. FINCH, in the body of a shining, tanned, beautiful lad with a million dollar smile, a laugh, great wit and mechanical genius. It only took just a few adjustments with a mental wrench to just overcome that tripwire in your mental workings and ....voila..... you're in: Devotion like the Hindus. Love like the Beatles. That's the where the *in fact* above got it's spunk. You declared it so. After a gentle, subtle, "sapping" as you say, with and by your friends. How convenient. The words to Arti, found on ex-premie.org, the devotion song sung daily in English and in Hindi by the followers of Guru Maharaji in the 70's in American ashrams and throughout the world, are so telling. So unbelievable. So far out. But that Hindu spice to everything was just too attractive (and especially the subjee and dahl). Whew, who can believe anyone could buy into all that Arti devotion then or today, yet it is still sung. We, as cult members, were so so so so ripe and just wanted the taste of that fruit of belonging, knowing, being one with God, accepted, loved, in with the in crowd. A chance to rub elbows with friggin Rene Davis, Bal Baghwanji, Bob Mishler -- lightweights all, it turns out. You/I/We weren't just swept away, we ourselves did the tinkering with the Way Back Machine in our brain chemistry, somehow. Back, back back to a century where kings ruled from thrones and had courtesans and an inner circle. And heads really rolled. The question, Mike, is how did this framework prosper for so long here in the American plains, the proud midwest of America, our heartland, among our hearty fields of grain and beef, as well as in proper dreary England, sexy Italy, pungent France green Ireland and among the cigarette haze of Greece -- in a hundred places. In America, "American Idol" (ripped off from across the Pond, as usual... is that true?) is now our culture's numer one thing. Here, we have a vast wasteland of a culturally challenged people with no real aim. Inspirational speaking doesn't seem to be doing a thing about anything -- not even in sunny California, where he remains the empty envy of the rich and the realtors. Is he respected [past his own clippings]? I think his CULT LEADER status -- as alleged by so many outside scholars who have studied the subject -- has usurped anything his charitable works now might strive to repair. Talk of philosphy and the like often sends me to a different website quickly, but I'm glad I caught your post. Thanks again.
Modified by OTS at Thu, Jan 19, 2006, 22:43:41
|
|
|
|
I don't feel qualified to attempt an answer to the question myself. However one thing fascinating about a cult is the way it is self-perpetuating--the way members collude to reinforce the group belief. I suggest: turn the problem around--don't ask how was I fooled? but rather how did I work to fool others? Neville B
|
|
|
|
Great responses, thanks! Really helpful actually.Peter: T'is the nature of human life Mike, Christians, Muslims and the Hare Krishnas have been as gullible as us for centuries. Their destraction from reality is more socially acceptable Yep, this is good to know, but I am not sure it is enough to realise merely that there are lots of other people as dumb as I am (hopefully that should be 'dumb as I was' and not 'am', but I will never know until my deathbed). Nigel: It's because you were clever enough, had done the right sort of preparatory reading maybe, to make the logical connections that render guru-theory *just about* believable. When you want to believe something enough, it takes a healthy brain to jump through all the hoops Oh yes, I love this answer. So it was because I was *more* intelligent than average that I fell for the guru! It has to be someone smart to be a premie, to be mentally agile enough to sidestep all the obvious warnings that common sense puts up! Does that mean that those people who are still premies are even smarter than us, who left a while ago? We have left, so we are not quite so smart?! Seriously, I think you have something there, Nigel. Like the Red Queen in Alice, it takes a certain mental skill to believe six impossible things before breakfast. Karen1: I guess the best thing we can say is that "we won't get fooled again." Especially as long as there are ex's to post the truth about what really went on. Right, that is the value of this Forum and others like it, and the ex-premie online presence. But I am not sure that the *best* thing is to say "we won't get fooled again", but to somehow change or tweak whatever it was in our mind so that we really don't get fooled again!! I know what you mean though. My bullshit meter is certainly primed and sensitive these days, and flags up at the first hint of spiritual authority or intellectual pretension. OTS: Great reply, thanks, passionate and on the money for sure. You/I/We weren't just swept away, we ourselves did the tinkering with the Way Back Machine in our brain chemistry, somehow. You're absolutely right, but that is part of the problem, that we did tinker with our 'brain chemistry'. What made us do it, when most people just saw it for the con it was? And even if they *wanted* the same thing we wanted (the Way Back Machine), they still had the sense to see that Maharaji was not the way to get it. ...how did this framework prosper for so long here in the American plains, the proud midwest of America, our heartland, among our hearty fields of grain and beef, as well as in proper dreary England, sexy Italy, pungent France green Ireland and among the cigarette haze of Greece -- in a hundred places. As Peter and you have both said, it prospered (and present tense too, is still prospering) cos it's the nature of human life. But while that is surely an accurate observation, I am not sure it explains it. Neville: However one thing fascinating about a cult is the way it is self-perpetuating--the way members collude to reinforce the group belief. I suggest: turn the problem around--don't ask how was I fooled? but rather how did I work to fool others? Very good point. I fooled others for two reasons I think: one, I was a firm believer and it was 'service' to do so; and two, I had enough communication skill to persuade them. So you're quite right, however I persuaded others to join the cult, it was a similar process that I used on myself to persuade myself. But I was already persuaded myself in order to successfully persuade others. So I think your insight helps explain *how* I persuaded myself, but not *why* I did so.
