I guess it's hard to trust people you don't know and of course here, we are just these faceless beings who type things and put them up.   It's sometimes hard to see things in context, and we don't have the advantage of seeing body language or the kind of back and forth that makes in-person communication so much more complete.

There are ex-premies who have said things that I think are unfair, to me and to others, and the reverse is true as well.  But like I said, I'm very supportive of your openness here, and I realize I can react sometimes when I get what seems to be the standard response all the time, so in future I'll try not to be flippant or sarcastic with you and I do respect what you believe and what is personally important to you in your life.

And this is just a subject that is so close to most people.  I mean, really, I feel pretty detached from it all.  I enjoy the phenomenon of it.  I think it's interesting how people sort out their beliefs and such.

That's why I try to stay away from telling people that they aren't having the experience or the feelings that they say they are having.  I accept that they are telling the truth and I take it at face value, and there isn't any point discussing it anyway because we have no way of knowing what is going on inside someone else, really, although I think if you get to know someone pretty well, you can kind of read what's going on.  I'm that way with my partner, but even then, I'm never really, completely sure.

Well, if you did make a peep. Great -- that's what I was trying to find out.  And maybe I misunderstood your comments to Jim about "what do you want me to do about it" kind of thing.   I think I probably would like you.  You sound like a great person.  I may have even known you in the past for that matter, who knows?  Well, I guess maybe you do and I don't because you know who I am and I don't know who you are.

Look, I was a premie for years.  I loved most of the premies.  They were really the reason I got involved in the first place.  There were some real jerks and maybe I could be that way sometimes, too, but ex-premies kind of come out of that same group, so most of them are pretty cool as well.  But there is this big divide.  I mean, there isn't a divide if the ex-premie doesn't talk about it, but there is if they do, at least with some people.

And I agree with you that if there was some forum or way that all this could get aired, it would make a huge difference.  There has never been any way for a premie or ex-premie or air grievences and that's partly why there is this forum and why I think we are often talking past each other.

Now, I think the responsibility for doing that lies squarely on the shoulders of Prem Rawat, because if he isn't open to doing that, it isn't going to happen.  And he apparently isn't open to it.

I didn't like all premies, and I don't like all ex-premies.  There are a couple of them I have had drag out fights with over politics, and I don't like them much at all.

That's why I tried to steer our discussion to something objective.  Like, what Elan Vital is saying on its website, because that's just an objective thing .  It isn't a matter of whether you are a premie or not, or whether you like Maharaji or not, but since you and I share a lot of the same history, I thought we could talk about that.  The thing is, I have never been able to get a premie to do it.

I know this is not a receptive place for premies.  It's the nature of the beast, I am afraid.  Because this is a forum for ex-premies, and part of being an ex-premie and working through it, is kind of tearing apart all the stuff you used to believe, and why.  That's kind of messy process, and anger is one of the by-products, but it varies a lot from person to person.

And I can't help feeling a little offended that people are saying I'm blinded by hate, when they don't know the first thing about me.   And I know you would probably not like it (understandibly) when people say all premies are alike, they all think the same way, etc.  That goes both ways.

And, finally, I don't know if you know the history, but some of us have been REALLY attacked by premies, in ways that are just plain vicious.  There have been whole websites set up to attack us personally (me included), and somebody even sent a big letter to my employer trying to get me fired, I guess, claiming that I was harassing people.  It was kind of lame, but it really makes you defensive, let me tell you.

Regarding time, believe it or not, I spend very little time on this, and I often have gone for 6 months and never look at this.  My life is pretty full, but I do find this interesting, until I get bored with it and get away from it for awhile.  And I know its exhausting at the beginning.  Especially for you, because everyone is pelting you with questions.  You're doing very well, though.

So, I'm rambling.  Thanks for communicating.