I realise all this can get tricky and mind boggling, and it soon becomes pointless to regurgitate the past over and over again, thinking 'why did I do that?'. The past is past, and the important thing is to learn from it and move on. But as someone said (Santayana?) "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." So I think there is some value to revisiting it occasionally and examining why we did what we did. Thanks to everyone for indulging me! -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
|
|
|
|
Hi Mike! Thanks for a great post. I don't think we can revisit this question often enough:how could I have been so blind, gullible, foolish etc etc etc. regarding our involvement with premiehood and the "teachings" of then-Maharaji, now-??? I was working on a doctorate in English through those first few years or so of being a premie! Talk about cognitive dissonance! But unintelligent I was not, and it's clear to me, you certainly were not and neither is anyone who regularly posts here, it seems to me. I don't have the definitive answer to this question, either for myself or for anyone else--(how could I have been so gullible?) But I do know that there was a steady stream of premie propoganda going on in certain circles at that time, where I lived, that somehow clicked with the general societal fad of looking for higher consciousness, having a teacher (as fashionable as having a therapist), and all the political unrest of the 60's and 70's that wanted and needed to toss out the received wisdom and discover new horizons! That wasn't bad--and I'm pretty clear about it, that the leading edge of all that unrest was too intelligent for any sitting goverment"s comfort! Student unrest is always a very big threat to those in power who haven't read a book or thought much! It was all very attractive and mesmerizing for a generation of people that really wanted to change things--first from the outside, and then from the inside. M's message was a powerful magnet to bunches of very intelligent but disenchanted people! THis is how I see it anyway, and this is what happened to me. I realised I was not going to be another Bella Abzug or Gloria steinem or whoever, up on the barricades with the guns, so I turned to the inner transformation mode, and bought the message of "inner peace" and transformation of the planet through the promised notion that when YOU are at peace, and everybody else "gets" this, then the world is at peace! I think we can't underestimate the subtle power of that continuous barrage of premie propoganda! It had its own internal consistency, mad as it was. (Thanks Hilltop, for reminding us that we didn't make that up!). Nor can we discount the additional attraction of seeing others who seemed, at least, to be getting a lot from it too! If we practiced and listened and surrendered and meditated ENOUGH, we would get it! We could be glowing and problem-free, like them! In the meantime, we were led to believe that we were already so privileged and advanced to even know about it! (appeal to ego, which we all have). Way far advanced over the ordinary mortals who just plodded along and didn't seem bothered about any ontological questions of the meaning of existence! Talk about hempen homespuns! How could I have been so gullible? Another response to this for me is that, in all honesty, I was dealing with some very difficult life-situations back then as well, and recovering from a lifetime of low-self-esteem and the effects of having spent years in an orphanage. I wanted and needed to belong to something! I needed a parent-figure/teacher/guru. I was good material! I'm not saying this was the usual thing at all. But it was a factor in my case. Besides the heavy Christian conditioning as a child that set me up for looking to higher authority outside myself for just about anything! They say that a mainstream religious education is great preparation for getting into a cult! (The book, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds was an eye-opener for me in this regard!) Well, enough with the psychoanalysis! Perhaps more important, once you have examined the question, is-- what am I doing with what I know now???!!!! All of this has brought me to the conclusion that I can and must trust myself! There isn't any higher authority out there (certainly not one in human form anyway!) that deserves to own my life! I must own it myself, mistakes and all. This is an empowering place to be, and if it took being in a cult to get me here (along with a great many other lessons) then so be it! Perhaps, after all, this isn't about intelligence in the usual, philosophical or intellectual sense--but rather, emotional intelligence? I confess I havent gotten into the whole question of what "emotional intelligence" really means, and I know there's some controversy about that too, but the term seems to suggest that there IS another kind of intelligence that is just as useful to our survial and success as any other kind, and that's something that folks in the educational realm need to pay some attention too. There's the IQ figure--but is the EQ more significant? A child may be brilliant, but if he's abused at home, or neglected, he's going to underachieve abd fall prey to anu number of undesirable things in life. Where is the intelligence then? Any ideas about this, anyone? It's a great question to learn something about oneself! Thanks for bringing it up, Mike! There's always be more to learn as one considers it. ~Shelagh
|
|
|
|
I know for myself I felt there were two realities, the grim one full of bullshit, corruption and mundaness, and the other magical one, the only one where I felt myself, the only place which made any sense to me.
Once I'd grilled my to be wife for 9 months I was pretty certain k was a route to the magical one.
The question which then links into your one is how I allowed the mental sloppiness in as well, and I certainly did alongside the experience.
In my case I'm pretty certain that I became a bliss junkey, and that the more I went into that experience the sloppier I got mentally, mostly because the further I went into that experience the more and more sensitive I got to that 'other reality', the real world one, and the only way I could deal with it was to get more addicted to the bliss and sloppier with my thinking and the specialness that I'd found the way out/past all the bollox..
Of course at the same time I was reading more and more to explain my experiences and unconsciously build up a mapped model of reality starting from Fritjof Capra and a certain person's science satsang at the PoP  , and going further and further until I found myself into Maturana and Varela. Like any good self referential system I completed a loop and found myself back at the start, which didn't crush the reality model, though it did force me to seperate gm from that reality model.
Now looking back on that period I can see the emotional need I had for it to be real, especially the further and further I went with it. probably because I would have had real problems adjusting back to that other reality, but also I suspect because admitting to myself what a bloody idiot I'd been was too difficult to take. The last part I'm certain explains why I took so long to work it through, and more importantly accept the inevitable conclusions.
And isn't that what it's about, emotional weakness when allied to a bright brain leads to intellectual justifications and cover ups for that emotional weakness, which is a form of arrogance, superiority.
And wasn't the certainty of it all part of the attraction, links in with that specialness, which certainly for me was a residue of 60's thinking.
Now sure we also picked up that arrogance from gm, but I don't think it's any accident we ended up with that particular guru.
On a 60's tip, especially from the mystical end I loved the zen koan nature of gm's talks because it so linked in with that 60's concept of 'knowing', a state beyond words, whereas all the other guru's were compromising and playing standard role models in some way, whereas gm was always beyond all that.
|
|
|
|
Modified by Nigel at Fri, Jan 20, 2006, 13:05:54
|
|
|
|
Modified by Jethro at Fri, Jan 20, 2006, 13:51:50
|
|
|
|
Mike, you ask:
Why as a premie did not I exercise my rationality,
critical faculties, objectivity, call it what you will?
Ah, glasshopper, (hic!) - that was because you had been intoxicated
with the promise of the pearl beyond price - enlightenment.
And in that drunken moment, you must have forgotted your inner asinine nature:
Confusedus say:
"Enlightenment often used
as carrot
for some poor ass
to get stick
from guru".
Confusedian School of Hard Knocks say:
"Eventually poor ass become convinced that
enlightenment is only for gurus, and that his/her own enlightenment
is as likely/unlikely as growing an extra leg
(extra nose for specially blessed ones)". Enlightened Confusedian say:
"That's when carrot become simply "not getting the stick"! .
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
ouch. Was that me? Must have been ...
Modified by cq at Fri, Jan 20, 2006, 15:30:23
|
|
|
|
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt and flat tyre. The darkest hours come just before dawn. So if you're going to steal your neighbour's milk and newspaper, that's the time to do it. Never forget that you are unique.... like everyone else.
Never test the depth of the water with both feet.
Before you judge someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you judge them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. Good judgment comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgment. When we are born we are naked, wet, hungry, and we get smacked on the arse. From there on in, it just gets worse. Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know. If at first you don't succeed, avoid skydiving.
troof, conshisness an blish 
Modified by milarepa at Sat, Jan 21, 2006, 10:35:28
|
|
|
|
Now them pearls I like! Thanks, Milarepa! Absolutely not to be cast before swine! ~Shelagh
|
|
|
